I chose God..Or God chose me...

[Ritajanice]

Thanks for sharing, but you are missing a very crucial piece here. All of this comes through the proclamation of the Gospel! God's Word is alive, it breaths life into to us through the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit that bears witness to what God in Christ accomplished through the life, death and resurrection of Christ Jesus! He is the God-Man a mediator and redeemer between us and God. The Gospel again is not about us living the Gospel that saves us, but only the life of a Savior who came to save God's people from their sins through a Covenant of Grace!

I beg to differ, crucial piece?...could you explain what it means in your own words....Birthed in the Spirit means....what’s the crucial point of being birthed?.....how do you know you have been birthed in the Spirit?

What does heart knowledge mean to you?...



God’s word comes from him, you do not have to read any bible to be birthed in the Spirit...the rebirth comes from the living word of God, that’s been my whole point, God’s word is Alive in Spirit...he doesn’t need the Book of the Bible to be read to become Born Again...or for him to birth his child in the Spirit does he?

As his word says here...his word is ALIVE...what do I mean by that?

Hebrews 4:12-13​

KJV

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

His living word testifies with our spirit that we are Born Again..this is a supernatural act that only God can do through the Spirit....

John 3:6​

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King James Version​

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6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:8​

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King James Version​

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8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Romans 8​

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King James Version​

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​

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[makesends]

Please guys show each other respect and civility.

My bad.

 

[makesends]

It is proven by scripture as rightly divided by the word of truth until you prove I did not rightly divide the word of truth by explaining what those scriptures is about.

IF you cannot do that, then it is on YOU to ask Jesus for wisdom to prove or confirm otherwise what was shared. You do not just say I do not see it and say I am wrong when you do not even address what those scriptures are really about to prove I am not rightly dividing the word of truth.

You say I have to prove it because you do not see it, but I shared what it was about whereas you have to prove otherwise that is not what it means or about.

So if you cannot do that, then I cannot help you when it is on Him to cause the increase.

An aside: Even if debate revolves around what you posit, it need not follow your demands concerning your attempted defense of your posit. If this site is primarily for debate, consider that your, "if you cannot do that, then I cannot help you when it is on Him to cause the increase" is not debate. It also smacks of some assumption that what you posit is not to be doubted, but is God's own truth.

 

[Ritajanice]

I beg to differ, crucial piece?...could you explain what it means in your own words....Birthed in the Spirit means....what’s the crucial point of being birthed?.....how do you know you have been birthed in the Spirit?

What does heart knowledge mean to you?...



God’s word comes from him, you do not have to read any bible to be birthed in the Spirit...the rebirth comes from the living word of God, that’s been my whole point, God’s word is Alive in Spirit...he doesn’t need the Book of the Bible to be read to become Born Again...or for him to birth his child in the Spirit does he?

As his word says here...his word is ALIVE...what do I mean by that?

Hebrews 4:12-13​

KJV

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

His living word testifies with our spirit that we are Born Again..this is a supernatural act that only God can do through the Spirit....

John 3:6​

​

King James Version​

​

​

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:8​

​

King James Version​

​

​

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Romans 8​

​

King James Version​

​

​

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It breathes life into us?

It’s the Living word of God who breathes life into us, via the Holy Spirit, please note scripture above.

How else would anyone know they are Born from above.....God opens his child’s heart / spirit to receive his word and he testifies with our spirit that we are his child as he’s indwelling us.

I understand Born Again the way God shows me through my understanding...I don’t understand it through your way...that would be impossible.

 

[Ritajanice]

Justification comes before sanctification, and it is how a sinner is justified and declared righteousness before God. The good works of the believer flow from justification in Christ Alone! We need to be reconciled before sanctification as well. Because before reconciliation our relationship is severed and we are alienated by being sworn enemies. But it's in this state that Christ redeems us and reconciles to God, then can we live to God! But only through justification in Christ Alone through faith alone can we have a relationship with God and being declared righteous before in him because of the imputed or credited righteousness of Christ that clothed us.

Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD; my soul shall exult in my God, for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation; he has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself like a priest with a beautiful headdress, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

Without Christ's righteousness clothing us, there is noway anybody is entering heaven. This is why the Reformation occurred and why they said this doctrine of Justification by Faith Alone is by which the church stands or falls.

1 Cor. 1:30 And because of hime you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

This Rita is the good news to which Paul speaks of when he preached the Gospel to sinners! And this is what we must read and hear everyday. Who Christ is and what he has done for sinners!

Just sharing and hope you continue to research this and do your own homework on this crucial matter!

By Grace Alone in Christ Alone!

I have no idea why you have posted...justification comes before sanctification?...I don’t think I said otherwise?

We must be birthed in the Spirit...before any sanctification can take place...or for any living relationship with God can begin....as the word of God says...you must be Born Again to see the Kingdom of God........I think you and I are understanding Born Again very differently.

Maybe you become Born Again Through reading God’s word and study of it?

I never, i was birthed in the Spirit..having never studied the word of God......completely out of the blue...of course there was much more to it than that, the drawing to Jesus..Godly sorrow, repentance,...my testimony..when God testified with my spirit..it blew my mind..he spoke to my Spirit.....mind blowing!!


And my testimony keeps just getting stronger and stronger....I have NEVER doubted being birthed in the Spirit...” Never”..many have tried to take his word from me, because they haven’t understood my testimony....they all failed...why..because I received the “ Living “ word of God ...which will NEVER die.....none, not one can un- birth me...I thank him daily for that AMAZING birth....it still blows my mind after 31 years and counting.

I received that “ LIVING “ word of God straight to my heart/ spirit.

Hebrews 4:12-13​

KJV

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do

 

[Ladodgers6]

What about it? I.e., what's your point?

Your thoughts?

 

[Ladodgers6]

Hebrews 10:24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

I had believed I wanted to provoke my opponents to rightly divide the word of truth that I had shared that was opposing how they had shared or had agreed with the one that had shared what the scriptures to mean for the progress of the discussion.

Yes, I understand, but provoke with gentleness not being pompous, right? Sharing and asking the right questions is okay. And I also understand that people will not get it right away because of what they already learned. And being able to rightly divide God's word is crucial to understanding it. Like Law passages and Gospel passages; imperatives & indicatives; threats & promises. So show them. God's word is enough, don't allow your feelings to get in the way. I hope I make sense?​

Since I am here to learn also and I did learn about how Jesus Christ is also an Apostle from @Wordsmith ( one of my contenders against me ) as I applied other scriptures to confirm that Jesus Christ is One sent by God per Isaiah 48:16-17 ; I was hoping for either another correction or an attempt to align the scriptures I had applied to show how it did not oppose how @Eleanor had applied "the last day" to mean.

Obviously, their minds are made up and so the discussion is still at an impasse for why I thank the Lord for you in letting me know to let it go.

Exactly, just present the truth and don't allow anyone to inflamed you. And I agree with you, Jesus is God, who came to save sinners! He is the teacher, Savior and King!

 

[Ladodgers6]

Sure, before I do. May I ask you a question? Have you heard of the imputation of Christ's Righteousness? Or the Covenant of Redemption? Do you believe God has a Plan of Salvation?

 

[Ladodgers6]

I have no idea why you have posted...justification comes before sanctification?...I don’t think I said otherwise?

I wrote this because you did not mention it. One must always present this, correct? Great, I am glad you believe it. Can you define it for me?

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
To me, regeneration necessarily remains continuous. We are not (in my opinion) once regenerated, able to continue therein apart from the continuing work of the Spirit of God within. And I can't see the Gospel, salvation, apart from regeneration —to me, at least, the principle applies from Adam to the last believer alive. But: We both believe the Spirit does as it will

When I said "regeneration necessarily remains continuous" I didn't mean we were continuously being regenerated. Yes, the regeneration happens only once ever in a person. What I meant was that it is done by the Spirit of God who never leaves —he being the very essence of that regeneration. We are that much dependent on him.

Ladodgers6 said:
What about the proclamation of the Gospel; who Christ is and what he has accomplished for sinners?

makesends said:
What about it? I.e., what's your point?

Your thoughts?

I mean, how are you relating the proclamation of the Gospel, who Christ is and what has accomplished for sinners, to what I said? Why did you bring it up? You have me fishing in the dark to answer your questions. Surely you had some thought come to mind related to what I originally said, no?

 

[Eleanor]

Matthew 12:33 & 1 Corinthians 15:22-28

I believe that reference is about how He will judge those coming out of that last rebellion by Satan for a small season when he is released from the pit after a thousand years.

You are missing out on some other apostolic teaching for why what you are applying as apostolic teaching is wrong..

Assertion without apostolic Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.

 

[Ritajanice]

I wrote this because you did not mention it. One must always present this, correct? Great, I am glad you believe it. Can you define it for me?

We are justified before God through Jesus...we are made right before God before any sanctification can take place...I’ve explained there is so much more to it than that....the actual birth, is supernatural and the living word of God...Faith comes from the birth, there is no faith, not until one has been birthed in the spirit...then we have faith as the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are his child....that’s my way of explaining it.

 

[Eleanor]

I'm not so sure about this last sentence, but I think I get what you are saying. But the fact that "the indwelling of the Spirit is the result of Christ" doesn't (to me) imply that it only happens post-Calvary/ Pentecost. We have, for example, the very same salvation by the death of Christ, applying to all the saints of the OT —not just those after Calvary. Why not the indwelling of the Spirit? I'm aware of quite a bit of Scripture that sounds that way, at first, because it is talking about what happened, such as this apparent displacement ("Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.")

To me, regeneration necessarily remains continuous. We are not (in my opinion) once regenerated, able to continue therein apart from the continuing work of the Spirit of God within. And I can't see the Gospel, salvation, apart from regeneration —to me, at least, the principle applies from Adam to the last believer alive. But: We both believe the Spirit does as it will.

They were regenerated through faith in the promise (Ge 15:5, seed; Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16), which regeneration is of course permanent, and the Holy Spirit operated intermittently within them, without indwelling them, to accomplish his purposes, which is consistent with Jn 16:7.

 

[Ritajanice]

Sure, before I do. May I ask you a question? Have you heard of the imputation of Christ's Righteousness? Or the Covenant of Redemption? Do you believe God has a Plan of Salvation?

I believe God has a plan of salvation....of course, he knows the beginning to the end.

Imputation of Christ’s righteousness....can only come from God, when he draws us to Jesus...to believe in his Son...again much more to it than that...that’s my understanding of it.

Covenant of redemption...we are under the NT Covenant.?

 

[Ladodgers6]

makesends said:
To me, regeneration necessarily remains continuous. We are not (in my opinion) once regenerated, able to continue therein apart from the continuing work of the Spirit of God within. And I can't see the Gospel, salvation, apart from regeneration —to me, at least, the principle applies from Adam to the last believer alive. But: We both believe the Spirit does as it will

When I said "regeneration necessarily remains continuous" I didn't mean we were continuously being regenerated. Yes, the regeneration happens only once ever in a person. What I meant was that it is done by the Spirit of God who never leaves —he being the very essence of that regeneration. We are that much dependent on him.

Ladodgers6 said:
What about the proclamation of the Gospel; who Christ is and what he has accomplished for sinners?

makesends said:
What about it? I.e., what's your point?

I mean, how are you relating the proclamation of the Gospel, who Christ is and what has accomplished for sinners, to what I said? Why did you bring it up? You have me fishing in the dark to answer your questions. Surely you had some thought come to mind related to what I originally said, no?

Well, you said, what about it? Shouldn't the Proclamation of the Gospel be preached and from this comes regeneration then, faith? God's Word is Alive, yes?

 

[Ladodgers6]

They were regenerated through faith in the promise (Ge 15:5, seed; Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16), which regeneration is of course permanent, and the Holy Spirit operated intermittently within them, without indwelling them, to accomplish his purposes.

Regeneration comes through the preaching of his word, then comes faith.

 

[Ritajanice]

Regeneration comes through the preaching of his word, then comes faith.

Yes, the receiving of his word, then faith...

 

[Ladodgers6]

I believe God has a plan of salvation....of course, he knows the beginning to the end.

Imputation of Christ’s righteousness....can only come from God, when he draws us to Jesus...to believe in his Son...again much more to it than that...that’s my understanding of it.

Covenant of redemption...we are under the NT Covenant.?

Can you define it more for me, what is the imputation of Christ's righteousness?

 

[Eleanor]

I've had the same thought. RCC is organized and I think semi-monolithic. RCs also have the advantage of creating doctrine from scratch (without God's input).


No, I live on a lake just south of Chandler, TX.
Where is Piney Woods? Why'd you guess that?

East Texas is pines, which is what I mean by piney woods.
Gulf coast, Houston, TX, myself, prior to retirement. Now in Asheville, NC, out of the heat, but humidity, not so much.

 

[Ritajanice]

Can you define it more for me, what is the imputation of Christ's righteousness?

Maybe you can,as you know more about than me.?

Then I can question you about it...if that’s ok?