Irresistible Grace in Sanctification?

[Eleanor]

Then we are sanctified by works.

Sorry sister, I had to comment on this again.

I hope you see things differently now?

I do not see my question addressed regarding the meaning of Ro 6:16, i.e., "obedience which leads to righteousness."

It seems you are saying "righteousness which leads to obedience."

 

[Josheb]

Hhmmm. Irresistible grace is taught in scripture as far as God saving His people. And those He chose to save, are (will be) irresistibly saved. You are correct it is not puppet theology.

I am.

If God decides you will stub your toe next Saturday, then every decision you will freely make will conspire to see that you stub your toe next Saturday. God's will and the human will are not mutually exclusive conditions and since God (alone) is sovereign over sin, every decision the enslaved sinner sinfully makes works to God's purpose. Furthermore, if stubbing your toe on Saturday leads, in turn, to conversion then that is in accordance with God's purpose for the stubbing of your toe, and if the stubbing of your toe, conversely, leads you to curse God then that too is in accordance with God's purpose for the stubbing of your toe.

I wonder some times if people actually understand what sanctification is.

Great point because the op is specifically about sanctification and not conversion, the other aspects of salvation, or salvation as a whole. Specifically pertaining to sanctification, it is God alone who first sanctifies and only after conversion from death to life can the regenerate believer contribute to his own sanctification; in Christ, by the Holy Spirit. Throughout the OT God commanded His people to sanctify (purify, consecrate, etc.) themselves in various ways (like washing themselves, or their clothes, or abstaining from idols or sexually immoral behavior, etc.) - all of which the NT tells us could never wash away sin and existed solely as foreshadows of Christ. The NT also makes it repeatedly clear it is God who sanctifies and only after conversion do we read texts like,


James 4:8
Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

1 Timothy 4:4-5
For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

2 Timothy 2:20-21
Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

But these are the exceptions to the rule because the uniform testimony of the New Testament is that is God who sanctifies.

Acts 26:15-18
And I said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in me.'

Romans 15:14-16
And concerning you, my brethren, I myself also am convinced that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge and able also to admonish one another. But I have written very boldly to you on some points so as to remind you again, because of the grace that was given me from God, to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Hebrews 2:11
For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren...

Hebrews 10:8-14
When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.


No sinfully dead and enslaved sinner is ever reported to have sanctified himself from the sin that enslaves and kills him.

 

[Josheb]

But wouldn't that make it synergistic?

The regenerate person is already saved.

Do you believe sanctification is synergistic?

Not prior to conversion.

Just want to make sure I understand you correctly.

See Post #83.


There are huge differences between the still-dead-in-sin enslaved unregenerate unbelieving state and the now-dead-to-sin-alive-in-Christ regenerate believing state. The two should not be conflated or confused. The regenerate believer can do many things impossible for the unregenerate non-believer. If that were not true there would be little value on this side of the grave for those in Christ.

 

[Josheb]

Well once God regenerates we have a new nature.

Yep

Once we have this new nature, it's irresistible, we will not desire and practice sin.

Nope.

God still works in the regenerate to do His will, but we also still disobey God. Even Paul and Peter (along with Ananias, Sapphira, John Mark, Demas and others) is obeyed God after conversion/regeneration. There would be no need for confession, repentance, forgiveness, or reconciliation if there was absolutely no desire to practice sin after conversion to Christ. The epistle of James was written to regenerate, believing converts and he plainly stated,

James 1:14-15
But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

If what James wrote is correct, then "we will not desire and practice sin" is incorrect. There'd be no reason for him to instruct us, "Resist the devil and he will flee" because the devil would have no means of provoking a desire to sin.

None of which changes the truth of,

Philippians 2:12-13
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.


The two are not mutually exclusive conditions but the territory God's will and human will share is much different among those who are objects of wrath and those who are adopted sons and daughters. The latter can do nothing to sanctify themselves, but they can and will bear witness to their own destruction.

 

[prism]

Things aint akways as they sound.

Ok, could you adjust my hearing?

 

[Arial]

Yep

Nope.

God still works in the regenerate to do His will, but we also still disobey God. Even Paul and Peter (along with Ananias, Sapphira, John Mark, Demas and others) is obeyed God after conversion/regeneration. There would be no need for confession, repentance, forgiveness, or reconciliation if there was absolutely no desire to practice sin after conversion to Christ. The epistle of James was written to regenerate, believing converts and he plainly stated,

James 1:14-15
But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

If what James wrote is correct, then "we will not desire and practice sin" is incorrect. There'd be no reason for him to instruct us, "Resist the devil and he will flee" because the devil would have no means of provoking a desire to sin.

None of which changes the truth of,

Philippians 2:12-13
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.


The two are not mutually exclusive conditions but the territory God's will and human will share is much different among those who are objects of wrath and those who are adopted sons and daughters. The latter can do nothing to sanctify themselves, but they can and will bear witness to their own destruction.

I see it as God's sovereignty and man's responsibility not being mutually exclusive. God works in us to conform us to the image of Christ----sanctification in the sense of an ongoing growth, rather than the first and sanctification of being set apart as holy by being placed in Christ and having His righteousness counted as ours. He gives us instructions in righteousness, stated as imperatives of the child of God rather than as laws, and it is from this word that we learn. If we neglect His word we don't learn. It is our responsibility to listen to Him and obey Him, it is our duty to Him. But are not the ones who are the first cause of our obedience, God is, and we cooperate with what His word teaches, because He is the author and finisher of our faith. We are not our own. we are Christs. Even bearing the consequences of our sins is His correction and discipline.

 

[Carbon]

Ok, could you adjust my hearing?

Would you explain where it is synergistic?

 

[Carbon]

Yep

I'm glad we agree.

Nope.

God still works in the regenerate to do His will, but we also still disobey God. Even Paul and Peter (along with Ananias, Sapphira, John Mark, Demas and others) is obeyed God after conversion/regeneration. There would be no need for confession, repentance, forgiveness, or reconciliation if there was absolutely no desire to practice sin after conversion to Christ. The epistle of James was written to regenerate, believing converts and he plainly stated,

I think you may be carrying it a bit too far. Romans 7, considering the law of sin. Paul says how he does the things he does not want to do, and the things he wants to do, he does not do.
17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

See, here is the new nature.
Consider Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
The unregenerate do not delight in the law of God.

God is always working in the regenerate to conform the person into the image of Christ . Matter of fact, we wouldn't be fully redeemed if we were merely delivered from the guilt of sin in justification.

The two are not mutually exclusive conditions but the territory God's will and human will share is much different among those who are objects of wrath and those who are adopted sons and daughters.

Obviously.

The latter can do nothing to sanctify themselves,

Right. Nor do they. God does it all.

but they can and will bear witness to their own destruction.

 

[Carbon]

If God decides you will stub your toe next Saturday, then every decision you will freely make will conspire to see that you stub your toe next Saturday. God's will and the human will are not mutually exclusive conditions and since God (alone) is sovereign over sin, every decision the enslaved sinner sinfully makes works to God's purpose. Furthermore, if stubbing your toe on Saturday leads, in turn, to conversion then that is in accordance with God's purpose for the stubbing of your toe, and if the stubbing of your toe, conversely, leads you to curse God then that too is in accordance with God's purpose for the stubbing of your toe.

Not sure what this has to do with the op?

Great point because the op is specifically about sanctification and not conversion,

I know it's about sanctification.

the other aspects of salvation, or salvation as a whole. Specifically pertaining to sanctification, it is God alone who first sanctifies

God alone who "first sanctifies?" Do you believe there are 2end and third times, etc.? Would you explain?

and only after conversion from death to life can the regenerate believer contribute to his own sanctification;

In salvation, the regenerate does not contribute. If the regenerate contributes we are not saved by grace alone.

in Christ, by the Holy Spirit. Throughout the OT God commanded His people to sanctify (purify, consecrate, etc.) themselves in various ways (like washing themselves, or their clothes, or abstaining from idols or sexually immoral behavior, etc.) - all of which the NT tells us could never wash away sin and existed solely as foreshadows of Christ. The NT also makes it repeatedly clear it is God who sanctifies and only after conversion do we read texts like,

Sanctification -> 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. Eze 36:25-27.

15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. John 17.

No sinfully dead and enslaved sinner is ever reported to have sanctified himself from the sin that enslaves and kills him.

Obviously the unsaved have no part in anything concerning salvation. Scripture also teaches that even the regenerate have no part in their sanctification either.

 

[Carbon]

There are huge differences between the still-dead-in-sin enslaved unregenerate unbelieving state and the now-dead-to-sin-alive-in-Christ regenerate believing state. The two should not be conflated or confused. The regenerate believer can do many things impossible for the unregenerate non-believer. If that were not true there would be little value on this side of the grave for those in Christ.

I'm really not sure why you are saying this, I thought it was obvious we agree here.

Where I think we disagree is on sanctification. As I believe it is monergistic.

 

[prism]

Would you explain where it is synergistic?

Ok, I was thinking of a young ox being yoked to an experienced ox; both work together.

 

[Carbon]

Ok, I was thinking of a young ox being yoked to an experienced ox; both work together.

who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. Titus 2:14.

Christ has done it. He did not set it up for us to work with him.

 

[Carbon]

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 2 Thess 2:13.

Does anyone disagree with Paul here?

Or here?
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love4 Eph 1:4.

Are you not holy from what Christ has done? Do we need to work with God now to achieve that? Did not God choose us in Christ to be holy? I think we shouldn't take lightly this precious revealed truth of God's word - an election of God's people unto holiness here and glory hereafter.

Are some of us subject to a preconceived system and haven't done a serious study of God's word concerning sanctification?

Why it has pleased God to call people in this way, is of God's secret council. “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. Deut 29:29. It may be difficult to understand or explain, but God is the best defender and apologist of His sacred truth.

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. Ez 36:26. Isn't the Holy Spirit the efficient cause of all holiness in the believer? Isn't the foundation of sanctification the removal of the stony heart and the being born of the spirit?
And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor 6:11.
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 2 Thess 2:13.

It also puzzles me how the reformed believe God monergistically, predestines, calls, regenerates, justifies and finally glorifies. All parts of the ordo salutis except for sanctification.

 

[Marilyn C]

If God decides you will stub your toe next Saturday, then every decision you will freely make will conspire to see that you stub your toe next Saturday. God's will and the human will are not mutually exclusive conditions and since God (alone) is sovereign over sin, every decision the enslaved sinner sinfully makes works to God's purpose. Furthermore, if stubbing your toe on Saturday leads, in turn, to conversion then that is in accordance with God's purpose for the stubbing of your toe, and if the stubbing of your toe, conversely, leads you to curse God then that too is in accordance with God's purpose for the stubbing of your toe.

So, what about God being `sorry` that He made man on the earth, if as you say that `every decision the enslaved sinner sinfully makes works to God`s purpose.`

`Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He grieved in His heart.` (Gen. 8: 5 & 6)

 

[prism]

who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. Titus 2:14.

Christ has done it. He did not set it up for us to work with him.

Does that also mean we receive the same rewards in sanctification? If He works alone why would there be a difference, or is there no such thing? (just thinking out loud).

 

[Josheb]

I see it as God's sovereignty and man's responsibility not being mutually exclusive. God works in us to conform us to the image of Christ----sanctification in the sense of an ongoing growth, rather than the first and sanctification of being set apart as holy by being placed in Christ and having His righteousness counted as ours. He gives us instructions in righteousness, stated as imperatives of the child of God rather than as laws, and it is from this word that we learn. If we neglect His word we don't learn. It is our responsibility to listen to Him and obey Him, it is our duty to Him. But are not the ones who are the first cause of our obedience, God is, and we cooperate with what His word teaches, because He is the author and finisher of our faith. We are not our own. we are Christs. Even bearing the consequences of our sins is His correction and discipline.

I like to discriminate between culpability, responsibility, and accountability. Sinfully dead people are culpable and accountable while they will be held responsible, they are not response-able. They cannot respond, so God must make them/us able to respond (cognitively, volitionally, and behaviorally). We monergists believe this "making" all occurs solely by God and nothing of ourselves and it is only after regeneration, or conversion from death to life, that we are response- able. Arminius hypothesized an intermediate moment when God rendered the still-dead unregenerate non-believer able to believe and then respond (but it's merely a hypothesis made possible by a certain inferential reading of scripture), and the Pelagian-influenced models deny the inability to respond.

Now I gotta ask two questions:

1) Who is the "we" in that post? (the still dead human or the regenerate huma?)

2) We're talking about irresistible grace (God's effectiveness) in sanctification, right?

 

[Josheb]

I think you may be carrying it a bit too far.

Clarify that for me. What, specifically, am I thought to be taking too far?

Romans 7 clearly states Paul could still see the law of sin and death at work in his being. he did not understand all that he did and often hated it. Writing with hyperbole he said nothing good dwelt in him (and he used present-tense language). On one hand he sees God at work in his mind, and on the other he sees the law of sin at work in his flesh.

However, I wasn't referring to Romans 7. I was referring to the "thorn" in his side (2 Cor. 12:7). If you look up the phrase "thorn" in someone's side in the Old Testament it will be seen that a thorn in the side was an idiom used for judgment. God told the Israelites they were to drive out the inhabitants of the promised land lest they be a thorn in Israel's side. I Judges God tells them He will no longer drive out the Gentiles so they will become a thorn in Israel's side. In Ezekiel there is the promise no will become a thorn to Israel. In Hosea thorns would overgrow the altar. In Isaiah God promised Assyria would hide in thorns and shave Israelites' heads and genitals only later to have Israel become a thorn to the Assyrians.

This is the idiom Paul is using when he said he was given a thorn in his flesh to prevent him from becoming conceited. Paul describes that "thorn" as a messenger from satan, but we know satan does nothing without God's consent and even if satan is released into a person's life God has promised to work all things for good in the lives of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (like Paul). Paul was either already conceited, or at risk of becoming conceited. Either way it is an indication of a problem, an imperfect person. We also know Paul judged others harshly. He often complains about people abandoning him but at least two of those he complains about were sent away by God. As far as Ananias and Sapphira go, they are treated as converts to Christ. Nowhere is their salvation questioned; only their deceitfulness. Throughout the epistles we read of converts to Christs, those called bondservants and saint, those who are said to believe in Christ and the Holy Spirit, doing abhorrent things (like having sex with dad's wife ). In Galatians, we read about Paul confronting Peter for his double-minded hypocrisy: behaving one way with Jewish converts, another way with Gentil converts. Even Barnabas was carried away by his hypocrisy. Not only does James necessarily imply there are desires in Christians that entice and drag them away, he admonishes his readers not to continue showing class deference. In one of my favorite NT passages, 2 Pet. 1:3-9, Peter tells his readers they already have everything they need to live a godly life and partake in the divine nature BUT they must add a bunch of stuff to their faith, and the reason they fail to do so is because they have forgotten their sanctification.

2 Peter 1:1-9
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.

So conversion does not make a person perfect. Christ has washed us clean, but we must collaborate with the Spirit to maintain that cleanliness through confession, repentance, forgiveness, etc., and the reading of the word and prayer.


And if that's not what you think I'm carrying too far then clarify it for me.

 

[Carbon]

Does that also mean we receive the same rewards in sanctification? If He works alone why would there be a difference, or is there no such thing? (just thinking out loud).

Not sure what you mean, sorry.

 

[Josheb]

Not sure what this has to do with the op?

I was asked if I was sure, it was not robot theology. I am sure and I explained dhow it is not robot theology.

I know it's about sanctification. God alone who "first sanctifies?" Do you believe there are 2end and third times, etc.? Would you explain?

Scripture provides multiple explanations and means of sanctification. I quoted at least six of them so I am not sure why this question is being asked (it was answered before it was asked). For example, Hebrews 10 tells us we were sanctified by the offering of Christ's body. If that is a reference to Calvary then that sanctification occurred prior to any of us ever hearing the gospel, long before we were regenerated. Conversely, Paul told Timothy those who cleanse themselves from dishonorable things is useful to God.

In salvation, the regenerate does not contribute.

Hmmm... let me make sure I have this correct. Am I to understand you to be saying regeneration does not contribute to a person's post-salvation sanctification? If so then I disagree because Jms. 4:8, 1 Tim. 4:4-5, and 2 Tim. 2:20-21 are not possible apart from regeneration and no unregenerate person does those things.

If the regenerate contributes we are not saved by grace alone.

Not sure why I have to repeat this: the regenerate person is already saved.

I did not say the unregenerate person can or does contribute anything to his sanctification. I explicitly stated such a person CANNOT respond to God and nowhere does scripture ever report any dead-in-sin non-believer sanctifying himself. Regeneration is monergistic. Regeneration is saved by grace alone.

Sanctification -> 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. Eze 36:25-27.

15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. John 17.


Obviously the unsaved have no part in anything concerning salvation.

Which is what I said.

Scripture also teaches that even the regenerate have no part in their sanctification either.

Which is what I said.

If that was not understood, then go back and re-read the posts.

 

[prism]

Not sure what you mean, sorry.

No prob. you had said...
"Christ has done it. He did not set it up for us to work with him."
So I was wondering has he done all our sanctification, even so that we will all be rewarded the same?