Hebrews 6

[ChristB4us]

Then you are mistaken. Sin is sin whether we like it or agree. Verse 26 includes what you say but is not inclusive to what you say. And that translation is incorrect. The text states willfully sinning in the present tense. This is a state of the unrepentant or those whom fallen away

Well it is in the present tense if a saved believer thinks they are to continue receiving a sacrifice for sins to atone for past sins since last Mass for example.

Hebrews 10th chapter is specific when addressing the Old Covenant and the sacrificial system provided yearly for why after having that knowledge that there is no more sacrifice for sin to be received and yet if a saved believer participate in the Mass, they will incur the Father's wrath.

Hebrews 12th chapter addresses believers living in sin so much that they do not even resist sin and so the Father's wrath is on that as well.

 

[ChristB4us]

In demonstrating the superiority of Christ to those Hebrew proselytes who were considering a return to Judaism, Paul presents the superiority of Christ to the Old Covenant leaders; i.e., to the angels, Moses and Aaronic priesthood; and then the superiority of Christ's sacrificial work to that of the Old Covenant priests; i.e., to the covenant, sanctuary and sacrifices, ending in Heb 10:19-39 with an exhortation to persevere (instead of apostasizing).

Heb 10:3 is part of Paul's demonstration of the superiority of the NT sacrifice over the OT sacrifices.
Heb 10:26 is part of the exhortation to persevere, for to deliberately keep on sinning (in apostasy, v.29) is to reject Christ's sacrifice for sin, which is the only sacrifice there is, there is no other, thereby leaving only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God (10:26).

They say that Illuminati of the Freemasons are Jesuits; but also they say they are the apostate Jews.

There are reports of Satanism being performed in the Vatican by a few visiting Catholic priests.

The Jesuit General also known as the Black Pope is also residing there at the Vatican.

The fact that the Mass is making that one time sacrifice for sin available again to receive again to atone for past sins since last Mass, thus enslaving the believers to that Roman system is why I see Hebrews 10th chapter as rebuking those Catholics for following along with that Jewish heresy.

 

[Eleanor]

They say that Illuminati of the Freemasons are Jesuits; but also they say they are the apostate Jews.

There are reports of Satanism being performed in the Vatican by a few visiting Catholic priests.

The Jesuit General also known as the Black Pope is also residing there at the Vatican.

The fact that the Mass is making that one time sacrifice for sin available again to receive again to atone for past sins since last Mass, thus enslaving the believers to that Roman system is why I see Hebrews 10th chapter as rebuking those Catholics for following along with that Jewish heresy.

Are you sure you understand correctly what the Catholic church believes about the "Mass"?

 

[ChristB4us]

Are you sure you understand correctly what the Catholic church believes about the "Mass"?

In making that one time sacrifice for sins present again to receive again, yes.

Feel free to ask why Catholics "have" to go to Mass and some may say that it is to make atonement for sins since last Mass. One former co-worker at Wal-Mart was a devout Catholic and one day he had declared he "have" to go to Mass. I vaguely recalled why but something about him being bad.

Since there are cafeteria Catholics that do not believe everything the RCC teaches, you will get mixed answers, but the Catholic Catechism teaches this as what the Eucharist does in Mass.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

"1393 Holy Communion separates us from sin. the body of Christ we receive in Holy Communion is "given up for us," and the blood we drink "shed for the many for the forgiveness of sins." For this reason the Eucharist cannot unite us to Christ without at the same time cleansing us from past sins and preserving us from future sins:

For as often as we eat this bread and drink the cup, we proclaim the death of the Lord. If we proclaim the Lord's death, we proclaim the forgiveness of sins. If, as often as his blood is poured out, it is poured for the forgiveness of sins, I should always receive it, so that it may always forgive my sins. Because I always sin, I should always have a remedy.227 ~~~ end of quote

 

[Eleanor]

In making that one time sacrifice for sins present again to receive again, yes.

Feel free to ask why Catholics "have" to go to Mass and some may say that it is to make atonement for sins since last Mass. One former co-worker at Wal-Mart was a devout Catholic and one day he had declared he "have" to go to Mass. I vaguely recalled why but something about him being bad.

Since there are cafeteria Catholics that do not believe everything the RCC teaches, you will get mixed answers, but the Catholic Catechism teaches this as what the Eucharist does in Mass.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

"1393 Holy Communion separates us from sin. the body of Christ we receive in Holy Communion is "given up for us," and the blood we drink "shed for the many for the forgiveness of sins." For this reason the Eucharist cannot unite us to Christ without at the same time cleansing us from past sins and preserving us from future sins:

For as often as we eat this bread and drink the cup, we proclaim the death of the Lord. If we proclaim the Lord's death, we proclaim the forgiveness of sins. If, as often as his blood is poured out, it is poured for the forgiveness of sins, I should always receive it, so that it may always forgive my sins. Because I always sin, I should always have a remedy.227 ~~~ end of quote

Seems you do understand what they believe about the Mass.

Do they say they are "re-presenting" the same sacrifice, or "offering" the same sacrifice again?

 

[ChristB4us]

Seems you do understand what they believe about the Mass.

Do they say they are "re-presenting" the same sacrifice, or "offering" the same sacrifice again?

Catholics have been accused of sacrificing Jesus again on the cross at the Mass and so they deny this; however, they see the offering of the Eucharist as making that one time sacrifice for sins available again to receive "again",

But like I say, there are cafeteria Catholics and so you may get different opinions on that Mass.

The Mass: The awesomely powerful representation

"The Mass is the liturgical re-presentation of Jesus Christ’s one-time, once for many, propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the world, at Calvary. The Last Supper was the anticipation of that blessed event, the eternal fulfillment of the Jewish Passover, and the Christ-instituted model for our timeless Catholic liturgy."

 

[David1701]

I agree. And that is it wrapped up in a nutshell.

But what do you believe these mean?
Enlightened,
Tasted on the heavenly gift,
Made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,


As I said, I agree with you but I am curious how you understand these points.

Thanks.

In the context of Hebrews:

1) Enlightened - They've had the gospel proclaimed to them, so that they know that the Old Covenant is now obsolete and that Jesus is the Messiah.

2) Tasted of the heavenly gift - Christ is the heavenly gift. They have "tasted" (that is, they have had Christ presented to them, so that their spiritual taste has something to assess). Tasted is not the same as eaten...

3) Made partakers of the Holy Spirit - They have, perhaps, experienced the corporate atmosphere of the Holy Spirit's presence among worshipping believers, or have been convicted of sin, righteousness and judgment to come.

4) Tasted the good word of God (similar to no. 2) - They had God's word proclaimed to them (especially New Covenant truths), so that their spiritual palate can asses the "taste". Again, this is not the same as having eaten the word.

5) Tasted the powers of the age to come - they have experienced the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit (e.g. they might have been healed, seen miracles, heard prophecies, etc.)

 

[David1701]

Catholics have been accused of sacrificing Jesus again on the cross at the Mass and so they deny this; however, they see the offering of the Eucharist as making that one time sacrifice for sins available again to receive "again",

But like I say, there are cafeteria Catholics and so you may get different opinions on that Mass.

The Mass: The awesomely powerful representation

"The Mass is the liturgical re-presentation of Jesus Christ’s one-time, once for many, propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the world, at Calvary. The Last Supper was the anticipation of that blessed event, the eternal fulfillment of the Jewish Passover, and the Christ-instituted model for our timeless Catholic liturgy."

The RC teachers practise sophistry. They call the "Mass" a "bloodless sacrifice", which is repeated daily, and claim that it is, literally, the consumption of the body and blood of the Lord, in the form of a wafer (only the "priest" drinks the wine).

The Cross cannot be made "available" again, since it has never been unavailable and is received through faith, not by eating a wafer.

They also, sometimes, parade the wafer around, in a sunburst monstrance, to be worshipped (idolatry).

 

[Carbon]

In the context of Hebrews:

1) Enlightened - They've had the gospel proclaimed to them, so that they know that the Old Covenant is now obsolete and that Jesus is the Messiah.

Agreed

2) Tasted of the heavenly gift - Christ is the heavenly gift. They have "tasted" (that is, they have had Christ presented to them, so that their spiritual taste has something to assess). Tasted is not the same as eaten...

Agreed, but I also believe this tasting is about receiving communion (the Lord's Supper).

3) Made partakers of the Holy Spirit - They have, perhaps, experienced the corporate atmosphere of the Holy Spirit's presence among worshipping believers, or have been convicted of sin, righteousness and judgment to come.

Amen

4) Tasted the good word of God (similar to no. 2) - They had God's word proclaimed to them (especially New Covenant truths), so that their spiritual palate can asses the "taste". Again, this is not the same as having eaten the word.

5) Tasted the powers of the age to come - they have experienced the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit (e.g. they might have been healed, seen miracles, heard prophecies, etc.)

 

[ChristB4us]

The RC teachers practise sophistry. They call the "Mass" a "bloodless sacrifice", which is repeated daily, and claim that it is, literally, the consumption of the body and blood of the Lord, in the form of a wafer (only the "priest" drinks the wine).

The Cross cannot be made "available" again, since it has never been unavailable and is received through faith, not by eating a wafer.

They also, sometimes, parade the wafer around, in a sunburst monstrance, to be worshipped (idolatry).

I had read in a local papers that someone had broken in a Catholic Church and had threw out the wafers in the back property of the church.

The local news was reporting it also as the priest was carefully picking up the wafers and the pieces of the wafer as he was assigning the foul deed to Satanists.

Scripture testify that he was doing the work of Satan.

1 Corinthians 10: 14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? 23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

The problem with Lutherans is that Martin Luther did not get rid of all things Catholicism. Lutherans may not believe that communion is for making atonement for sins but they believe Christ's Presence is in the bread and the wine thus making them idols still in that regard.

 

[David1701]

I had read in a local papers that someone had broken in a Catholic Church and had threw out the wafers in the back property of the church.

The local news was reporting it also as the priest was carefully picking up the wafers and the pieces of the wafer as he was assigning the foul deed to Satanists.

Scripture testify that he was doing the work of Satan.

1 Corinthians 10: 14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? 23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

The problem with Lutherans is that Martin Luther did not get rid of all things Catholicism. Lutherans may not believe that communion is for making atonement for sins but they believe Christ's Presence is in the bread and the wine thus making them idols still in that regard.

There were quite a few hangovers from Catholicism, in the Reformation (e.g. infant sprinkling). It wasn't only Lutherans.

 

[ChristB4us]

There were quite a few hangovers from Catholicism, in the Reformation (e.g. infant sprinkling). It wasn't only Lutherans.

I agree. Just posted a thread in the Methodist sub forum after having done one in the Lutheran sub forum..

 

[HIM]

Where do any of your referenced texts call them any of these below :

Believers
Brethren
Beloved
Saved
Saints

If you can find a single instance you might have a case. Until then it’s an argument from silence that in any passage they were saved and lost their salvation. I don’t base my beliefs or theology on arguments from silence .

Also the Hebrews 6 passage makes the distinction between the unsaved ( 4-8 ) and those who are saved and accompany salvation whom he calls his beloved in 6:9

hope this helps !!!

The word We in Hebrews 10:26.

 

[civic]

The word We in Hebrews 10:26.

Do you still sin ?

The same " if we " below

1 John 1:8- If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[HIM]

Do you still sin ?

The same " if we " below

1 John 1:8- If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Hebrews 10:26 said s if WE continue willfully sinning there remains no more sacrifice for sins. The writer included himself in that admonition. Would you like to see other places the writer includes themselves in this type of admonition?

 

[Wordsmith]

In the context of Hebrews:

1) Enlightened - They've had the gospel proclaimed to them, so that they know that the Old Covenant is now obsolete and that Jesus is the Messiah.

Agreed , if you mean heard and understood the gospel. Could also involve the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

2) Tasted of the heavenly gift - Christ is the heavenly gift. They have "tasted" (that is, they have had Christ presented to them, so that their spiritual taste has something to assess). Tasted is not the same as eaten...

I see no real significant distinction between tasted and eaten. Especially if you are saying one who tasted the Heavenly gift is not Born again.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

In 1 Peter they have tased and yet they are born again babes in Christ.

John 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

In John Jesus says if you eat you will live. As related to salvation what is your scriptural difference between tasting and eating?

3) Made partakers of the Holy Spirit - They have, perhaps, experienced the corporate atmosphere of the Holy Spirit's presence among worshipping believers, or have been convicted of sin, righteousness and judgment to come.

I believe you have watered down the meaning of "partakers" here to fit your narrative. I see no way a scriptural case can be made that a partaker of the Holy Ghost cannot at the very least be born again or baptised in the Holy Spirit of course depending on ones doctrinal beliefs on the Holy Spirit.

One can be convicted and not partake!

Hebrews 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

1 Corinthians 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

Colossians 1:12
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

4) Tasted the good word of God (similar to no. 2) - They had God's word proclaimed to them (especially New Covenant truths), so that their spiritual palate can asses the "taste". Again, this is not the same as having eaten the word.

I still do not see the major distinction. you make between tasting the word and eating the word. Can you point out from scripture how you make that distinction?

5) Tasted the powers of the age to come - they have experienced the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit (e.g. they might have been healed, seen miracles, heard prophecies, etc.)

The word "powers" is the Greek "dumamis" Which is special miraculous power

I believe you are close right on this one. You seem to avoid the believers participation and only speak of seeing or hearing the gifts with the exception of healing. If they heard a prophecy someone had to give it. If they experienced a healing it could have been through, prayer, the laying on of hands or just a proclamation from another believer used by the Holy Spirit.

I agree with your statement "they have experienced the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit" but I believe it refers specifically to the Gifts of The Spirit!

 

[David1701]

Agreed , if you mean heard and understood the gospel. Could also involve the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

I see no real significant distinction between tasted and eaten. Especially if you are saying one who tasted the Heavenly gift is not Born again.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

In 1 Peter they have tased and yet they are born again babes in Christ.

John 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

In John Jesus says if you eat you will live. As related to salvation what is your scriptural difference between tasting and eating?



I believe you have watered down the meaning of "partakers" here to fit your narrative. I see no way a scriptural case can be made that a partaker of the Holy Ghost cannot at the very least be born again or baptised in the Holy Spirit of course depending on ones doctrinal beliefs on the Holy Spirit.

One can be convicted and not partake!

Hebrews 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

1 Corinthians 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

Colossians 1:12
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:



I still do not see the major distinction. you make between tasting the word and eating the word. Can you point out from scripture how you make that distinction?



The word "powers" is the Greek "dumamis" Which is special miraculous power

I believe you are close right on this one. You seem to avoid the believers participation and only speak of seeing or hearing the gifts with the exception of healing. If they heard a prophecy someone had to give it. If they experienced a healing it could have been through, prayer, the laying on of hands or just a proclamation from another believer used by the Holy Spirit.

I agree with your statement "they have experienced the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit" but I believe it refers specifically to the Gifts of The Spirit!

Tasting neither precludes, nor necessarily includes, eating; and, they are definitely not the same thing, e.g. you can taste something, then spit it out, as wine tasters do, or, you can spit it out if you don't like the taste, or if it's gone off, etc..

 

[Wordsmith]

Tasting neither precludes, nor necessarily includes, eating; and, they are definitely not the same thing, e.g. you can taste something, then spit it out, as wine tasters do, or, you can spit it out if you don't like the taste, or if it's gone off, etc..

You have yet to make a case for a scriptural application that supports this in the way you claim in this case. How it is used in scripture is the standard not a wine tasting example.

 

[David1701]

You have yet to make a case for a scriptural application that supports this in the way you claim in this case. How it is used in scripture is the standard not a wine tasting example.

Here's a biblical wine-tasting example, just for you.

Matt. 27:34 (KJV) ¶ They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.

 

[Wordsmith]

Here's a biblical wine-tasting example, just for you.

Matt. 27:34 (KJV) ¶ They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.

Not in context with doctrine of salvation. Try again. I gave examples of taste and eat in context.