I chose God..Or God chose me...

[Eleanor]

We don't know that it was intermittent in all cases.

Do we know that it was not?

 

[David1701]

Justification by faith apart from works being
a declaration by God of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a finding of right standing with the Court; i.e., penalty paid, time served, no debt owing,
and forensic righteousness imputed.

Correct; although, I have the feeling that misunderstood something in my post, since you felt the need to post this.

 

[David1701]

Do we know that it was not?

You declared that the Holy Spirit being within some people, in the OC, was intermittent. This means that the burden of proof lies with you.

 

[fastfredy0]

The OT saints were regenerated by the Holy Spirit, but not indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

I think the crux of the discussion is the need for a definition of INDWELT.

intransitive verb​

1. To exist as an animating or divine inner spirit, force, or principle.
2. To be located or implanted inside something.
3. To inhabit or reside within as such a spirit, force, or principle.

God is omnipresent so He indwells everyone in the sense of the definition above. Acts 17:28 For in Him we live and move and exist [that is, in Him we actually have our being] AMP

The Biblical definition I've heard suggested is .... "in a person to benefit". (but even that is obtuse)
We can suggest ideas about INDWELLING forever, but a foundational definition would be a good starting point IMO though even a definition would be subjective.

Aside: I liked @David1701 Old Testament examples.

 

[Ritajanice]

I like GOT answers...

​

What is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?​

ANSWER

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the action by which God takes up permanent residence in the body of a believer in Jesus Christ. In the Old Testament, the Spirit would come and go from the saints, empowering them for service but not necessarily remaining with them (see Judges 15:14; 1 Chronicles 12:18; Psalm 51:11; Ezekiel 11:5). Jesus revealed to His disciples the new role the Spirit of Truth would play in their lives: “He lives with you and will be in you” (John 14:17). The apostle Paul wrote, “Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies” (1 Corinthians 6:19–20).

These verses are telling us that the believer in Jesus Christ has the third Person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, living in him. When an individual accepts Christ as personal Savior, the Holy Spirit gives the believer the life of God, eternal life, which is really His very nature (Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:4), and the Holy Spirit comes to live within him spiritually. The fact that the believer’s body is likened to a temple where the Holy Spirit lives helps us understand what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is all about. The word temple is used to describe the Holy of Holies, the inner sanctum in the Old Testament tabernacle structure. There, God’s presence would appear in a cloud and meet the high priest, who came once a year into the Holy of Holies. On the Day of Atonement, the high priest brought the blood of a slain animal and sprinkled it on the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant. On this special day, God granted forgiveness to the priest and His people.

Today, there is no Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and the animal sacrifices have ceased. The believer in Christ has become the inner sanctum of God the Holy Spirit, as the believer has been sanctified and forgiven by the blood of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:7). The believer in Christ becomes the habitation of the Holy Spirit of God. In fact, Scripture also says that the believer is indwelt spiritually by Christ (Colossians 1:27) and by God the Father (1 John 4:15)—the Trinity is involved.

As the Holy Spirit lives in the believer, He brings about some life-changing results:

1) The indwelling Spirit comes to a soul dead in sin and creates new life (Titus 3:5). This is the new birth Jesus spoke of in John 3:1–8.

2) The indwelling Spirit confirms to the believer that he belongs to the Lord and is an heir of God and fellow-heir with Christ (Romans 8:15–17).

3) The indwelling Spirit installs the new believer as a member of Christ’s universal church. This is the baptism of the Spirit, according to 1 Corinthians 12:13.

4) The indwelling Spirit gives spiritual gifts (God-given abilities for service) to the believer to edify the church and serve the Lord effectively for His glory (1 Corinthians 12:11).

5) The indwelling Spirit helps the believer understand and apply the Scripture to his daily life (1 Corinthians 2:12).

6) The indwelling Spirit enriches the believer’s prayer life and intercedes for him in prayer (Romans 8:26–27).

7) The indwelling Holy Spirit empowers the yielded believer to live for Christ to do His will (Galatians 5:16). The Spirit leads the believer in paths of righteousness (Romans 8:14).

8) The indwelling Spirit gives evidence of new life by producing the fruit of the Spirit in the believer’s life (Galatians 5:22–23).

9) The indwelling Spirit is grieved when the believer sins (Ephesians 4:30), and He convicts the believer to confess his sin to the Lord so that fellowship is restored (1 John 1:9).

10) The indwelling Spirit seals the believer unto the day of redemption so that the believer’s arrival in the Lord’s presence is guaranteed after this life (Ephesians 1:13–14).

When you accept Christ as your Savior (Romans 10:9–13), the Holy Spirit takes up residence in your heart, bringing with Him an entirely new life of love, relationship, and service to the Lord.

 

[Ladodgers6]

According to Jesus, is it not by totally sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:3-8)?

Yes, but it comes through the proclamation of the Gospel, and the Holy Spirit bearing witness to it.

 

[fastfredy0]

What is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

(see Judges 15:14; 1 Chronicles 12:18; Psalm 51:11; Ezekiel 11:5)

Interesting article. I did not see any verse saying the Spirit stopped indwelling an O.T. saint. I see verses saying the Spirit empowered OT saints in a particular way at a particular time (as He does us) and I see David asking that the Spirit not be taken away which implies it is possible, but only "implies".

At https://www.ligonier.org/podcasts/ask-ligonier/did-the-holy-spirit-indwell-old-testament-believers
Dr. Ferguson, did the Holy Spirit indwell believers in the Old Testament?

DR. SINCLAIR FERGUSON: Nathan, that's a really good question and I think it's one that is very often asked. And I think the reason it's asked is because first of all, there's not a single clear statement, I don't think, in the Bible anywhere that gives us the answer.
....
So, to back up, I think I would say this, that unless the Holy Spirit had dwelt in believers in the Old Testament, they couldn't have come to faith. If the Holy Spirit did not dwell in believers in the Old Testament, then the fruit of the Spirit would not have been produced in them.
But when the New Testament describes these things, it often uses Old Testament illustrations and examples. So, I would say the Holy Spirit did indwell believers under the old covenant. The difference is not so much in His indwelling but in the manner of their experience of Him and their knowledge of Him. In the new covenant, because of the coming of our Lord Jesus, we have a clearer view of who the Holy Spirit is and we have a richer experience of Him.

yahda, yahda

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, but it comes through the proclamation of the Gospel, and the Holy Spirit bearing witness to it.

We have nothing to do with our rebirth, absolutely nothing, just as we have nothing to do with our physical birth, absolutely nothing.
The new birth comes by nothing but the totally sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:3-8).

Also justification is a declaration by God of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a legal finding of right standing with the Court; i.e., penalty paid, time served, no debt owing.

It is a forensic righteousness, the result of salvation; i.e., the remission of one's sin through faith, and salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on sin.

Actual righteousness by sanctification is through obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19).

Christ, our righteousness in that his righteousness on the cross being what removed our unrighteousness.

 

[Eleanor]

You declared that the Holy Spirit being within some people, in the OC, was intermittent. This means that the burden of proof lies with you.

Jn 16:7.

 

[Eleanor]

I think the crux of the discussion is the need for a definition of INDWELT.

intransitive verb​

1. To exist as an animating or divine inner spirit, force, or principle.
2. To be located or implanted inside something.
3. To inhabit or reside within as such a spirit, force, or principle.

God is omnipresent so He indwells everyone in the sense of the definition above. Acts 17:28 For in Him we live and move and exist [that is, in Him we actually have our being] AMP

The Biblical definition I've heard suggested is .... "in a person to benefit". (but even that is obtuse)
We can suggest ideas about INDWELLING forever, but a foundational definition would be a good starting point IMO though even a definition would be subjective.

Aside: I liked @David1701 Old Testament examples.

You Baptists are so-o-o picky.

For starters, "indwelt, indwelling" are not in Scripture.

What is in Scripture is "dwell;" i.e., to inhabit as one's abode (Ro 8:9, 11).

 

[Ladodgers6]

We have nothing to do with our rebirth, absolutely nothing, just as we have nothing to do with our physical birth, absolutely nothing.
The new birth comes by nothing but the totally sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:3-8).

Yes, I know, I never even suggested that. All I said is that it comes from the proclamation of the Gospel.

Also justification is a declaration by God of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a legal finding of right standing with the Court; i.e., penalty paid, time served, no debt owing.

It is a forensic righteousness, the result of salvation; i.e., the remission of one's sin through faith, and salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on sin.

Actual righteousness by sanctification is through obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19).

Christ, our righteousness in that his righteousness on the cross being what removed our unrighteousness.

Yes I also agree with this, but will add that Christ's righteousness becomes ours as if we keep the Law perfectly.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, I know, I never even suggested that. All I said is that it comes from the proclamation of the Gospel.

However, Jesus does not say that.
Jesus says it is absolutely sovereign, not related to anything other than the Holy Spirit's sovereign decision; i.e., the same as physical birth.

Yes I also agree with this, but will add that Christ's righteousness becomes ours as if we keep the Law perfectly.

Except that the law was never given to make righteous (Ro 3:20), for righteousness has always been by faith (Ge 15:6, Gal 3:11).

 

[David1701]

Jn 16:7.

The disciples had Jesus with them, so they didn't need the Holy Spirit as well; however, when Jesus left, they would have the Holy Spirit instead.

I want to point out that I did not say that you were wrong about the Holy Spirit only indwelling intermittently, in OC saints. I only said that we can't prove it one way or the other. We know that the Holy Spirit left at least two OC saints (Samson - probably temporarily and Saul) but proving the status of all the others is another matter entirely.

 

[Ladodgers6]

However, Jesus does not say that.
Jesus says it is absolutely sovereign, not related to anything other than the Holy Spirit's sovereign decision; i.e., the same as physical birth.

Except that the law was never given to make righteous (Ro 3:20), for righteousness has always been by faith (Ge 15:6, Gal 3:11).

We can disagree, that's fine. It's the effectual calling that comes from the proclamation of the Gospel, right?

 

[Eleanor]

The disciples had Jesus with them, so they didn't need the Holy Spirit as well; however, when Jesus left, they would have the Holy Spirit instead.

I want to point out that I did not say that you were wrong about the Holy Spirit only indwelling intermittently, in OC saints. I only said that we can't prove it one way or the other. We know that the Holy Spirit left at least two OC saints (Samson - probably temporarily and Saul) but proving the status of all the others is another matter entirely.

Which the indwelling Holy Spirit does not do.

 

[Eleanor]

We can disagree, that's fine.

According to Jn 3:3-8, Ro 3:20, Ge 15:6 and Gal 3:11, it's not me that you are disagreeing with.

It's the effectual calling that comes from the proclamation of the Gospel, right?

Not necessarily, it can come from anything.
The operative word is "effectual," not the means.

 

[Ladodgers6]

According to Jn 3:3-8, Ge 15:6 and Gal 3:11, it's not me that you are disagreeing with.

Not necessarily, it can come from anything.
The operative word is "effectual," not the means.

Let me make this simple. Can a person be saved apart from the Proclamation of the Gospel?

 

[Eleanor]

Let me make this simple. Can a person be saved apart from the Proclamation of the Gospel?

God is sovereign. He can both rebirth and reveal himself to whom he chooses to do so, which will result in faith in Christ.

 

[David1701]

Which the indwelling Holy Spirit does not do.

In the NC - yes, I've said this all along. The Holy Spirit indwells his people permanently, in the NC.

You claimed that the Holy Spirit only indwelt OC saints intermittently; however, we can't prove that this was universally the case. That was my only disagreement.

 

[Ladodgers6]

God is sovereign. He can both rebirth and reveal himself to whom he chooses to do so, which will result in faith in Christ.

You didn't answer the question.