GOD CREATED MAN (ADAM) SINFUL

[Kermos]

OK, He didn't need to.....BUT he did.


Why are you even arguing this point?


Are you a prophet that you know this?

Hello CrowCross and @jeremiah1five ,

Let's visit a couple of passages:

Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat; and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.
(Genesis 2:16-17)

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these.
(Isaiah 45:7)
​

Notice, the word "evil" occurs in both passages.

In Truth (John 14:6), both occurrences of the English word "evil" are translated from the same Hebrew word "רַע" (Strong's 7451 - ra' - bad, evil).

Those translators who translate רַע to evil in one place (Genesis 2:17) and to calamity another place (Isaiah 45:7) introduce inconsistency and confusion.

CrowCross, the true English translation of the Word of God is "I" "create evil" (Isaiah 45:7), so, now, back to where you wrote "that makes God the author of sin".

Behold, the Word of God says NOT that God is evil, but, rather, that "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these." (Isaiah 45:7).

 

[jeremiah1five]

Soul has nothing to do with dying flesh his sufferings the pangs of hell cries out to the father it is found in Matthew . Not my will but your will Father the one and onlypowerful God The flesh profits for zero

Now you are making things up, I never said Jesus the Son of man is not a Jewish man .

Logos is the works of the Holy Spirit that works in dying mankind.

God is not a Jewish man or any man . The Spirit gives new spirit life. Dying flesh profits for Zero Nothing.


Why would I promote the abomination of desolation dying mankind standing in the place of our invisible God

God is not a man .The prophecy you offered has nothing to do with the doctrine that God is not a man .

What about the Holy Spirit is it a Jewish man ?

Thanks, "Sherlock" Glee

 

[jeremiah1five]

Not according to Jesus Christ under the New Covenant as He is Lord of the Sabbath and not the sabbath lord over Him for why His disciples were blameless for profaning the sabbath in Matthew 12:1-8 KJV <--- You should have read that before replying.

You asked me concerning Judaism and Judaism still is practiced by observing the Sabbath.

Saints had the Holy Spirit albeit temporarily as it was that the Holy Spirit can leave them, unlike the saints under the New Covenant.

It's the same. When the prophet or king or priest (and certain that built the Tabernacle) prophesied it was through the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit. He never left them nor forsake them.

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

A king.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
1 Chronicles 5:26And the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul king of Assyria, and the spirit of Tilgathpilneser king of Assyria, and he carried them away, even the Reubenites, and the Gadites, and the half tribe of Manasseh, and brought them unto Halah, and Habor, and Hara, and to the river Gozan, unto this day.
God's words acknowledges these sinful kings in His words to stir them up.
If you had heed His words in the Sermon on the Mount, you should know that.

Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

If you'd first recognize Jesus is speaking to Jews. Jesus wasn't sent to the Gentiles; He was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Jesus sent His disciples before He ascended to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Jesus was never sent to Gentiles in Scripture. So, there's the context of ALL the New Covenant.

That is how much higher the bar has been raised by Jesus as an example. Note the consequence in verse 29 for His followers not doing that.

Letter of the Law and Spirit of the Law are the same. It's still the same Law.

This warning was given to those saved believers that would follow Him as His disciples ( both Gentiles & the Jews ) as that repercussions for not looking to Him for help to cast down wicked thoughts & imaginations to think on good thing is "Gehenna" or "geena" which is the Greek word that hell was translated from in English. This is not the after life hell but the refuse place as a dumping ground outside of Jerusalem. The Lord also changed/added to the meaning of that word as also meaning the valley of slaughter.

Those words were written to Jewish Christians. The whole of the New Covenant Scriptures were written to Jewish Christians - except Saul's letter to Gentile Timothy. But those are a special case as they are not to the Jewish Church but personal.

Jeremiah 19:6 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter. 7 And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.

So at the pre great tribulation rapture event, as the Bridegroom, He will receive the abiding bride of Christ to that City of God above to participate in the Marriage Supper.

Show me in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets where God is betrothed to Gentiles.
Psst...you won't find it because it's not there. So why does the Gentile Church believe something that's not there. Talk about "imaginations and every high thing that is exalted against Christ!"

Those "disqualified" and thus reprobate, are left behind to die in what is coming on that earth, that fiery calamity on the third of the earth ( Revelation 8:7 ) and the coming great tribulation with the beast waging war on the left behind saints & new believers as of result of the everlasting gospel spread by that 1st angel after the rapture event.

The Gentile Church will go through the Time of Jacob's Trouble along with Israel. Personally, I believe the Gentile Church will be among "the nations" in Zechariah that God will bring against Israel. And once the Gentile Church REALLY learn God used them to make His Bride Israel jealous they will turn. They are turning now. Just wait when this generation passes away and Millennials start taking control of this country. I know a great deal of Gentile Christians who even now oppose Israel, and if they are not doing it at the ballot box they're doing it in Gentile Christian theology like Replacement Theology or trying to steal Israel's inheritance by saying because they are Christ's they are Abraham's seed and things like that.

So kind of the same as a refuse dump outside of that New Jerusalem and where they are left at in Babylon USA is the valley of slaughter as saints elsewhere will be slaughter by the beast as well. Do note Revelation 18th chapter of the saints dead in her for why scripture still identifies them as still saints though left behind and thus still saved? Thus the power of God in salvation for all who believe in Jesus Christ.

The man of sin is hidden. That's because of the Presence of the Holy Spirit in the earth. One cannot be born again without the Holy Spirit and if the Holy Spirit withdraws Himself then the man of sin is revealed and not many will be saved except Israel for that is the time God turns His full attention back on Israel and then all Israel shall be saved as per covenant. Gentile Christians will not like their situation when their and Israel's places are changed. During the Times of the Gentiles Israel was blinded and God began bringing in Gentiles. In the future the Gentile Christians will take backseat as God takes away Israel blindness, send two Jewish witnesses and begin to restore building His Church first began on Pentecost with 3000 Jews being saved and on the first day.

Seems like Paul was saying the Gentiles knew right from wrong anyway, even in regards to the inner parts of the hearts.

Doesn't matter. Without the anointing their prayers are sin.

Romans 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that

He's writing to Jewish Christians and Jews.
Scripture is Scripture. God says what He means and He means what He says. It's men's interpretations that are the problem. Like interpreting Galatians 3:28-29 as though Saul was writing to Gentiles is one error. He's not. All his letters were written to Jewish Christians. He may speak of Gentiles but there were also Gentile proselytes in the early Church of Jewish Christians.
All God did was give Adam the KNOWLEDGE of their sinfulness, the tree nor their disobedience did not make them sinful. God had to start somewhere and He started by creating a sinful man and woman, gave the command of thou shalt not thus proving they were sinners before they sinned, and the rest is history.

Scripture cannot go against scripture. That is why these "so called" lost books of the Bible are not accepted as scripture for they have writings going against the accepted scripture. And so you should ask the Lord for wisdom & discernment in regards to your teachings.

It is He that is giving me these understandings. And I'm not the only one. I'm glad I'm not the only one. I would be like Martin Luther who posted on the Wittenburg Castle forum about Justification and everyone went NUTS saying he was teaching devil stuff and the things he went through by believing to a minority holding. But now justification is a major doctrine. But God used one man and brought upon him the wrath of the Roman Catholic Church. So, I'm in good company.
Cornelius may have been a God-Fearer. He was one circumcision short of becoming a member in covenant. Peter's message in Acts 2 was to Israel, not Gentiles. God made no covenant with Gentiles. He is saving Gentiles without a covenant AND there's a reason why there is no Gentile Scriptures. That's because God made no covenant with Gentiles nor to any seed of Gentiles.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The difference between law keeping and looking to Jesus Christ to do His work in them is key as they did not command them to do this.

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

They had considered it as laying that burden on them....

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

When they rest in Jesus Christ to do this through the Holy Spirit in them, then there is no burden, when rolling it away to Jesus to do it.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The rapture is when God will judge His House first as the Bridegroom and so it is going to happen. 1 Peter 4:17

Not every saved believer will be found ready for why they, and Jewish believers, will be left behind. When they look to Jesus Christ to help them lay aside every weight & sin daily & not be ensnared by the cares of this life, they can pray for that escape that fire coming on the earth;

Luke 21:33-36;12:40-49;2 Peter 3:3-15 KJV <---- click on link to read that if you want to know where I got that from and as a reminder, at the time Jesus said that in Luke's references, it was to the Jews originally but that was for all saved believers that seek to be His disciples which means that includes the Gentile believers as well.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Considering how one becomes a son of God now by believing in Him, then all saved believers are Israel, but not every saved believer will be ready for why Jesus is warning His disciples to be ready or else.

Many false prophets will arise but their false teachings has a way of working its way into the believers lives through other less obvious sources.

There will be a Third Temple after the rapture event. Talks for it has begun. They even have the red heifers now and all the stuff for the inside and outside of that Temple. All they need now is the permission.

Prophesy dictate that the outer courts will go to the Gentiles and the latest information is they could rebuild that Temple without removing the Dome of the Rock. All they need now is that peace treaty that will give them that permission. Once USA is gone after the rapture event is why Israel's enemies will give them permission to build that third Temple to assure them that no one is going to attack them any more nor remove Israel off of the map.

The 144,000 witnesses of the 12,000 from each 12 tribes of Israel will be saved after the rapture event, plus the two witnesses ( I suspect will be Enoch & Elijah ) that will show up in Jerusalem at the beginning of the great tribulation until half way through it for when they die, and get resurrected and called to come up hither before the bowls are poured out on all those with the mark of the beast.

So trust Jesus Christ today as your Saviour that you are saved for believing in Him & that God has raised Him from the dead and then trust Jesus Christ as your personal Good Shepherd & Friend to help you to follow Him because you can do nothing without Him and ask him for help to not be overcharged by the cares of this life that you are free from all commitments & at liberty to escape for when He comes.

The Bride and Church of God is Israel.
The covenants are with Israel.
God made no covenant with Gentiles.
At the Marriage Supper Israel is there through covenant.
Gentiles are there by invitation.
Matt. 22.

Now, let's get back to the fact that God created man (Adam) sinful.

 

[ChristB4us]

You asked me concerning Judaism and Judaism still is practiced by observing the Sabbath.

It's the same. When the prophet or king or priest (and certain that built the Tabernacle) prophesied it was through the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit. He never left them nor forsake them.

A king.

If you'd first recognize Jesus is speaking to Jews. Jesus wasn't sent to the Gentiles; He was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Jesus sent His disciples before He ascended to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Jesus was never sent to Gentiles in Scripture. So, there's the context of ALL the New Covenant.

Letter of the Law and Spirit of the Law are the same. It's still the same Law.

Those words were written to Jewish Christians. The whole of the New Covenant Scriptures were written to Jewish Christians - except Saul's letter to Gentile Timothy. But those are a special case as they are not to the Jewish Church but personal.

Jesus was defending His disciples for profaning the sabbath day to the Jews, So how did He do that as speaking to the Jews?

Matthew 12:1-8 KJV <---- last chance to answer that question with His help.

 

[ChristB4us]

Show me in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets where God is betrothed to Gentiles.
Psst...you won't find it because it's not there. So why does the Gentile Church believe something that's not there. Talk about "imaginations and every high thing that is exalted against Christ!"

The apostle John testified to this.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jesus did begin to ignore this Gentile in His ministry, but in the end He did respond anyway to that faith of that woman from Canaan..

Matthew 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

The Gentile Church will go through the Time of Jacob's Trouble along with Israel. Personally, I believe the Gentile Church will be among "the nations" in Zechariah that God will bring against Israel. And once the Gentile Church REALLY learn God used them to make His Bride Israel jealous they will turn. They are turning now. Just wait when this generation passes away and Millennials start taking control of this country. I know a great deal of Gentile Christians who even now oppose Israel, and if they are not doing it at the ballot box they're doing it in Gentile Christian theology like Replacement Theology or trying to steal Israel's inheritance by saying because they are Christ's they are Abraham's seed and things like that.

The man of sin is hidden. That's because of the Presence of the Holy Spirit in the earth. One cannot be born again without the Holy Spirit and if the Holy Spirit withdraws Himself then the man of sin is revealed and not many will be saved except Israel for that is the time God turns His full attention back on Israel and then all Israel shall be saved as per covenant. Gentile Christians will not like their situation when their and Israel's places are changed. During the Times of the Gentiles Israel was blinded and God began bringing in Gentiles. In the future the Gentile Christians will take backseat as God takes away Israel blindness, send two Jewish witnesses and begin to restore building His Church first began on Pentecost with 3000 Jews being saved and on the first day.

Obviously, the Lord has to reveal that which is hidden to you.

 

[ChristB4us]

Doesn't matter. Without the anointing their prayers are sin.

Why did Jesus responded to the woman from Canaan then? And did not Jesus say this as well in that Sermon on the Mount?

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And if you say who is my neighbor as well as who is my enemy from the Jewish mindset, then see why Jesus responded to the Canaan woman.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. 29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? 30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, 34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. 36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? 37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Or how about His ministry to the Samaritan woman at the well? Look at what He had told her.

John 4:6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour. 7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink. 8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.) 9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. 10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. 11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? 12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw. 16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. 17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: 18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

You are probably thinking "Shut the front door!!!"

 

[ChristB4us]

He's writing to Jewish Christians and Jews.

Funny how that is also an epistle to the Romans for the Gentile believers to know about Jewish believers in error that would attempt to bring them under the law of Moses.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith

Scripture is Scripture. God says what He means and He means what He says. It's men's interpretations that are the problem. Like interpreting Galatians 3:28-29 as though Saul was writing to Gentiles is one error. He's not. All his letters were written to Jewish Christians. He may speak of Gentiles but there were also Gentile proselytes in the early Church of Jewish Christians.

All God did was give Adam the KNOWLEDGE of their sinfulness, the tree nor their disobedience did not make them sinful. God had to start somewhere and He started by creating a sinful man and woman, gave the command of thou shalt not thus proving they were sinners before they sinned, and the rest is history.

It is He that is giving me these understandings. And I'm not the only one. I'm glad I'm not the only one. I would be like Martin Luther who posted on the Wittenburg Castle forum about Justification and everyone went NUTS saying he was teaching devil stuff and the things he went through by believing to a minority holding. But now justification is a major doctrine. But God used one man and brought upon him the wrath of the Roman Catholic Church. So, I'm in good company.
Cornelius may have been a God-Fearer. He was one circumcision short of becoming a member in covenant. Peter's message in Acts 2 was to Israel, not Gentiles. God made no covenant with Gentiles. He is saving Gentiles without a covenant AND there's a reason why there is no Gentile Scriptures. That's because God made no covenant with Gentiles nor to any seed of Gentiles.

It is about rightly dividing the word of truth by His grace & by His help for why scripture cannot go against scripture.

 

[CrowCross]

Hello CrowCross and @jeremiah1five ,

Let's visit a couple of passages:

​

Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat; and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.​

(Genesis 2:16-17)​

​

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these.​

(Isaiah 45:7)​

​

Notice, the word "evil" occurs in both passages.

In Truth (John 14:6), both occurrences of the English word "evil" are translated from the same Hebrew word "רַע" (Strong's 7451 - ra' - bad, evil).

Those translators who translate רַע to evil in one place (Genesis 2:17) and to calamity another place (Isaiah 45:7) introduce inconsistency and confusion.

CrowCross, the true English translation of the Word of God is "I" "create evil" (Isaiah 45:7), so, now, back to where you wrote "that makes God the author of sin".

Behold, the Word of God says NOT that God is evil, but, rather, that "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these." (Isaiah 45:7).

I believe calamity is a better word than evil. The poetic form of Hebrew parallelism shows evil is the wrong translation.

Light is the opposite of darkness....calamity is the opposite of peace....not evil.

 

[Josheb]

There are those that say Adam was created "good." But what does that mean? There is none good, that is God, Jesus said.

According to God Himself,

Genesis 1:31
God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

God made humans and God explicitly stated they were good.

There are two problems with the op and the occur at a foundational level. The first is the failure to discriminate between the pre-disobedient human living as a pre-disobedient creature in a pre-disobedient world and that of the post-disobedient human living as a disobedient creature living in a post-disobedient world. The second is the failure to exegete scripture accordingly.

He wouldn't even accept that designation and He is the Son of the Living God. "Good" doesn't mean "holy," or "righteous," or "sinless." Those words don't appear in Genesis creation. Even the word "morally" good doesn't appear here. Nor does "innocent." But the word "good" merely means, "good enough," or "well [enough]" or "to specification." God says His creation is "to specification" or "well enough" after a creative act. He says this after creating the grass and herb yielding seed. Surely, grass and herb yielding seed is not righteous, or holy, or sinless, is it? No, it is not. But they were created to God's specification, and He pronounced the grass and herb yielding seed good [to specification.]

This is a cop out. The utilitarian ethic described in this portion of the op is not what scripture states and it is not the precedent established by God throughout His word. The utilitarian ethic tries to separate morality from efficacy; if it works then it is good. Not only is this a false dichotomy repeatedly repudiated by God throughout His word, but it leads to the absolute opposite of spiritual and moral good because it justifies the end by the means.

The means do not justify the end.

God created the first man and woman sinful.

Genesis 1:31 explicitly states otherwise and attempts to impose a utilitarian ethic does not change that fact.

The Law/Command of God "Thou shalt not eat of it" showed they were sinful before any act of sin as Paul explains. The man and woman disobeyed God

This is the complete opposite of what Paul said. Paul explicitly stated sin entered the world by one man's disobedience, and that happened at Genesis 3:6-7 which came AFTER God calling man good in Genesis 1:31. This is an obvious example where the failure to discriminate between pre-disobedient conditions and post-disobedient conditions occurs. Nowhere does scripture state "God showed they were sinful before any act of sin."

EVERYONE should re-read this op, going line by line while asking, "Is that a verse written before sin's entrance into the world, or afterwards? Is that a verse written about conditions existing prior to Genesis 3:6, or afterward?" because the answers to those two very valid (and very simple) questions are very important to understand the answer to "Did the righteous, holy, perfect, sinless, almighty God make something sinful and then call it 'good' in disobedience to His own standards?"

Which is really what the title of this op means .

. He said they would by the very Law/Command to not eat from the Tree....................... Anything and everything in creation is the result of God. He is the first cause of everything in His creation. Nothing just shows up. If anything exists it is because God caused it. God is Sovereign over His creation.

Every line of that section in the op is more and more, repeated abject failure to discriminate between the pre-disobedient world and the post-disobedient world and apply scripture accordingly. It is grossly erroneous to take verses written about the post-disobedient world and apply them to the pre-disobedient world. It is grossly erroneous to take verses written about the post-disobedient Adam and apply them to the pre-disobedient Adam. It is completely inappropriate to take verses written about post-disobedient humanity and apply them to the good, sinless, and pre-disobedient Adam.

God is the standard by which anything and everything shall be judged against.
Bible Study.

That might be the only sentence in the entire op that is correct.

It was good (pun intended ) of the op to cite "miss the mark" as the measure of sin. It was equally good to note the ultimate mark is the glory of God. However, despite the good, just, and scriptural basis for this measure, the op failed to render the mark correctly in two ways. The first is that God does not expect humans to be God. The second is failing to acknowledge the glory of God that was the good and sinless pre-disobedient Adam and Eve. The first error commits the fallacy of false equivalence. God is not human, and humans are not God. The Creator is not a creature, and the creatures is not and never will be the Creator. These two entities are categorically different and will never be identical or synonymous with each other. Therefore, any understanding of "God's glory" as the "mark" by which humanity is to be held cannot and should not ignore this inescapable difference - a difference made by the Maker of All Things, the Creator. The second problem goes back to the failure to discriminate between pre- and post- conditions. When Paul writes, "... all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..." he is talking about the pre-disobedient Adam and Eve. All have sinned and fall short of the standard God established when He first made man in His image, male and female He made them, and they were good, unashamed, and sinless. That was God's glory as it applied to the first two humans.

It is the sin that causes the falling short of the glory.

It is NOT the falling short of glory that caused the sin.

This op has it backwards.

Even in the post-disobedient state human males are the glory of God. 1 Corinthians 11:7 says so.

1 Corinthians 11:7
For a man should not have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.

This op is what happens when scripture is used selectively, and reason ignores fallacy. Even in his sinful state humanity retains something of the glory of God. Notice how Paul has not referenced the relationship between God and man after Genesis 3:6-7 but has, instead, appealed to the created order, the way things were prior to Genesis 3:6-7. This is why the op fails: it fails to discriminate between pre-disobedient conditions and post-disobedient conditions and because of that failure to correctly divide God''s word it mistakenly takes scriptures written specifically about post-disobedient conditions and attempts to apply them to pre-disobedient conditions when and where there was no sin.

 

[Ghada]

There is a lot to cover so bear with me.
Let's go.

There is no difference between the Laws of God and His Commands.
The Laws of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law.

What was the 'make-up' of man? Was he holy? Righteous? Sinless? Innocent? Good? And what does "good" mean?

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:10.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:20.

Knowledge of sin. Isn't that the name given to the tree in Eden the Garden of God?
The Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil.
So, the purpose of the Tree was to give the man the KNOWLEDGE of sin. It didn't make him sinful.
But did Christ die for the knowledge of sin? No, He did not. He died for sin.

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Romans 4:15.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16–17.

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13.

But there was a law in the Garden. There was a "thou shalt not" in the Garden, and the Law shows us we are sinners. It doesn't make us sinners, but it shows we are sinners.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:7–9.

If there is no law, there is no sin.
But there was a Law, a Command in the Garden. God said, "Thou shalt not [eat of it]."
As Paul says, the existence of a Law/Command shows us we are sinners. Paul says, "I had not KNOWN lust, except the Law/Command had said, thou shalt not covet."
So, let's apply this to the first man.

ADAM: "I had not KNOWN sin but by the Law/Command. I had not KNOWN disobedience except the Law/Command said, thou shalt not [eat of it.]"

Pretty straightforward. The Law/Command in the Garden showed that the first man (Adam) was a sinner BEFORE he sinned for the existence of Law/Command shows us we are sinners, as Paul said, "I had not KNOWN sin but by the [existence] of the Law/Command. Paul didn't have to lust to have broken the Law against coveting. It was the Law/Command that showed him he was a sinner before the actual act of sin.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:9.

He doesn't say he committed any sin by which he died, but WHEN the Commandment came, sin revived, and he died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Romans 7:10-11.

What was the created 'make-up' of the first man (and woman)? They were created sinful. And what is sin? Sin is death, and death is sin. And the Greek word in the KJV translated as "sin" is "hamartia." This word derives from [#264] "hamartano" and it simply means [to] "miss the mark."
What is the "mark" that is "missed"?
The Glory of God. Or the Glory that is God.

There are those that say Adam was created "good." But what does that mean? There is none good, that is God, Jesus said. He wouldn't even accept that designation and He is the Son of the Living God. "Good" doesn't mean "holy," or "righteous," or "sinless." Those words don't appear in Genesis creation. Even the word "morally" good doesn't appear here. Nor does "innocent." But the word "good" merely means, "good enough," or "well [enough]" or "to specification." God says His creation is "to specification" or "well enough" after a creative act. He says this after creating the grass and herb yielding seed. Surely, grass and herb yielding seed is not righteous, or holy, or sinless, is it? No, it is not. But they were created to God's specification, and He pronounced the grass and herb yielding seed good [to specification.]

God created the first man and woman sinful. The Law/Command of God "Thou shalt not eat of it" showed they were sinful before any act of sin as Paul explains. The man and woman disobeyed God. He said they would by the very Law/Command to not eat from the Tree. And the Tree only gave them the KNOWLEDGE of their sin for when the Law/Command came, sin revived, and they died. There was no act of sin by which they became sinners. They sinned BECAUSE they were sinners as the Law/Command says they were.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:
1 Samuel 24:13.

That's the same as saying, "sin comes from sinners."
Adam and the woman sinned because they were created sinful. They are NOT sinful because they sinned.
The Doctrine of Imputation teaches that it was a nature-swap with sinful man. At the cross the only begotten Son became a sin offering. He didn't die for any act of sin, but for the sinful nature God created man. A nature-swap. We are imputed His righteous nature, and He is imputed our sinful nature.

21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Corinthians 5:21.

It is a nature-swap. It doesn't say, "For he hath made him [to be] the acts of sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteous acts of God in him."
If He died for the sinful acts this would still leave the sin nature in man and we surely cannot enter heaven with a sin nature if Christ only died for our acts of sin.

God created the first man sinful, that is, "missing the mark" of the Glory of God, or "fallen short of His Glory."
There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His Glory to NO ONE.
The only Person who can stand before a Holy God blameless is the Holy Son.
But you say, "that makes God the author of sin."
No, I don't say that. God does. Through His prophet Isaiah:

7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7.

Anything and everything in creation is the result of God. He is the first cause of everything in His creation.
Nothing just shows up. If anything exists it is because God caused it. God is Sovereign over His creation.

For these initial reasons and Scripture I believe God created the first man and woman (Adam and Eve) sinful.
That's the only way they can be created for there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His Glory to NO ONE.
Man was not created possessing any of the Nature or Deific Attributes of God. If man possessed even just one Deific Attribute of God, he would by necessity must possess ALL Deific Attributes of God else he would still fall short of the Glory of God. God is the standard by which anything and everything shall be judged against.
Bible Study.

So, your christ is a maker of sin and sinners.

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Not mine.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

My Christ lightens every man coming into the world, not darkens us all from conception and birth like yours.

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Ghada]

There is a lot to cover so bear with me.
Let's go.

There is no difference between the Laws of God and His Commands.
The Laws of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law.

What was the 'make-up' of man? Was he holy? Righteous? Sinless? Innocent? Good? And what does "good" mean?

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:10.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:20.

Knowledge of sin. Isn't that the name given to the tree in Eden the Garden of God?
The Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil.
So, the purpose of the Tree was to give the man the KNOWLEDGE of sin. It didn't make him sinful.
But did Christ die for the knowledge of sin? No, He did not. He died for sin.

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Romans 4:15.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16–17.

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13.

But there was a law in the Garden. There was a "thou shalt not" in the Garden, and the Law shows us we are sinners. It doesn't make us sinners, but it shows we are sinners.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:7–9.

If there is no law, there is no sin.
But there was a Law, a Command in the Garden. God said, "Thou shalt not [eat of it]."
As Paul says, the existence of a Law/Command shows us we are sinners. Paul says, "I had not KNOWN lust, except the Law/Command had said, thou shalt not covet."
So, let's apply this to the first man.

ADAM: "I had not KNOWN sin but by the Law/Command. I had not KNOWN disobedience except the Law/Command said, thou shalt not [eat of it.]"

Pretty straightforward. The Law/Command in the Garden showed that the first man (Adam) was a sinner BEFORE he sinned for the existence of Law/Command shows us we are sinners, as Paul said, "I had not KNOWN sin but by the [existence] of the Law/Command. Paul didn't have to lust to have broken the Law against coveting. It was the Law/Command that showed him he was a sinner before the actual act of sin.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:9.

He doesn't say he committed any sin by which he died, but WHEN the Commandment came, sin revived, and he died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Romans 7:10-11.

What was the created 'make-up' of the first man (and woman)? They were created sinful. And what is sin? Sin is death, and death is sin. And the Greek word in the KJV translated as "sin" is "hamartia." This word derives from [#264] "hamartano" and it simply means [to] "miss the mark."
What is the "mark" that is "missed"?
The Glory of God. Or the Glory that is God.

There are those that say Adam was created "good." But what does that mean? There is none good, that is God, Jesus said. He wouldn't even accept that designation and He is the Son of the Living God. "Good" doesn't mean "holy," or "righteous," or "sinless." Those words don't appear in Genesis creation. Even the word "morally" good doesn't appear here. Nor does "innocent." But the word "good" merely means, "good enough," or "well [enough]" or "to specification." God says His creation is "to specification" or "well enough" after a creative act. He says this after creating the grass and herb yielding seed. Surely, grass and herb yielding seed is not righteous, or holy, or sinless, is it? No, it is not. But they were created to God's specification, and He pronounced the grass and herb yielding seed good [to specification.]

God created the first man and woman sinful. The Law/Command of God "Thou shalt not eat of it" showed they were sinful before any act of sin as Paul explains. The man and woman disobeyed God. He said they would by the very Law/Command to not eat from the Tree. And the Tree only gave them the KNOWLEDGE of their sin for when the Law/Command came, sin revived, and they died. There was no act of sin by which they became sinners. They sinned BECAUSE they were sinners as the Law/Command says they were.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:
1 Samuel 24:13.

That's the same as saying, "sin comes from sinners."
Adam and the woman sinned because they were created sinful. They are NOT sinful because they sinned.
The Doctrine of Imputation teaches that it was a nature-swap with sinful man. At the cross the only begotten Son became a sin offering. He didn't die for any act of sin, but for the sinful nature God created man. A nature-swap. We are imputed His righteous nature, and He is imputed our sinful nature.

21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Corinthians 5:21.

It is a nature-swap. It doesn't say, "For he hath made him [to be] the acts of sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteous acts of God in him."
If He died for the sinful acts this would still leave the sin nature in man and we surely cannot enter heaven with a sin nature if Christ only died for our acts of sin.

God created the first man sinful, that is, "missing the mark" of the Glory of God, or "fallen short of His Glory."
There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His Glory to NO ONE.
The only Person who can stand before a Holy God blameless is the Holy Son.
But you say, "that makes God the author of sin."
No, I don't say that. God does. Through His prophet Isaiah:

7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7.

Anything and everything in creation is the result of God. He is the first cause of everything in His creation.
Nothing just shows up. If anything exists it is because God caused it. God is Sovereign over His creation.

For these initial reasons and Scripture I believe God created the first man and woman (Adam and Eve) sinful.
That's the only way they can be created for there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His Glory to NO ONE.
Man was not created possessing any of the Nature or Deific Attributes of God. If man possessed even just one Deific Attribute of God, he would by necessity must possess ALL Deific Attributes of God else he would still fall short of the Glory of God. God is the standard by which anything and everything shall be judged against.
Bible Study.

Your christ came in only after Adam and Eve were created by God.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Only when a person follows a false christ and sins against God, then that one is made a sinner and god in his own eyes.

 

[Ghada]

There is a lot to cover so bear with me.
Let's go.

There is no difference between the Laws of God and His Commands.
The Laws of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law.

What was the 'make-up' of man? Was he holy? Righteous? Sinless? Innocent? Good? And what does "good" mean?

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:10.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:20.

Knowledge of sin. Isn't that the name given to the tree in Eden the Garden of God?
The Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil.
So, the purpose of the Tree was to give the man the KNOWLEDGE of sin. It didn't make him sinful.
But did Christ die for the knowledge of sin? No, He did not. He died for sin.

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Romans 4:15.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16–17.

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13.

But there was a law in the Garden. There was a "thou shalt not" in the Garden, and the Law shows us we are sinners. It doesn't make us sinners, but it shows we are sinners.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:7–9.

If there is no law, there is no sin.
But there was a Law, a Command in the Garden. God said, "Thou shalt not [eat of it]."
As Paul says, the existence of a Law/Command shows us we are sinners. Paul says, "I had not KNOWN lust, except the Law/Command had said, thou shalt not covet."
So, let's apply this to the first man.

ADAM: "I had not KNOWN sin but by the Law/Command. I had not KNOWN disobedience except the Law/Command said, thou shalt not [eat of it.]"

Pretty straightforward. The Law/Command in the Garden showed that the first man (Adam) was a sinner BEFORE he sinned for the existence of Law/Command shows us we are sinners, as Paul said, "I had not KNOWN sin but by the [existence] of the Law/Command. Paul didn't have to lust to have broken the Law against coveting. It was the Law/Command that showed him he was a sinner before the actual act of sin.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:9.

He doesn't say he committed any sin by which he died, but WHEN the Commandment came, sin revived, and he died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Romans 7:10-11.

What was the created 'make-up' of the first man (and woman)? They were created sinful. And what is sin? Sin is death, and death is sin. And the Greek word in the KJV translated as "sin" is "hamartia." This word derives from [#264] "hamartano" and it simply means [to] "miss the mark."
What is the "mark" that is "missed"?
The Glory of God. Or the Glory that is God.

There are those that say Adam was created "good." But what does that mean? There is none good, that is God, Jesus said. He wouldn't even accept that designation and He is the Son of the Living God. "Good" doesn't mean "holy," or "righteous," or "sinless." Those words don't appear in Genesis creation. Even the word "morally" good doesn't appear here. Nor does "innocent." But the word "good" merely means, "good enough," or "well [enough]" or "to specification." God says His creation is "to specification" or "well enough" after a creative act. He says this after creating the grass and herb yielding seed. Surely, grass and herb yielding seed is not righteous, or holy, or sinless, is it? No, it is not. But they were created to God's specification, and He pronounced the grass and herb yielding seed good [to specification.]

God created the first man and woman sinful. The Law/Command of God "Thou shalt not eat of it" showed they were sinful before any act of sin as Paul explains. The man and woman disobeyed God. He said they would by the very Law/Command to not eat from the Tree. And the Tree only gave them the KNOWLEDGE of their sin for when the Law/Command came, sin revived, and they died. There was no act of sin by which they became sinners. They sinned BECAUSE they were sinners as the Law/Command says they were.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:
1 Samuel 24:13.

That's the same as saying, "sin comes from sinners."
Adam and the woman sinned because they were created sinful. They are NOT sinful because they sinned.
The Doctrine of Imputation teaches that it was a nature-swap with sinful man. At the cross the only begotten Son became a sin offering. He didn't die for any act of sin, but for the sinful nature God created man. A nature-swap. We are imputed His righteous nature, and He is imputed our sinful nature.

21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Corinthians 5:21.

It is a nature-swap. It doesn't say, "For he hath made him [to be] the acts of sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteous acts of God in him."
If He died for the sinful acts this would still leave the sin nature in man and we surely cannot enter heaven with a sin nature if Christ only died for our acts of sin.

God created the first man sinful, that is, "missing the mark" of the Glory of God, or "fallen short of His Glory."
There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His Glory to NO ONE.
The only Person who can stand before a Holy God blameless is the Holy Son.
But you say, "that makes God the author of sin."
No, I don't say that. God does. Through His prophet Isaiah:

7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7.

Anything and everything in creation is the result of God. He is the first cause of everything in His creation.
Nothing just shows up. If anything exists it is because God caused it. God is Sovereign over His creation.

For these initial reasons and Scripture I believe God created the first man and woman (Adam and Eve) sinful.
That's the only way they can be created for there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His Glory to NO ONE.
Man was not created possessing any of the Nature or Deific Attributes of God. If man possessed even just one Deific Attribute of God, he would by necessity must possess ALL Deific Attributes of God else he would still fall short of the Glory of God. God is the standard by which anything and everything shall be judged against.
Bible Study.

So, the accusers against God are right after all. It is God's fault for making you that way.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Biblically speaking, it's not even the devil's fault, but your own.

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

 

[Kermos]

I believe calamity is a better word than evil. The poetic form of Hebrew parallelism shows evil is the wrong translation.

Light is the opposite of darkness....calamity is the opposite of peace....not evil.

You wrote "calamity is the opposite of peace" which is imprecise. War is the opposite of peace.

We discuss a passage from the Prophets (Nevi'im), not the Poetry (Ketuvim), so you must not impose your thoughts upon the Word of God recorded by the Prophet Isaiah.

The Prophet Isaiah recorded the Word of God "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these." (Isaiah 45:7).

Light and peace parallel. Both of these are good, a parallelism.

Darkness and evil parallel. Both of these are bad, a parallelism.

You, a mere human, change the Hebrew word "רַע" (Strong's 7451 - ra' - bad, evil) THAT GOD USED AS RECORDED IN BOTH GENESIS 2:16-17 and in Isaiah 45:7 into a different word that results in a redefinition of God according to your thoughts.

 

[Kermos]

According to God Himself,

Genesis 1:31
God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

God made humans and God explicitly stated they were good.

Please pay careful attention to point numbers 2 and 3 regarding God seeing the creation as good.

The attribute of man being created in the image according to the likeness of God - Attributes/Characteristics Compared And Contrasted

1. The attribute of man being created in the image according to the likeness of God
   WITH a targeted result of logical deductive reasoning leveraging compare and contrast of attributes/facilities
   SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)
   THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam
   IN particular God willpowering purported "free will" into man, specifically a free will into man in the likeness God's will, during the creation of Adam
   THEN Adam could not have used free will to perform evil against God
   BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)
   THEREFORE it follows that Man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God
   COMPARITIVELY this point's basis conveys that Adam who was made in the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26) could not use an Adam's will created by God inside Adam which is a duplicate of God's will (likeness of God's will) because God's will won't work against God so then Adams will could not work against God and since Adam disobeyed God, it is with certainty that the attribute of Adam's will was not made a duplicate of God's will (likeness of God's will).
   1. The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities
   2. God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature
   3. Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
   4. Scripture does not include the mention of God endowing Adam with free will.
   5. Man's free will is a precept of man (Matthew 15:9)
2. Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world
   SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)
   AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)
   AND no person can thwart God's Plan (Isaiah 14:27, Isaiah 46:11)
   THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)
   SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
   THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind
   SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden
   THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will
3. The timeline of Adam knowing good and evil
   BEFORE Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
   THEN Adam and Eve knew not good and evil
   AFTER Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
   THEN Adam and Eve knew good and evil
   FOR the delineation is clarified when God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)
   YET based on the Word of God saying "has become" recorded in Genesis 3:22
   THEN Adam did not know good and evil before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
   SO Adam did not know good and evil when God issued the command "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die!" (Genesis 2:17)
   THEREFORE at the time of eating, Adam listened (perceived) and followed the last that he heard about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
   WHICH Adam heard from Eve
   FOR God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17)
   SO Adam listened to Eve and Adam ate from the tree prior to knowing good and evil
   AND a person does good by obeying God; on the other hand, a person does evil by disobeying God
   SO free will choosing of good or choosing of evil is not the context
   AND action is the context
   SINCE good and evil are not known to Adam prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
   THEREFORE it follows that Adam was not endowed with the attribute of free will
4. An inherently good Adam would have assuredly and absolutely excluded eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
   BECAUSE an inherently good Adam would have acted in the good way of obedience to God's command (Genesis 2:16-17)
   WITH the good way being God's Way (John 14:6)
   YET "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18)
   AND it is written "God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day" (Genesis 1:31)
   NOTE in "it was very good", the word "it" is grammatically a third person singular thus referring to the entirety of creation being constructed well (good) on course with God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13)
   YET the word "it" is not third person plural in "it was very good" as in "they were very good" of which a third person plural is required in order to refer to an individual such as Adam or the Devil the Serpent
   AND the Word of God specifically excludes Adam from being good with "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18)
   SO the spirit of antichrist preaches that Adam with all mankind as good for any amount of time thus nullifying the need for the Savior
   BEHOLD that God saw the whole package, the complete creation, the "all" that He had made, that it was very good
   BUT God did not specify how the aggregate (all) that He had made was very good therein
   AND God did not specify any constituents of creation as being inherently good therein
   AND God creating "all that He had made" for God in Jesus Christ to come to earth to save evil man is very good
   SO with certainty, God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world is very good
   IN other words, if Adam was inherently good, then he could not have eaten from the tree the knowledge of good and evil
   BECAUSE it would have been impossible for an inherently good Adam to disobey God's command of not eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
   SINCE an inherently good Adam would have been the embodiment of obedience of God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
   AND an inherently good Adam would have unquestionably refrained from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil without him having the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22)
   THEREFORE an inherently good Adam would have done the opposite of good by eating of the tree the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6)
   SO an inherently good Adam would have unavoidably avoided eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
   BUT there is none righteous, not one (Psalm 143:2, Romans 3:10)
   AND there is none who does good, there is not even one (Psalm 53:3, Romans 3:12)
   SO there was no inherently good Adam
5. The attribute of "joining" - marriage
   1. Lord Jesus says a topically very profound statement of "from the beginning of creation, [God] made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man separate." (Mark 10:6-9)
   2. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Christ and the Bride of Christ, that is, the Assembly of God
   3. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to marriage between "male and female" (creatures both)
   4. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Adam and Eve, the man and the woman
   5. God does the joining, while, on the other hand, man and woman are only the joyful recipients
   6. The facility of "joining" is not attributed to man and/or woman
   7. The facility of "joining" is attributed to God
   THEREFORE God exclusively causes individuals to join into the Assembly of God.

For expanded topic coverage, please see this relevant essay Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor (not a ChristianForums.net website link destination),

If anyone venture a reply to this thread, I encourage diligent care for it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

May the Lord abound mercy and understanding and strength and grace in we His own for the Day approaches rapidly!

 

[jeremiah1five]

Jesus was defending His disciples for profaning the sabbath day to the Jews, So how did He do that as speaking to the Jews?

Matthew 12:1-8 KJV <---- last chance to answer that question with His help.

You asked me: "Where is your stand on the keeping of the sabbath day in respect to Judaism?"

My response was in my mind it didn't matter what I thought and gave you what Israel does. They keep their work six days, rest the seventh. That's OK with me. It's their religion.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The apostle John testified to this.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jesus did begin to ignore this Gentile in His ministry, but in the end He did respond anyway to that faith of that woman from Canaan..

Matthew 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.


Obviously, the Lord has to reveal that which is hidden to you.

I understand exactly what happened here.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Why did Jesus responded to the woman from Canaan then? And did not Jesus say this as well in that Sermon on the Mount?

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And if you say who is my neighbor as well as who is my enemy from the Jewish mindset, then see why Jesus responded to the Canaan woman.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. 29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? 30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, 34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. 36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? 37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Or how about His ministry to the Samaritan woman at the well? Look at what He had told her.

John 4:6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour. 7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink. 8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.) 9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. 10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. 11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? 12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw. 16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. 17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: 18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

You are probably thinking "Shut the front door!!!"

And get a rope!

OK, I read your Scriptures. What's your question? Or do you want me to respond to your erroneous understandings?

 

[ChristB4us]

You asked me: "Where is your stand on the keeping of the sabbath day in respect to Judaism?"

My response was in my mind it didn't matter what I thought and gave you what Israel does. They keep their work six days, rest the seventh. That's OK with me. It's their religion.

Then how about how your view of the sabbath day in respect to what Jesus says here in Matthew 12:1-8 KJV ?

 

[jeremiah1five]

So, your christ is a maker of sin and sinners.

God created man (Adam) sinful. Just by virtue of being created man is fallen short of the Eternal glory of God. If one is not eternal they fall short. If one is not omniscient they fall short. If one in not omnipotent they fall short.
In Adam's creation he was fallen short of the glory of God. The word for that is "sin."

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Not mine.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

My Christ lightens every man coming into the world, not darkens us all from conception and birth like yours.

The context of those words are that they are spoken to Israel. ALL Scripture is written by Jews to Jews.
The Law, Psalms, and Prophets are Hebrew/Jewish Scriptures.
The New Covenant writings of Saul, Peter, James, John, Matthew, etc., are written by Jewish Christians to and for other Jewish Christians.
Messiah was promised to Israel Messiah came to Israel. Messiah sent His disciples to Israel.
God is betrothed to Israel. The bride is Israel. The Church is Israel. Everything having to do with Israel with regard to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is all Israel.
Have I said an untruth?

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.