Hebrews 6

[Eleanor]

I'll jump in here...

Hebrew 6 starts off with..."Therefore"....so as the preachers say, we need to find out what the therefore is there for.
So we can go back to chapter 5....and you can probably apply your comment there.

And this is the whole purpose of the book of (Hebrews), to warn them not to go back but to go on with Christ. To not go on with Christ is to neglect the salvation He has given.

As well as not maturing in the faith.

It is my belief...take...that those of chapter 6 were truly believes and it isn't salvation in question but rather "blessings".

It seems they were considering a return to Judaism, which apostasy would prove their faith was not genuine (1 Jn 2:19),
and would deny them entrance into salvation (by faith), just as Israel could not enter the promised land after spying out the region and tasting its fruit.

This chapter has often been identified with Moses and those wandering in the desert...not allowed to go into the promised land and receive the blessing.

If you're into Chuck Missler...he has a video on the chapter.

 

[CrowCross]

It seems they were considering a return to Judaism, which apostasy would prove their faith was not genuine (1 Jn 2:19),
and would deny them entrance into salvation (by faith), just as Israel could not enter the promised land after spying out the region and tasting its fruit.

I don't see the verse in Heb 6 pertaining to "salvation" but as I said to blessings.
Those wondering in the desert certainly had faith or salvation. I don't think their apostasy as you put it demonstrated that the faith of those wandering in the desert was false. Once the blessing of the promised land was removed no amount of repentance could restore it.

 

[Carbon]

As a fairly new believer many years ago, in my reading and study of the Bible, I came across the book of (Hebrews). Scared me to death. The warnings seemed to say I was going to lose my salvation, if I hadn't done this, or if I did this again. And I knew I had or hadn't. And then I had this thought, God didn't go to the trouble and Sacrifice to save me just to lose me again. Does God really lose anything? Of course not. So, at that time I just recognized I was new in the faith and didn't understand all that was being said. So I just continued my Bible readings and studies content that all would be made clearer later.

I would like to present my understanding now, but not my own completely as many have contributed to it, of (Heb. 6:1-8). I don't like to present long posts, or read long posts, so this may take several posts. And in each post there will be plenty for any to respond to one way or the other.

I will say at the outset, that (Heb. 6:1-8) does not teach one can lose their eternal life. But, it is a serious warning to we who are believers. And it can have serious consequences. A serious warning without serious consequences is not much of a warning. And I will say also that the warning is to believers in Christ. Ones who have been born-again.

Lees

Interesting. This reminds me of how it was for me as a young Christian. In my case, I attended a Methodist church (Arminian of course) so all of the theology was teaching that we can lose our salvation. At that time, being a new Christian I heavily relied on what my pastor taught, after all, how could he be wrong? I have to say, it was not a pleasant time for me. It wasn't until some years later after the Lord opened my eyes to the Reformed faith and the doctrine of the Perseverance of the saints that I found any real peace. Finally, knowing that Christ does not lose any given to Him by the Father caused me to study Hebrews 6 and come to peace with it. I believe the passage teaches a few things, but not in any way that we can lose our salvation.

Let me clarify one thing I said above. I realize that not all Arminians teach and believe we can lose our salvation, this particular church was very shaky on that. But when God opened my eyes, to His truths, "the doctrines of grace," my whole life changed.

Blssings

 

[Arial]

Amen brother. Glad to hear it. I look forward to your thoughts also. Feel free to correct any place where you think I missed it. I am done for now but will be back later on.

Lees

Sister, and I too must tend to other things in real life but will get back later.

 

[Eleanor]

I don't see the verse in Heb 6 pertaining to "salvation" but as I said to blessings.

Crucifying the Lord all over again is denying the Lord, which is damnation.

True faith is from God (Php 1:29), it is salvation (Eph 2:8-9) and it is never lost.
All apostasy is falling away (Heb 6:6) from a faith that is not genuine and never saved.

Those wondering in the desert certainly had faith or salvation. I don't think their apostasy as you put it demonstrated that the faith of those wandering in the desert was false. Once the blessing of the promised land was removed no amount of repentance could restore it.

 

[Arial]

Amen brother. Glad to hear it. I look forward to your thoughts also. Feel free to correct any place where you think I missed it. I am done for now but will be back later on.

Lees

I pretty much agree with what you said and what others have said since your post.
In chapter 13, verse 22, the writer refers to his work as an exhortation. And I agree we must pay attention to the therefore's and make the connection, rather than isolate the troubling scriptures and form a doctrine from that isolation. We should also note verse 9 Though I Speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things---things that belong to salvation.

I have a real good study Bible that gives excellent chapter introductions. Among other things it gives the date and occasions for the writing of each epistle. So I will share the information that it gives on Hebrews, limiting it to the occasion, most of it gained from internal evidence.

The original recipients were most likely Jews of the dispersion who had lived their whole lives with the OT system of worship. In any case they had the Greek OT and could follow arguments drawn from the OT and were interested in the sanctuary, sacrificial system, and priesthood. Scattered outside Jerusalem as they were, they had no access to what they had always depended on. In addition they had been under severe persecution and were likely still under it, though not to the point of martyrdom. There would be a lot of pressure on them the surrounding cultures, even threat of death.

To be cont.

 

[Arial]

Cont from post #286

It also seems probable that they were immature from lack of teachers and had probably not been taught directly by Jesus. And they did not understand the suffering of Christ. The writer spends a great deal of time and detail on the Priesthood and Christ's priesthood, testifying to the imperfection of the old covenant and its sacrificial system they were used to and was no doubt still going on. It pointed to a better way, Christ. A better sacrifice, a better mediator. The author was grounding them in who Jesus is, and where they stand. And he grounded the person and work of Jesus as the reality of all that the OT shadowed.

And with great grace comes great responsibility. The writer says in 5:14 For solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. Evidently the recipients were not able to do that. The Christian is to be bearing more and more the image of God, of the Son who saved them, in righteousness.

So when we get to chapter 6, it is not about losing one's salvation, it is an exhortation---encouraging, and admonishing----to be faithful and to not lose heart. It is an intimate call to fellow believers. The list in verses 4-8 never says that any will do those things, has done those things, or might do those things. It simply says that IF it occurred, for them to return would be like crucifying Jesus again.

That is how I have come to see it. There are other views which do not make it say we can lose our salvation, but it gets pretty involved. I will leave it to someone else.

 

[Lees]

I'll jump in here...

Hebrew 6 starts off with..."Therefore"....so as the preachers say, we need to find out what the therefore is there for.
So we can go back to chapter 5....and you can probably apply your comment there.

And this is the whole purpose of the book of (Hebrews), to warn them not to go back but to go on with Christ. To not go on with Christ is to neglect the salvation He has given.

As well as not maturing in the faith.

It is my belief...take...that those of chapter 6 were truly believes and it isn't salvation in question but rather "blessings".

This chapter has often been identified with Moses and those wandering in the desert...not allowed to go into the promised land and receive the blessing.

If you're into Chuck Missler...he has a video on the chapter.

I agree, but would say going on with Christ is synonymous with maturing in the faith.

I tend to believe the emphasis in (Heb. 6:1-8) is more the serious nature of not going on with Christ.

I don't know who Chuck Missler is. Thanks for the video but I seldom, if ever, watch them.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Interesting. This reminds me of how it was for me as a young Christian. In my case, I attended a Methodist church (Arminian of course) so all of the theology was teaching that we can lose our salvation. At that time, being a new Christian I heavily relied on what my pastor taught, after all, how could he be wrong? I have to say, it was not a pleasant time for me. It wasn't until some years later after the Lord opened my eyes to the Reformed faith and the doctrine of the Perseverance of the saints that I found any real peace. Finally, knowing that Christ does not lose any given to Him by the Father caused me to study Hebrews 6 and come to peace with it. I believe the passage teaches a few things, but not in any way that we can lose our salvation.

Let me clarify one thing I said above. I realize that not all Arminians teach and believe we can lose our salvation, this particular church was very shaky on that. But when God opened my eyes, to His truths, "the doctrines of grace," my whole life changed.

Blssings

Praise God, that is good news. Once that burden is lifted from us, what a freedom we have to serve. We tend to forget that 'all authority and power' has been given to Christ. And the One to Whom all authority is given, is the One who died for us.

Satan can go before God and accuse us, rightfully so, before the Father. But our Advocate, Jesus, steps in, and says 'he is one of Ours'. 'He is in Me, under the blood.' And the Father rightfully says, 'I see no fault in him'.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Sister, and I too must tend to other things in real life but will get back later.

My apologies. Sounds good.

Lees

 

[Lees]

@Arial: concerning posts (286) and (287)

I believe all you said in these posts is good and sound.

I use a study Bible also. So helpful.

Lees

 

[Arial]

My apologies. Sounds good.

Lees

No problem.

 

[Lees]

continued from post #(278)

The Hebrew Christians in (Heb. 6:1-8) have stopped maturing in their Christian faith. They are turning back to the Mosaic Law due to persecution from the Jews. They are not denying Christ, but they are not going forward either.

Thus Paul constantly points out to them how Christ is superior to all that is in the Mosaic economy. Superior to the angels, (Heb. 1:1-2). Superior to Moses, (Heb. 3:1-6). Superior to the Aaronic priesthood, (Heb. 7:1-17) Superior to the Mosaic Law, (Heb. 7:18-22). Superior to the Old Covenant, (Heb. 8:6-13). Superior Sacrifice of blood, (Heb. 9:7-14). There is more there than just these verses but these make the point.

The problem is, many of these Hebrew Christians have turned back to the Old. Thus the warning. (Heb. 6:1-3) "...let us go on unto perfection...And this will we do, if God permit." The implication here is that God may not permit it. Why? Because there are those who have been enlightened, and partook of the heavenly gift, and made partakers of the Holy Spirit, who have known the Word of God and have experienced the powers of the age to come. (Heb. 6:4-5)

And concerning these, Paul says, (Heb. 6:4,6) "For it is impossible for those....If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Lees

 

[Lees]

continued from post #(293)

It's impossible to renew them again unto repentance. (Heb. 6:4,6) Why? Because they "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

I think we as believers assume that if we seek repentance, we automatically get it. But we don't. Repentance is a gift from God, if He wants to. Remember Kadesh-barnea? The spies went in to check out the land and came back with an evil report. (Num. 13:26-33) All of Israel wanted then to elect a new captain and go back to Egypt. (Num. 14:4) Made God angry.

God was ready to smite all of them and would have without Moses intercession. (Num. 14:11-19) As a result God slew not all, but did slay 10 of the spies, saving Joshua and Caleb, who were not in agreement with the 10. (Num. 14:36-38) But then to the rest of Israel who was ready to go back to Egypt, God said, "Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it." (Num. 14:22-23)

And then God pronounced his judgement upon them. (Num. 14:29-35) That whole generation of Israelites would wander in the wilderness till all were dead, from 20 years old and older. (Num. 14:29)

Moses got back with the people of Israel and told them the bad news. (Num. 14:39) And guess what, they decided to 'repent'. (Num. 14:39-40) "...Lo we be here, and will go up unto the place which the LORD hath promised: for we have sinned." Sounds like good repentance to me. Didn't matter. (Num. 14: 41-42) "...Go not up, for the LORD is not among you; that ye be not smitten before your enemies."

God would not accept their repentance.

Lees

 

[Mr GLee]

The Hebrew Christians in (Heb. 6:1-8) have stopped maturing in their Christian faith. They are turning back to the Mosaic Law due to persecution from the Jews. They are not denying Christ, but they are not going forward either.

I would offer they were offering their own faith (trust in themselves) by performing ceremonial laws as if they were the letter death

The I did it, it proves it .

Dead faith. "Let there be" and nothing changes nothing. Called the law of faith or work of faith .Gods labor of love.

Proving their pagan foundation. Out of sight out of mind. God calls fools

Hebrews 6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith (Human)toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Simply relying on ceremonies shadows, a sign to the unbelieving world . Believers have prophecy till the end of time .Why wonder,wonder, wonder after signs, shadows

Beter things accompany salvation the power to believe and do the will of the heavenly Father, Christ

Hebrew 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

 

[Lees]

continued form post #(294)

Because that generation of Israelites was not allowed to repent and not allowed into the land and doomed to die in the wilderness, does that mean they all lost their eternal life? Of course not. We know that not all Israel are Israel. (Rom. 9:6) So no doubt there were many who were not believers. But the vast majority were believing Jews. They as a people professed saving faith when in Egypt they put blood on their door posts and went inside. (Ex. 12:13) They as a people were then water baptized in the Sea. (1 Cor. 10:1-2) They drank of the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 10:4) They were a saved nation, a saved people of God.

Yet they were prone to turning away from God. Prone to sinning against God. Prone to complaining against God no matter how many times He continued to deliver them. So they died in the wilderness not allowed into the promised land. (1 Cor. 10:5)

These things are examples for us. (1 Cor. 10:6) These things are all true historically, but God has directed them to reflect the life of a believer also. The promised land, Canaan, does not represent Heaven. Immediately upon entering the promised land the Israelites would go to war. We will have no war in heaven. The promised land represents the believer walking in obedience and power of the Spirit in this life. A life of victory and of faith, with the goal of perfection, being maturity. The Rest of God. (Heb. 3:8-17)

So, those who died in the wilderness, didn't necessarily miss heaven. They failed to fully experience that which they were saved for. (Philippians 3:12) "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."

And, (Heb. 3:19) is clear that the root sin of not entering the promised land was 'unbelief'. They were believers in their initial salvation. But they fell into unbelief in their walk of salvation. Still saved due to their 'Passover' faith. Still going to heaven.

Lees

 

[Lees]

continued from post #(296)

"seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame" (Heb. 6:6)

In (Ex. 17:6) the people of Israel have no water. They complain to Moses and were ready to kill him. (Ex. 17:4) God instructs Moses to the Rock of Horeb, to go and smite it and water would come out. And Moses did, and water came out. (Ex. 17:1-7) And that Rock would go with the Israelites in their journeys. We learn in the New Testament that that Rock represented Christ. (1 Cor. 10:3-4) Thus when Moses smote the Rock, it was a picture of Christ being smitten.

Later, (Num. 20:1-5), once again, the people of Israel have no water and are thirsty and complain to Moses and Aaron. Moses and Aaron go to the Lord. He tells them to go and speak to the Rock. (Num. 20:6-8) But Moses and Aaron are angry with the people of Israel. And instead of speaking to the Rock, they smote it twice. And water came out anyway, but the Lord was angry.

Note what their sin was. (Num. 20:12) "And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them." Unbelief. Just like the unbelief of those who died in the wilderness. Moses and Aaron were certainly believers, but they fell into unbelief just like with those who died in the wilderness.

Because that Rock represented Christ, the Rock smitten the first time represented Christ smitten. But no need to smite Him again. Thus God tells Moses to speak to the Rock. When Moses didn't, when he smote the Rock twice, he crucified Christ again and put Him to an open shame. And for that he was not allowed to take Israel into the promised land.

Moses later tried to repent and asked the LORD to let him go over. (Num. 3:23-25) But God would not. (Num. 3:26-27)

Does anyone believe Moses didn't go to Heaven? Of course not. But his sin did cost him in his walk in this life. Did God still love Moses and Aaron. Of course He did.

So, I believe (Heb. 6:1-8) is a serious warning to us believers. But not the loss of eternal life. The loss of coming up short in our walk with the LORD. (Heb. 4:1)

Lees

 

[CrowCross]

Crucifying the Lord all over again is denying the Lord, which is damnation.

True faith is from God (Php 1:29), it is salvation (Eph 2:8-9) and it is never lost.
All apostasy is falling away (Heb 6:6) from a faith that is not genuine and never saved.

Are you saying the Jews in the desert didn't have true faith...they were all lost?

 

[Lees]

continued from post #(297)

(Heb. 6:7-8) "For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briars is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

Just because we see fire, or words related to fire such as 'burned', we immediately think hell fire. If the phrase here in (Heb. 6:8), "whose end is to be burned" speaks to the fire of hell or the lake of fire, why does it say 'is nigh unto cursing'? Being 'nigh unto cursing' means you are not cursed, but getting close.

That earth which produced that for which it was dressed, good vegetation, is blessed by God. (Heb. 6:7) But that earth which beareth the thorns and briars is rejected. (Heb. 6:8) And is to be burned. Why does a farmer or rancher burn off much of his land at times? Because it is non-profitable. It grows only thorns and thistles. He doesn't burn it to destroy the earth. He burns it to remove that which is a hindrance. And that is the position of the believer here in (Heb. 6:1-8). He is bearing thorns and briars, nigh unto being cursed. His end is to be burned.

But, burned for what? To spend eternity in hell? No. Burned to be saved. (1 Cor. 3:11-15) "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

That generation of saved Israelites who died in the wilderness will get into the land, but only after death. Moses will get into the land after death. And many of those Jews in the book of (Hebrews) who became Christians but turned back to the Mosaic Law and economy, will get into the land, but only after death.

And we who are Christians today can apply the same. If we turn away from God and Christ back to the world, then we can expect to produce nothing but briars and thorns. We can expect nothing but the judgement of God. Not a loss of eternal life, but a loss of a certain aspect of salvation that we can no longer enter into here. And, to me, that is a serious and heartbreaking consequence.

And so Paul encourages us, "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation...."

Lees

 

[Mr GLee]

Because that generation of Israelites was not allowed to repent and not allowed into the land and doomed to die in the wilderness, does that mean they all lost their eternal life? Of course not. We know that not all Israel are Israel. (Rom. 9:6) So no doubt there were many who were not believers. But the vast majority were believing Jews. They as a people professed saving faith when in Egypt they put blood on their door posts and went inside. (Ex. 12:13) They as a people were then water baptized in the Sea. (1 Cor. 10:1-2) They drank of the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 10:4) They were a saved nation, a saved people of God.

You replied. We know that not all Israel are Israel. (Rom. 9:6)

It is at that point when many fall away. Same way a Jew is not one outwardly of the dying flesh but is a Jew inwardly born-again spirit

Satan goal to deceive dying mankind God is a Jewish dying man as King of king and not the Father the true King of kings.

No different then saying. Not all Christian's are born again Christian the new name the father named the bride ,previously calling her Isarael. Christian A more befitting name to name the bride of all nations, literally meaning "resident of the eternal city of Christ"

God is not a racist