If your church discusses Social Justice

[Carbon]

I am aware of the Scriptures that mentions returning to Earth with the Raptured Saints, but different belief systems look at it differently. Especially the terminology.

I don’t believe in a rapture like that. But that’s another story.

 

[Arial]

Sounds simple doesn't it, instead of bickering over Arminianism, Calvinism, and a number of other things that distract and separate Christians from each other when they should be uniting. especially in this day and age.

Ahhh. The eleventh commandment. "Be Nice."

Ignore Jude 1:3 Beloved, although I was every eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for delivered to the saints.

1 Tim 4:1-5 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word;be ready in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arise among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, brining upon themselves swift destruction.

Eph 4:14 So that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

 

[CrowCross]

How is my preference related to a what a transsexual's choice? Or even more pertinent why should I take offense if of a transsexual's pronoun choice?

Because it's all

 

[Hobie]

Is this considered getting political? I'm all for everyone being treated the same, it's what Jesus wanted to see. But I feel this crosses the line, as I feel churches should not get involved with any political movements.

It is like all the 'isms', a distraction from the true gospel. Communism sounds good, till you see it in practice. It is of men, not of God, so fails spiritually...

 

[CrowCross]

No I do not and would not. And that does not mean that I do not believe that all people have equal value as created by God, or that any should be treated as inferior based on---anything. Or discriminated against based on social standing, race, religion etc. But those things are taught in the Bible. The Bible also teaches what is sin, and that trumps culture. The gospel is about who Jesus is and what He did and how He did it. The Bible is about who God is and who we are as His creatures. And it is the word of God churches should be teaching. The moral aspects are an outflow of those things, and are learned from the scriptures and accomplished in the believer by the Holy Spirit working in them to do.

Have you heard of the CRT....clergy response team?

 

[Frank Robert]

What does the Bible have to say about "gender identity?"

The Bible doesn't address the concept of gender identity as understood in contemporary terms. Christian denominations have varying interpretations in determining how ancient texts can be applied to gender identity and other contemporary issues and how to balance the teachings with compassion and understanding for all individuals. A current example are discussions in the Catholic Church on how to be inclusive for transsexual people. See:

List of Christian denominations affirming LGBT people - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Frank Robert]

Sounds simple doesn't it, instead of bickering over Arminianism, Calvinism, and a number of other things that distract and separate Christians from each other when they should be uniting. especially in this day and age.

Catholics acknowledge Protestants as Christian brothers, but many denominations don’t even extend the same courtesy among themselves.

 

[Frank Robert]

Because it's all

So loving thy neighbor is all

You learn something new every day

 

[Arial]

The Bible doesn't address the concept of gender identity as understood in contemporary terms. Christian denominations have varying interpretations in determining how ancient texts can be applied to gender identity and other contemporary issues and how to balance the teachings with compassion and understanding for all individuals. A current example are discussions in the Catholic Church on how to be inclusive for transsexual people. See:

List of Christian denominations affirming LGBT people - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It most certainly does address it. And contemporary terms have nothing to do with it. God is the authority on the matter, and therefore His Word is the authority. Culture does not interpret the Bible, and certainly has no authority or ability to change what God says in order to rationalize what He directly and without equivocation defines as sin against Him. He defines that. Not His creatures.

And what differing denominations and their varying interpretations on how ancient texts can be applied to gender identity and contemporary issues has no bearing of it. When they use this in order to justify what is clearly stated as sin, it is only showing they are still at enmity with God, with a greater desire for their sin than they have for God and His righteousness and His holiness. It it nothing more that sinning themselves and teaching others to sin. And the millstone will be hung around their neck.

God is the Creator. We are not. At creation He created a man. And from the man He took bone and created for him a help mate and she was called woman. Flesh of his flesh. United as one flesh. That is one husband, man, one wife, woman. The Mosaic Law confirms this, the ten commandments confirm this, Jesus confirmed this. This is how He created us to be. Anything outside that he specifically through identification of what He is saying, He pronounces an abomination. (Lev 18:22; Romans 1:18-32; Jude 1:7; 1 Cor 6:9-10;1 Tim 1:9-10; Mark 10:6-9; 1 Cor 7:2; Gen 1:27; Matt 19:4-6)

Calling a dog a bird does not make it a bird and never will. Identifying one's gender as something other than it is, does not make it what it is not. Doing so and trying to find a way in the Bible to make it true and ok is refusing to submit to the God who made you.

 

[Arial]

Have you heard of the CRT....clergy response team?

Do you mean in the Southern Baptist Convention of a couple of years ago? If so, I have heard excerpts from it and the the way in which it was pushed through by lumping it together with other things at the end without debate. Many pastors withdrew from the Convention because of it.

 

[CrowCross]

So loving thy neighbor is all

You learn something new every day

There is nothing wrong with loving your neighbor. The bible speaks of that....in fact the bible speaks of more than that. But then again you already knew that.

 

[Frank Robert]

It most certainly does address it. And contemporary terms have nothing to do with it. God is the authority on the matter, and therefore His Word is the authority. Culture does not interpret the Bible, and certainly has no authority or ability to change what God says in order to rationalize what He directly and without equivocation defines as sin against Him. He defines that. Not His creatures.

Thanks for demonstrating the difference between a literal approach and the historical critical method of Biblical interpretation.

And what differing denominations and their varying interpretations on how ancient texts can be applied to gender identity and contemporary issues has no bearing of it.

Why do so many protestant denominations disagree with you?

List of Christian denominations affirming LGBT people - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

When they use this in order to justify what is clearly stated as sin, it is only showing they are still at enmity with God, with a greater desire for their sin than they have for God and His righteousness and His holiness. It it nothing more that sinning themselves and teaching others to sin. And the millstone will be hung around their neck.

You don't need to preach, I am not on a campaign to change your opinion.

God is the Creator. We are not. At creation He created a man. And from the man He took bone and created for him a help mate and she was called woman. Flesh of his flesh. United as one flesh. That is one husband, man, one wife, woman. The Mosaic Law confirms this, the ten commandments confirm this, Jesus confirmed this. This is how He created us to be. Anything outside that he specifically through identification of what He is saying, He pronounces an abomination. (Lev 18:22; Romans 1:18-32; Jude 1:7; 1 Cor 6:9-10;1 Tim 1:9-10; Mark 10:6-9; 1 Cor 7:2; Gen 1:27; Matt 19:4-6)

Sounds like you never heard of individual differences. I am not denying that God created us. I am saying that God created us with a human psyche that is shaped by many influences such as cognitive development, socialization, personal experiences and biological influences which play a crucial role in the formation and expression of gender identity.

Calling a dog a bird does not make it a bird and never will. Identifying one's gender as something other than it is, does not make it what it is not. Doing so and trying to find a way in the Bible to make it true and ok is refusing to submit to the God who made you.

I agree a dog is not a bird. Are you aware that gender expression is not unique to humans? Many species project an opposite-sex appearance that doesn’t “match” their biological sex. Snakes, lizards, beetles, fish, and birds, to name a few, all exhibit “transgender” behaviors.

 

[Arial]

Why do so many protestant denominations disagree with you?

Because they are compromising the Bible for the sake of culture. Let me give you an example. Israel dwelled in a pagan Egypt for over 400 years, and took on much of the culture they lived in, forgetting their God. They were taken into another land where other cultures utterly alien to their own, and to the one God was establishing through the Mosaic covenant with its laws. He did not change, no matter how much they had. And He destroyed those cultures who lived contrary to His holiness and commands.

The Israelites were surrounded by other cultures even when they possessed the land. He warned them to not worship their gods, or commit the abominations they committed. God Himself told them what those abominations were, which included sexual abominations. God did not give them permission to take on those cultural aspects that were against His law. He did not change or compromise for the sake of anything.

The Israelites did not listen and began doing the same things as the culture around them. What did God do? Did He change or did He send judgement? Since the cross, there have been constant cultural changes in the world. The 1950's cultural norms were different than the 40's. the 60's than the 50's and so on and so on. Did God change with any of those changes? Visible churches are not God. so what they do is not how we measure the word of God. Everything built on a different foundation than the one laid by Jesus and the apostles----which is the foundation given by God----will be burned up in the judgement. (1 Cor 3:11-15) The only thing that will remain is Jesus Christ. And that means all that He is, and said, and did, not "Yes Jesus, but only those things I am willing to accept and that do not interfere with my fleshly desires." If that is the way a person looks at it, then Jesus is not their Lord.

 

[Arial]

You don't need to preach, I am not on a campaign to change your opinion.

You brought up the subject and the most not nice thing I could do under the circumstances, the coldest, most hard hearted, uncaring and indifferent thing I could do is to not speak the truth that exposes the error, in hopes that you or others will hear it and believe it. It would be worse than if I knew someone's brakes were bad, and also knew that they were headed down many mountain roads, and instead of telling them their brakes were bad and would not hold, I shrugged my shoulders and said, "I guess he will find out for himself."

I can't make anyone believe and that is not my job. My job is to tell and warn.

Sounds like you never heard of individual differences. I am not denying that God created us. I am saying that God created us with a human psyche that is shaped by many influences such as cognitive development, socialization, personal experiences and biological influences which play a crucial role in the formation and expression of gender identity.

None of which turns wrong into right.

I agree a dog is not a bird. Are you aware that gender expression is not unique to humans? Many species project an opposite-sex appearance that doesn’t “match” their biological sex. Snakes, lizards, beetles, fish, and birds, to name a few, all exhibit “transgender” behaviors.

You would need to define what you mean by transgender behaviors. But that aside, we are not a snake, or lizard, or beetle, or fish etc. We are God's only creation created in His image and likeness. Those aren't just words.

 

[Frank Robert]

Because they are compromising the Bible for the sake of culture.
Let me give you an example. Israel dwelled in a pagan Egypt for over 400 years, and took on much of the culture they lived in, forgetting their God. They were taken into another land where other cultures utterly alien to their own, and to the one God was establishing through the Mosaic covenant with its laws. He did not change, no matter how much they had. And He destroyed those cultures who lived contrary to His holiness and commands.

The Israelites were surrounded by other cultures even when they possessed the land. He warned them to not worship their gods, or commit the abominations they committed. God Himself told them what those abominations were, which included sexual abominations. God did not give them permission to take on those cultural aspects that were against His law. He did not change or compromise for the sake of anything.

The Israelites did not listen and began doing the same things as the culture around them. What did God do? Did He change or did He send judgement? Since the cross, there have been constant cultural changes in the world. The 1950's cultural norms were different than the 40's. the 60's than the 50's and so on and so on. Did God change with any of those changes? Visible churches are not God. so what they do is not how we measure the word of God. Everything built on a different foundation than the one laid by Jesus and the apostles----which is the foundation given by God----will be burned up in the judgement. (1 Cor 3:11-15) The only thing that will remain is Jesus Christ. And that means all that He is, and said, and did, not "Yes Jesus, but only those things I am willing to accept and that do not interfere with my fleshly desires." If that is the way a person looks at it, then Jesus is not their Lord.

I think you described the main problem for so many protestant denominations. When people are told that they are able interpret the Bible for themselves even when it comes to faith and morals they cherry-pick Bible verses for their own purposes which can easily misrepresent what the biblical authors intended to communicate. A Catholic Philosopher, whose name I can't recall, described it as having 600,000 Popes.

You brought up the subject and the most not nice thing I could do under the circumstances, the coldest, most hard hearted, uncaring and indifferent thing I could do is to not speak the truth that exposes the error, in hopes that you or others will hear it and believe it. It would be worse than if I knew someone's brakes were bad, and also knew that they were headed down many mountain roads, and instead of telling them their brakes were bad and would not hold, I shrugged my shoulders and said, "I guess he will find out for himself."

I appreciate your efforts, but I think even the most ardent Bible readers would tell you to seek medical attention when you are in poor health. A child or an adult who is in distress over their gender should likewise seek appropriate mental health attention. Unfortunately, reading Bible verses will not help such a person nor is it being compassionate. Psychotherapy has shown to successfully help many individuals with their gender identity without needing hormone based medical therapy or gender affirmation surgery.

I can't make anyone believe and that is not my job. My job is to tell and warn.

None of which turns wrong into right.

You would need to define what you mean by transgender behaviors. But that aside, we are not a snake, or lizard, or beetle, or fish etc.

You are the one who brought up animals.

We are God's only creation created in His image and likeness. Those aren't just words.

I believe you mean well and like you I believe that religion can play a role however people experiencing gender distress need appropriate professional help.

 

[Eleanor]

Is this considered getting political? I'm all for everyone being treated the same, it's what Jesus wanted to see. But I feel this crosses the line, as I feel churches should not get involved with any political movements.

Well, for starters, there is no "social" justice, nor "economic" justice, nor "racial" justice.

There is only justice under the law, where everyone is treated according to the law.
Injustice is what is not according to law.

Equal justice is based on equitable law. Make the law equitable--on its footing, not its outcome.

So if you are going to discuss it in church, discuss it in relation to the law.
If there is no violation of law equitable on its footing, then there is no injustice.

 

[Arial]

I think you described the main problem for so many protestant denominations. When people are told that they are able interpret the Bible for themselves even when it comes to faith and morals they cherry-pick Bible verses for their own purposes which can easily misrepresent what the biblical authors intended to communicate. A Catholic Philosopher, whose name I can't recall, described it as having 600,000 Popes.

So you believe in mind control? People should be told what to think?

I appreciate your efforts, but I think even the most ardent Bible readers would tell you to seek medical attention when you are in poor health. A child or an adult who is in distress over their gender should likewise seek appropriate mental health attention. Unfortunately, reading Bible verses will not help such a person nor is it being compassionate. Psychotherapy has shown to successfully help many individuals with their gender identity without needing hormone based medical therapy or gender affirmation surgery.

You have changed the subject. The subject was your assertion that God's words are not fixed and eternal but can and must be adapted to the culture.

You are the one who brought up animals.

As an example of the nature of a thing not being able to change itself. As you well know. So I see you have no intention of having an honest, linear and cognizant conversation.

 

[Frank Robert]

So you believe in mind control? People should be told what to think?

The historical-critical method record is there for everyone to discern for themselves. Nothing to hide and no mind control. It is a method so everyone can be on the same page. It is not the only method used

Compare that to hundreds of Christian denominations who are unable to agree among themselves.

Your only argument against it is your belief in a simple literal reading of the Bible that spawned hundreds if not thousands of varying conclusions resulting in hundreds of conflicting denominations.

You have changed the subject. The subject was your assertion that God's words are not fixed and eternal but can and must be adapted to the culture.

I think a lot of the misunderstanding is about what Catholics are arguing. We are not arguing over God's words in the Bible, what Catholics are saying is "cherry-picking the Bible is not an option for Catholics"

As an example of the nature of a thing not being able to change itself. As you well know. So I see you have no intention of having an honest, linear and cognizant conversation.

And I provided examples of animals that change their appearance when it is advantageous for them to do so.

You appear to have an incorrect idea about trans people and also what I think about them. I do not believe that they can change their gender or that any amount of surgery will change their gender. What they can change is their feelings and self-image even w/o surgery. To do so they need appropriate age related mental health attention. As Christians we believe prayers are helpful so we should pray for them in the same way we pray for the sick. If they are open to it we can help them understand the Bible.

Here is a good resource.

What Does the Bible Say About Transgender People?

 

[Frank Robert]

Because it's all

Perhaps for you, not so much for others.

 

[Frank Robert]

Because they are compromising the Bible for the sake of culture.

That is the problem in a nutshell.-- A misunderstanding of Biblical studies.

There is nothing wrong with loving your neighbor. The bible speaks of that....in fact the bible speaks of more than that. But then again you already knew that.

You previous post says it all.