Hebrews 6

[David1701]

Not in context with doctrine of salvation. Try again. I gave examples of taste and eat in context.

The physical is a type of the spiritual, which is why tasting is used as a metaphor. Everyone (well, almost everyone...) knows that tasting and eating/drinking are different and that the first does not necessarily lead to the second.

 

[Shulammite]

Nice!

So, You agree Ch 6 here is not teaching one can lose salvation?

What is it teaching then? Though Judas died before Christ was crucified he was actually the one who brought about the Author of Life's crucifixion, he tasted the heavenly gifts and fell away. Christ called him a devil even though he was called to be one of the twelve.

The way I understand it is, you don't know until you know if you will fall away. I see it as a word of caution as to not become too confident in one's position. Christ allowed someone to join who turned out to be a devil. He wasn't initially. Point is we don't know who is and is not a devil amongst us until the final hours.

Can I lose my salvation? oh dear God I hope not. So, I will proceed with caution , remain humble, presume nothing and obey. Point is, none of us can see a Judas until God reveals who is.

But the hallmarks of a Judas are; Buddying up to Jews who reject Christ ( that is why I can't understand all the Christian and Jew stuff of some pastors). They always tell people to donate and/or support the Jews and their causes when the Jews should be Christian like us. For what partnership does righteousness have with unrighteousness? Regardless of race all who accept Christ as Lord and Savior are called Christian and you can be a Christian Jew. Nothing more Jew than that. The best one is when non- Christian Rabbis think they can tell Christians the meaning of scripture and these so called Christians go with it.

Conclusion, I believe who the Father gives to the Son, no one can pluck them out of His hand but who knows for sure who is who as we stand amongst one another until the hour reveals.

 

[Carbon]

What is it teaching then?

It's not teaching one can lose their salvation.

hough Judas died before Christ was crucified he was actually the one who brought about the Author of Life's crucifixion, he tasted the heavenly gifts and fell away. Christ called him a devil even though he was called to be one of the twelve.

Judas brought about nothing. He did what he was appointed to do. The Father brought it about.

 

[Shulammite]

It's not teaching one can lose their salvation.

Judas brought about nothing. He did what he was appointed to do. The Father brought it about.

It's not teaching one can lose their salvation.

Judas brought about nothing. He did what he was appointed to do. The Father brought it about.

Hi! Ok I am open to any teaching about this that God may have to share with me through you. Honestly, I never really pondered it. I guess I just hope to always stay in grace. I just never assume anything about my weaknesses and strengths. If you are able to make this clear to me, I believe I will hear what you have to say. God did after all make gold earrings for me. If it rings true, I will be happy to call you, my brother. I say that, because I noticed you gave a nod to Mother Mary. Even if you don't get into praying to her, you do respect her, and you seem to truly want to grow and learn, you seem quite open to change or rather continual growth. That is hard to come by. There is a humility I sense from you even though we may have butt heads a bit. I didn't read Eleanor's response fully, it seemed kinda rehearsed, but so what, if it is the truth, right? I will read her reply because I noticed you gave it a thumbs up. I will approach it prayerfully. Afterall, we each are given gifts and we are to honor one another and help uplift each other.

Does that sound fair? I love when I meet people who can teach me something, it is refreshing.

 

[Carbon]

Hi! Ok I am open to any teaching about this that God may have to share with me through you. Honestly, I never really pondered it. I guess I just hope to always stay in grace. I just never assume anything about my weaknesses and strengths. If you are able to make this clear to me, I believe I will hear what you have to say. God did after all make gold earrings for me. If it rings true, I will be happy to call you, my brother. I say that, because I noticed you gave a nod to Mother Mary. Even if you don't get into praying to her, you do respect her, and you seem to truly want to grow and learn, you seem quite open to change or rather continual growth. That is hard to come by. There is a humility I sense from you even though we may have butt heads a bit. I didn't read Eleanor's response fully, it seemed kinda rehearsed, but so what, if it is the truth, right? I will read her reply because I noticed you gave it a thumbs up. I will approach it prayerfully. Afterall, we each are given gifts and we are to honor one another and help uplift each other.

Does that sound fair? I love when I meet people who can teach me something, it is refreshing.

..............

I have no problem sharing. I do have an issue with getting involved in too many things at once. But if you really are sincere, you can go back and read the thread. Then, if you have any questions, please ask.

 

[Shulammite]

It goes to the whole book of Hebrews, which is addressed it seems to newly professing Christian Hebrews who were being tempted to revert to Judaism, or to Judaize the gospel.

The book is to persuade them not to fall away (apostasize) from their profession of faith, wherein there are five warnings scattered through
chps 1:12, Heb 6:4-6 being the third one.

They are reminded in Heb 3:7-4:12 of their ancestors' failure, because of unbelief, to go into Canaan, the promised rest from their enemies, and God's judgment on that rebellion (Nu 14), wherein because of it they would never be allowed to enter into God's promised rest in Canaan, and would die in the wilderness.
The penman of Hebrews is reminding these new Christians of what will happen to them if, after being introduced to the experience of the gospel, they choose to reject it by turning away from it. There will be no second chance, just as there was no second chance at Canaan. There will be only the fearful judgment of God, as there was at Canaan.

Huh. Seems you summed up what I said. It is a cautionary tale. No need to warn of a chance that could never happen right? That would be a vain warning then. So, is there a chance one could lose his or her salvation with what you said?

 

[Eleanor]

Huh. Seems you summed up what I said. It is a cautionary tale. No need to warn of a chance that could never happen right? That would be a vain warning then. So, is there a chance one could lose his or her salvation with what you said?

The born again by God into sonship do not apostasize.

If they apostasize, they were not born again and had no salvation to lose.

 

[Shulammite]

Scripture no where teaches a believer can lose their salvation.

Ok, I am going to agree with you here. Clearly, that sorcerer was not a believer because he thought he could purchase gifts of the Holy Spirit like you would a pack of bubble gum. I think John 10 supports the idea that no one who belongs to Christ can lose his salvation.

John 10:
Jesus at the Feast of Dedication

22At that time the Feast of Dedication took place in Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple courts in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. 26But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. 27My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

After prayerfully considering your claim, I think the real issue is, there are many who think they are Christ's but are found to not be. Even Judas thought He was Christ's but turns out he wasn't. Point is I guess even wannabe's can come, but once they find out what it entails serving Christ, we all find out they are knock-off's- don't possess the real seal of approval. Someone else's hand is really involved with their making.

So, my verdict- No child of God can lose his salvation but not all who claim to be children of God are.

 

[Eleanor]

Ok, I am going to agree with you here. Clearly, that sorcerer was not a believer because he thought he could purchase gifts of the Holy Spirit like you would a pack of bubble gum. I think John 10 supports the idea that no one who belongs to Christ can lose his salvation.

John 10:
Jesus at the Feast of Dedication

22At that time the Feast of Dedication took place in Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple courts in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. 26But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. 27My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

After prayerfully considering your claim, I think the real issue is, there are many who think they are Christ's but are found to not be. Even Judas thought He was Christ's but turns out he wasn't. Point is I guess even wannabe's can come, but once they find out what it entails serving Christ, we all find out they are knock-off's- don't possess the real seal of approval. Someone else's hand is really involved with their making.

So, my verdict- No child of God can lose his salvation but not all who claim to be children of God are.

Remember, the Holy Spirit is the deposit (down payment on) guaranteeing our inheritance (2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:14).

 

[Wordsmith]

I’d love to share my understanding of the passage. Once I get home from work later.

Are you still at work?

 

[Eleanor]

duplicate

 

[Marilyn C]

Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and produces vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

If you are interested I am curious how you understand this passage.

Or anyone actually. This could be a great discussion.

My thought is that once someone rejects the Holy Spirit then how are they going to be brought to repentance again. Their conscience is seared.

 

[Carbon]

My thought is that once someone rejects the Holy Spirit then how are they going to be brought to repentance again. Their conscience is seared.

So, you agree with some that people can lose their salvation?

Okay.

 

[Marilyn C]

So, you agree with some that people can lose their salvation?

Okay.

I see that salvation is in time and thus a process. Thus, someone can choose to turn away from that process.

`He who begun a good work in you will complete it until the Day of Jesus Christ.` (Phil. 1: 6)

`how much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.` (Phil. 2: 12)

 

[Carbon]

I see that salvation is in time and thus a process. Thus, someone can choose to turn away from that process.

Okay. Thanks

 

[Lees]

As a fairly new believer many years ago, in my reading and study of the Bible, I came across the book of (Hebrews). Scared me to death. The warnings seemed to say I was going to lose my salvation, if I hadn't done this, or if I did this again. And I knew I had or hadn't. And then I had this thought, God didn't go to the trouble and Sacrifice to save me just to lose me again. Does God really lose anything? Of course not. So, at that time I just recognized I was new in the faith and didn't understand all that was being said. So I just continued my Bible readings and studies content that all would be made clearer later.

I would like to present my understanding now, but not my own completely as many have contributed to it, of (Heb. 6:1-8). I don't like to present long posts, or read long posts, so this may take several posts. And in each post there will be plenty for any to respond to one way or the other.

I will say at the outset, that (Heb. 6:1-8) does not teach one can lose their eternal life. But, it is a serious warning to we who are believers. And it can have serious consequences. A serious warning without serious consequences is not much of a warning. And I will say also that the warning is to believers in Christ. Ones who have been born-again.

Lees

 

[Arial]

As a fairly new believer many years ago, in my reading and study of the Bible, I came across the book of (Hebrews). Scared me to death. The warnings seemed to say I was going to lose my salvation, if I hadn't done this, or if I did this again. And I knew I had or hadn't. And then I had this thought, God didn't go to the trouble and Sacrifice to save me just to lose me again. Does God really lose anything? Of course not. So, at that time I just recognized I was new in the faith and didn't understand all that was being said. So I just continued my Bible readings and studies content that all would be made clearer later.

I would like to present my understanding now, but not my own completely as many have contributed to it, of (Heb. 6:1-8). I don't like to present long posts, or read long posts, so this may take several posts. And in each post there will be plenty for any to respond to one way or the other.

I will say at the outset, that (Heb. 6:1-8) does not teach one can lose their eternal life. But, it is a serious warning to we who are believers. And it can have serious consequences. A serious warning without serious consequences is not much of a warning. And I will say also that the warning is to believers in Christ. Ones who have been born-again.

Lees

I had a similar experience with the book of Hebrews. I began my life in Christ by reading the Bible book by book, chapter by chapter, line by line, in both OT and NT simultaneously. I immediately loved the book of Hebrews because it made such a strong connection to the OT and gave me a better understanding of it. It connected the two testaments for me.

However chapter 6 took me aback. I believed that a saved person could not be lost, and my own reasoning was that if Jesus purchased the believer with his blood, that person was purchased. So, I did pretty much what you did. I told myself that it could not mean what it sounded like it meant on the surface. I did not understand it and was not capable of understanding at that time. I would come to understand it. And I have. I must say here without getting into a discussion of Reformed theology, that it was Reformed theology that helped me solidify the fact that a person cannot lose their salvation with more "meat" than my first childlike, but also true, "If Jesus did it, it can't be undone." Though I in no way think I understand Heb 6 perfectly even now. I know the possibilities, the various interpretations, which may contain elements of truth in most, but not all. It is accurate enough to be standing on solid ground.

To avoid a long post, I will present some of my thoughts in a separate post. And look forward to yours.

 

[Lees]

continued from post #(276)

(Heb. 3:1) says, "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus. Compare to (Heb. 6:4) "...who were once enlightened....were made partakers of the Holy Ghost"

Also, (Heb. 10:19) "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus"

Also, in (Heb. 2:1-3) Paul includes himself, identifies himself with those to whom he is writing. "Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip....How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation...."

So, I am convinced that Paul is speaking to Christians. Born-again Christian Jews. Which means I don't believe they are 'professors but not possessors'. They have been saved. But, they under pressure from other Jews, feel the need to continue in the old economy of the Mosaic law.

And this is the whole purpose of the book of (Hebrews), to warn them not to go back but to go on with Christ. To not go on with Christ is to neglect the salvation He has given.

I'm sure most know here that salvation can speak to ones initial salvation of being brought from a lost state to a saved state, obtaining eternal life. The majority of Scripture deals with the salvation of our daily walk with the Lord in being delivered from the sins and things of the world. We still have a future salvation where we stand glorified before God and Christ without sin in a glorified body.

Lees

 

[Lees]

I had a similar experience with the book of Hebrews. I began my life in Christ by reading the Bible book by book, chapter by chapter, line by line, in both OT and NT simultaneously. I immediately loved the book of Hebrews because it made such a strong connection to the OT and gave me a better understanding of it. It connected the two testaments for me.

However chapter 6 took me aback. I believed that a saved person could not be lost, and my own reasoning was that if Jesus purchased the believer with his blood, that person was purchased. So, I did pretty much what you did. I told myself that it could not mean what it sounded like it meant on the surface. I did not understand it and was not capable of understanding at that time. I would come to understand it. And I have. I must say here without getting into a discussion of Reformed theology, that it was Reformed theology that helped me gain a better understanding of the passages. Though I in no way think I understand it perfectly even now. I know the possibilities, the various interpretations, which may contain elements of truth in most, but not all. It is accurate enough to be standing on solid ground.

To avoid a long post, I will present some of my thoughts in a separate post. And look forward to yours.

Amen brother. Glad to hear it. I look forward to your thoughts also. Feel free to correct any place where you think I missed it. I am done for now but will be back later on.

Lees

 

[CrowCross]

continued from post #(276)

(Heb. 3:1) says, "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus. Compare to (Heb. 6:4) "...who were once enlightened....were made partakers of the Holy Ghost"

Also, (Heb. 10:19) "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus"

Also, in (Heb. 2:1-3) Paul includes himself, identifies himself with those to whom he is writing. "Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip....How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation...."

So, I am convinced that Paul is speaking to Christians. Born-again Christian Jews. Which means I don't believe they are 'professors but not possessors'. They have been saved. But, they under pressure from other Jews, feel the need to continue in the old economy of the Mosaic law.

And this is the whole purpose of the book of (Hebrews), to warn them not to go back but to go on with Christ. To not go on with Christ is to neglect the salvation He has given.

I'm sure most know here that salvation can speak to ones initial salvation of being brought from a lost state to a saved state, obtaining eternal life. The majority of Scripture deals with the salvation of our daily walk with the Lord in being delivered from the sins and things of the world. We still have a future salvation where we stand glorified before God and Christ without sin in a glorified body.

Lees

I'll jump in here...

Hebrew 6 starts off with..."Therefore"....so as the preachers say, we need to find out what the therefore is there for.
So we can go back to chapter 5....and you can probably apply your comment there.

And this is the whole purpose of the book of (Hebrews), to warn them not to go back but to go on with Christ. To not go on with Christ is to neglect the salvation He has given.

As well as not maturing in the faith.

It is my belief...take...that those of chapter 6 were truly believes and it isn't salvation in question but rather "blessings".

This chapter has often been identified with Moses and those wandering in the desert...not allowed to go into the promised land and receive the blessing.

If you're into Chuck Missler...he has a video on the chapter.