Hebrews 6

[Eleanor]

Are you saying the Jews in the desert didn't have true faith...they were all lost?

True faith does not rebel against God, as they did (Nu 14:9-10).

Falling away from faith is apostasy, which is rebellion.

They were denied entrance into the promised land because of their apostasy (rebellion, falling away). (Nu 14:10, 20-23)

God's purpose for Israel did not depend on everyone having true faith.

 

[CrowCross]

continued from post #(298)

I read all the post in succession ...well said.

If you have time watch the Chuck Missler video. You'll probably agree with 98% of what Chuck said.

 

[CrowCross]

True faith does not rebel against God, as they did (Nu 14:9-10).

Falling away from faith is apostasy, which is rebellion.

They were denied entrance into the promised land because of their apostasy (rebellion, falling away). (Nu 14:10, 20-23)

God's purpose for Israel did not depend on everyone having true faith.

As i have said..those of faith, perhaps somewhat apostate didn't lose their salvation but rather the blessings associated with their salvation.

 

[Eleanor]

As i have said..those of faith, perhaps somewhat apostate didn't lose their salvation but rather the blessings associated with their salvation.

Apostasy in the NT is loss of salvation.

 

[Mr GLee]

Apostasy in the NT is loss of salvation.

Never having salvation.

 

[CrowCross]

Apostasy in the NT is loss of salvation.

You can't lose your salvation.

. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

No one means no one...not even yourself.

 

[Lees]

I read all the post in succession ...well said.

If you have time watch the Chuck Missler video. You'll probably agree with 98% of what Chuck said.

Praise God. I hope it helps. So much more there, but it gives something to work off of.

I won't promise that I will. I have never heard of the man, though that doesn't mean anything. The important thing is that he ministers to you, so all the better. Learn as much as you can from him.

For me, and this is just me, I have come to the place where I get so much more from reading a commentary or book by someone. When one is on a video or preaching from the pulpit, I have become quite critical and look for other things also. In our day, you almost have to.

That doesn't mean I haven't in the past spent much time listening to preachers and teachers from the pulpit. I have. Some very well known past preachers. And have profited much from them. So, I appreciate the information and perhaps will some time look into it.

Sounds like you are well grounded in the Word. And that is profitable.

Lees

 

[HIM]

As i have said..those of faith, perhaps somewhat apostate didn't lose their salvation but rather the blessings associated with their salvation.

There is no such thing as somewhat apostate. One is either an apostate or not.

 

[Eleanor]

There is no such thing as somewhat apostate. One is either an apostate or not.

And apostates were never saved. . .their faith was not genuine.

 

[JIM]

Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and produces vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

If you are interested I am curious how you understand this passage.

Or anyone actually. This could be a great discussion.

Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since WHILE or SO LONG AS (in the margin of NASB) they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

The possibility of being restored to a condition of being saved is also found in Romans 11:11-24 speaking of the grafting in of the Gentiles. There Paul notes specifically speaks of branches broken off and then grafted back in. That is clearly a discussion of belief followed by unbelief followed by belief again.

The passage in Hebrews list (1) once been enlightened, (2) have tasted of the heavenly gift, (3) have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, (4) have tasted the good word of God, and (5) have tasted the powers of the age to come.

Clearly all five of these qualities are descriptions of one born again, hence saved. Clearly to have fallen away and then being restored again can only be understood in once have been saved, lost and then REsaved.

 

[JIM]

And apostates were never saved. . .their faith was not genuine.

If they were never saved, they, by definition, wouldn't be apostates.

 

[makesends]

Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since WHILE or SO LONG AS (in the margin of NASB) they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

The possibility of being restored to a condition of being saved is also found in Romans 11:11-24 speaking of the grafting in of the Gentiles. There Paul notes specifically speaks of branches broken off and then grafted back in. That is clearly a discussion of belief followed by unbelief followed by belief again.

The passage in Hebrews list (1) once been enlightened, (2) have tasted of the heavenly gift, (3) have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, (4) have tasted the good word of God, and (5) have tasted the powers of the age to come.

Clearly all five of these qualities are descriptions of one born again, hence saved. Clearly to have fallen away and then being restored again can only be understood in once have been saved, lost and then REsaved.

Off topic, but, clearly, the use of the word, 'clearly', in some cases, is for the purpose of reinforcing the lack of better reasoning.

 

[JIM]

Off topic, but, clearly, the use of the word, 'clearly', in some cases, is for the purpose of reinforcing the lack of better reasoning.

Off topic? I responded directly to the OP, the post #1.

 

[EarlyActs]

Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and produces vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

If you are interested I am curious how you understand this passage.

Or anyone actually. This could be a great discussion.

The first context is that generation of Israel (cf the title of the letter). The letter is the last appeal to that gen which started with Jesus, was confirmed by Peter and Paul, Acts 2, Rom 11. Israel was supposed to be missionaries of the Gospel like Paul.

So if any Jewish believers abandoned what they had found in the Gospel, they were going to lose their country for sure, and 'if we deny Him, he will deny us.' But even the broader community of Israel was addressed.

 

[Eleanor]

Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since WHILE or SO LONG AS (in the margin of NASB) they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

The possibility of being restored to a condition of being saved is also found in Romans 11:11-24 speaking of the grafting in of the Gentiles. There Paul notes specifically speaks of branches broken off and then grafted back in. That is clearly a discussion of belief followed by unbelief followed by belief again.

The objects of belief were not the same.
The OT branches that were in the tree were there by faith in God.
Those branches were cut off because of unbelief in God's Son, Jesus Christ, while Gentiles were grafted in because of belief in God's Son, Jesus Christ.

NT salvation requires belief in the person Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9) and his atoning work (Ro 3:25).
OT salvation required belief in the promise (Ge 15:5-6, seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

The passage in Hebrews list (1) once been enlightened, (2) have tasted of the heavenly gift, (3) have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, (4) have tasted the good word of God, and (5) have tasted the powers of the age to come.

Clearly all five of these qualities are descriptions of one born again, hence saved. Clearly to have fallen away and then being restored again can only be understood in once have been saved, lost and then REsaved.

"Tasting" and "eating" are not the same thing.

 

[Eleanor]

If they were never saved, they, by definition, wouldn't be apostates.

Contraire. . .

They fell away from their faith (which is apostasy) because their faith was not genuine.
All apostasy from faith in the NT is apostasy from a faith that is not genuine, but counterfeit.

 

[JIM]

"Tasting" and "eating" are not the same thing.

So then in reading Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone, I guess you would read that as Jesus didn't really "eat" or "experience" death for everyone; instead He merely "tasted" it. That might say that you still have to "eat" it.

 

[JIM]

They fell away from their faith (which is apostasy) because their faith was not genuine.
All apostasy from faith in the NT is apostasy from a faith that is not genuine, but counterfeit.

Well then who would care about apostasy? Why would the Bible even talk about it? Obviously, that would have no effect whatsoever on their standing before God, so why bother even bringing it up? Why warn against apostasy?

 

[Eleanor]

So then in reading Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone, I guess you would read that as Jesus didn't really "eat" or "experience" death for everyone; instead He merely "tasted" it. That might say that you still have to "eat" it.

Note that he only "tasted" it, for less than 48 hours.

"Eating" it would be subject to the grave until the end of time, as dead mankind is.

 

[Eleanor]

Well then who would care about apostasy? Why would the Bible even talk about it? Obviously, that would have no effect whatsoever on their standing before God, so why bother even bringing it up? Why warn against apostasy?

Warnings are one of the ways God preserves the elect, who heed the warnings. . .while the non-elect ignore them.