GOD CREATED MAN (ADAM) SINFUL

[Mr GLee]

There is a lot to cover so bear with me.
Let's go.

There is no difference between the Laws of God and His Commands.
The Laws of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law.

What was the 'make-up' of man? Was he holy? Righteous? Sinless? Innocent? Good? And what does "good" mean?

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:10.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:20.

Knowledge of sin. Isn't that the name given to the tree in Eden the Garden of God?
The Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil.
So, the purpose of the Tree was to give the man the KNOWLEDGE of sin. It didn't make him sinful.
But did Christ die for the knowledge of sin? No, He did not. He died for sin.

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Romans 4:15.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16–17.

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13.

But there was a law in the Garden. There was a "thou shalt not" in the Garden, and the Law shows us we are sinners. It doesn't make us sinners, but it shows we are sinners.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:7–9.

If there is no law, there is no sin.
But there was a Law, a Command in the Garden. God said, "Thou shalt not [eat of it]."
As Paul says, the existence of a Law/Command shows us we are sinners. Paul says, "I had not KNOWN lust, except the Law/Command had said, thou shalt not covet."
So, let's apply this to the first man.

ADAM: "I had not KNOWN sin but by the Law/Command. I had not KNOWN disobedience except the Law/Command said, thou shalt not [eat of it.]"

Pretty straightforward. The Law/Command in the Garden showed that the first man (Adam) was a sinner BEFORE he sinned for the existence of Law/Command shows us we are sinners, as Paul said, "I had not KNOWN sin but by the [existence] of the Law/Command. Paul didn't have to lust to have broken the Law against coveting. It was the Law/Command that showed him he was a sinner before the actual act of sin.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:9.

He doesn't say he committed any sin by which he died, but WHEN the Commandment came, sin revived, and he died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Romans 7:10-11.

What was the created 'make-up' of the first man (and woman)? They were created sinful. And what is sin? Sin is death, and death is sin. And the Greek word in the KJV translated as "sin" is "hamartia." This word derives from [#264] "hamartano" and it simply means [to] "miss the mark."
What is the "mark" that is "missed"?
The Glory of God. Or the Glory that is God.

There are those that say Adam was created "good." But what does that mean? There is none good, that is God, Jesus said. He wouldn't even accept that designation and He is the Son of the Living God. "Good" doesn't mean "holy," or "righteous," or "sinless." Those words don't appear in Genesis creation. Even the word "morally" good doesn't appear here. Nor does "innocent." But the word "good" merely means, "good enough," or "well [enough]" or "to specification." God says His creation is "to specification" or "well enough" after a creative act. He says this after creating the grass and herb yielding seed. Surely, grass and herb yielding seed is not righteous, or holy, or sinless, is it? No, it is not. But they were created to God's specification, and He pronounced the grass and herb yielding seed good [to specification.]

God created the first man and woman sinful. The Law/Command of God "Thou shalt not eat of it" showed they were sinful before any act of sin as Paul explains. The man and woman disobeyed God. He said they would by the very Law/Command to not eat from the Tree. And the Tree only gave them the KNOWLEDGE of their sin for when the Law/Command came, sin revived, and they died. There was no act of sin by which they became sinners. They sinned BECAUSE they were sinners as the Law/Command says they were.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:
1 Samuel 24:13.

That's the same as saying, "sin comes from sinners."
Adam and the woman sinned because they were created sinful. They are NOT sinful because they sinned.
The Doctrine of Imputation teaches that it was a nature-swap with sinful man. At the cross the only begotten Son became a sin offering. He didn't die for any act of sin, but for the sinful nature God created man. A nature-swap. We are imputed His righteous nature, and He is imputed our sinful nature.

21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Corinthians 5:21.

It is a nature-swap. It doesn't say, "For he hath made him [to be] the acts of sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteous acts of God in him."
If He died for the sinful acts this would still leave the sin nature in man and we surely cannot enter heaven with a sin nature if Christ only died for our acts of sin.

God created the first man sinful, that is, "missing the mark" of the Glory of God, or "fallen short of His Glory."
There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His Glory to NO ONE.
The only Person who can stand before a Holy God blameless is the Holy Son.
But you say, "that makes God the author of sin."
No, I don't say that. God does. Through His prophet Isaiah:

7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7.

Anything and everything in creation is the result of God. He is the first cause of everything in His creation.
Nothing just shows up. If anything exists it is because God caused it. God is Sovereign over His creation.

For these initial reasons and Scripture I believe God created the first man and woman (Adam and Eve) sinful.
That's the only way they can be created for there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His Glory to NO ONE.
Man was not created possessing any of the Nature or Deific Attributes of God. If man possessed even just one Deific Attribute of God, he would by necessity must possess ALL Deific Attributes of God else he would still fall short of the Glory of God. God is the standard by which anything and everything shall be judged against.
Bible Study.

Is God a Jewish man as King of kings? Or does salvation have nothing to with the dying flesh of mankind?

 

[Mr GLee]

My mistake. Here is the contradiction:

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Philippians 3:6.

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law Philippians 3:9.

One cannot be made righteous through the Law.

Yes it takes two laws The letter of the law the killer "thou shalt or you will die " and the unseen law of faith let there be and it was God good.

The two make one new perfect law the perfect or complete apart from the two no righteousness.. . . just death and destruction.

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I agree that one cannot be made righteous through the law.

If you read Philippians 3:6 in context, Paul was warning believers about the Judaizers and then shared his past as a Jew to show the vanity of Judaism as well as how after salvation in Christ Jesus, considered all that he had seen himself as a Jew but dung.

Honestly, there is no vanity in the Law (Judaism) God gave Moses for the children of Israel.

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:16–17.

The Word of God is Holy, not vanity. Even if you tell me, "It's vanity because there was 'fault' with it," I disagree. Saul is saying 'righteousness is in the Law' it's just that it couldn't save. Not at the time it was written. But NOW with the Advent of the Holy Spirit who is the Law Personified and He in us, the Law is perfect in all its ways because although it kills non-anointed people as it did before the cross, today due to our being a spiritual man and unaffected by its sentence of death God uses it to instruct us in righteousness from within not from without once written in stone.

16 All scripture [Law, Psalms, Prophets] is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16–17.

Saul is not calling the Law of Moses "dung" but [other] things in his life. H e would know better, but maybe not. He, also, was searching the Scripture to understand Messiah's effect on the covenants and that took time and one can see his own learning becoming more fine-tuned as he grew in knowledge, and he did GROW in knowledge in time, not immediately as though it all came to him in one sitting. He said "I know in part" signifying his learning of the new thing God was doing in the earth was progressive, line upon line, precept upon precept.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Rom. 7:12.

So when you read verse 6 in context, it was from the former mindset as he was as a Jew, but the reality is the last verse.

That's not what he was saying.

Philippians 3:1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Yes, circumcision.

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Again, there is righteousness in the Law. And since the Law is spiritual, its effect upon unatoned flesh is death. But we are not in the flesh if the Spirit of Christ dwells in us, right?

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

So Paul was showing a comparison as a former Jew in verses 4-6 to how he sees himself as a Jew in the past in light of the knowledge of Christ in verses 7-9.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Philippians 3:8.

That knowledge is in the Law. The problem in accessing it was as there was no Holy Spirit to allow understanding the spirit of the Law. But now there is. Spirit-filled pastors, teachers, bible study instructors throughout the land teach Jesus from the Law as we now see how everything in the Tabernacle pointed to Christ, the Bread or Life and Light of the world (of Jews.)

 

[jeremiah1five]

Is God a Jewish man as King of kings? Or does salvation have nothing to with the dying flesh of mankind?

Jesus is a Jewish man who will sit on the throne of David another Jewish man.

 

[Mr GLee]

Jesus is a Jewish man who will sit on the throne of David another Jewish man.

Throne of David same as throne of Israel the kingdom of our unseen Holy Father not the Son of man Jesus our brother in the lord . his body has returned to the dust . ?

1 Kings 9:5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.

God is not a Jewish man as King of kings .

 

[ChristB4us]

Honestly, there is no vanity in the Law (Judaism) God gave Moses for the children of Israel.

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:16–17.

it depends on how you apply the Law ( Judaism) for.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The Word of God is Holy, not vanity. Even if you tell me, "It's vanity because there was 'fault' with it," I disagree. Saul is saying 'righteousness is in the Law' it's just that it couldn't save. Not at the time it was written. But NOW with the Advent of the Holy Spirit who is the Law Personified and He in us, the Law is perfect in all its ways because although it kills non-anointed people as it did before the cross, today due to our being a spiritual man and unaffected by its sentence of death God uses it to instruct us in righteousness from within not from without once written in stone.

16 All scripture [Law, Psalms, Prophets] is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16–17.

Saul is not calling the Law of Moses "dung" but [other] things in his life. H e would know better, but maybe not. He, also, was searching the Scripture to understand Messiah's effect on the covenants and that took time and one can see his own learning becoming more fine-tuned as he grew in knowledge, and he did GROW in knowledge in time, not immediately as though it all came to him in one sitting. He said "I know in part" signifying his learning of the new thing God was doing in the earth was progressive, line upon line, precept upon precept.

You have to decide what changed between the Old Covenant that is vanishing away between the New Covenant as I see the difference as no longer the emphasis was on us to do the best we can but by trusting Jesus Christ for all things since He is the Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him. The New Covenant is about what God will do as He will put the laws in our hearts.... with Jesus Christ in us, we can follow Him.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Rom. 7:12.

That's not what he was saying.

In Romans 12th chapter, Paul is once again describing himself as he was as a Jew in recognizing the law being good but he could not keep it as his sinful flesh wars against his mind. Then he expressed from that sinful state of who will free him from this vile body of death; and of course that is Jesus Christ.

Yes, circumcision.

No. Paul is referring to his will power and his religious effort under Judaism as it is that confidence in the flesh we do not have in keeping the law because no matter how much the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak.

Again, there is righteousness in the Law. And since the Law is spiritual, its effect upon unatoned flesh is death. But we are not in the flesh if the Spirit of Christ dwells in us, right?

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Philippians 3:8.

That knowledge is in the Law. The problem in accessing it was as there was no Holy Spirit to allow understanding the spirit of the Law. But now there is. Spirit-filled pastors, teachers, bible study instructors throughout the land teach Jesus from the Law as we now see how everything in the Tabernacle pointed to Christ, the Bread or Life and Light of the world (of Jews.)

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

It is the mindset that one has to go from the religious to a rest in Jesus Christ for the hope of following Him & His commandments which in all respect, is higher than the works of the law.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[ChristB4us]

Honestly, there is no vanity in the Law (Judaism) God gave Moses for the children of Israel.

Can you explain why His apostles were deferring the Gentiles from keeping the law of Moses as if that was necessary to obtain salvation?

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

2 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia. 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. 30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

Salvation is separate from discipleship. Notice verse 29 of what they exhorted the Gentile believers into doing as His disciples in following Him which did not include the law of Moses as if to obtain salvation when they are already saved.

And yet in doing that exhortation, they shall fare well as His disciples in bearing fruit.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Throne of David same as throne of Israel the kingdom of our unseen Holy Father not the Son of man Jesus our brother in the lord . his body has returned to the dust . ?

His body has returned to the dust, eh?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. Lk 24:39.

It must've been another Christ named Jesus.

1 Kings 9:5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.

God is not a Jewish man as King of kings .

Let's see, Sherlock, David is Jewish and Jesus is his son. Yup. That means Jesus is Jewish.
You quote the Scripture proving this yet fail/refuse to believe the Scripture. I am reminded what King Agrippa said to Saul: "[Saul] ALMOST thou persuadest me to be a Christian!"

"ALMOST thou persuadest me to believe the Scripture!"

I'm going to begin calling you by a more proper name: Mr. ALMOST!

 

[jeremiah1five]

it depends on how you apply the Law ( Judaism) for.

Most likely I'd apply it as written.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Take note: We are no longer under the schoolmaster TO BRING US UNTO CHRIST. After that we are under the schoolmaster to instruct us in righteousness.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim. 3:16–17.

The "All Scripture Saul is referring to is the Law, Psalms, and Prophets.
And one more thing: type and shadow.
The Law was type and shadow to the Holy Spirit. HE is the Law God Promised to put in the inward parts of covenant House of Israel (Jer. 31:31-34.) The Law is still living and viable in the 'hearts'/life of the House of Israel whom God puts in their inward parts. After all, the kingdom of God is a Person and doesn't come with observation, but the kingdom of God (Christ) is within [you]!

You have to decide what changed between the Old Covenant that is vanishing away between the New Covenant as I see the difference as no longer the emphasis was on us to do the best we can but by trusting Jesus Christ for all things since He is the Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him. The New Covenant is about what God will do as He will put the laws in our hearts.... with Jesus Christ in us, we can follow Him.

I find it simply astounding how the Gentile Christians take Scripture addressed to covenant Israel and post it as though God was speaking to them and not covenant Israel to whom the oracles of God were given. Everything is always taken out of context when they quote Law, Psalms, and Prophets and do so using pronouns such as "we" and "us" and "our", etc.
Case in point. Christ was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Jesus sent His disciples to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Jesus said He was the Good Shepherd, which can only mean His sheep is Israel. Doesn't Jeremiah blast false prophets that lead Israel God's sheep astray?

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Saul's words have come under renewed scrutiny by me, especially after finding him change a prophetic word of Isaiah and changing it into another word thus altering its meaning and saying something completely different than the original thus adding to the bible. Either the KJV translators made the boo-boo or Saul did. Now, take the words above in Hebrews (the identity of the author of Hebrews is presently in dispute. Could be Apollos, or even Priscilla as some have put forward, still), what part of the Law is being done away if it is THAT Law God puts in the inward parts of the House of Israel that become born again.

Now, I have to ask, how can the Word that goeth forth from God be both eternal and obsolete? When I look at the word "better" in your verse Strong defines it as "stronger." So, now the Law takes on more precise meaning, especially since it is the Law God puts in the inward parts of covenant House of Israel. So, as opposed to the Law given by Moses in all its glory to the New Covenant one is stronger than the other in strength. Strength to do what? Well, it can't be stronger to save because neither can do that when it is God who saves. But God is bound by covenant to save His covenant House of Israel. Hard-core, uncircumcised Gentiles? Well, God saves them without a covenant, so covenant doesn't save. God does. "Salvation is of the LORD!" Jonah says in 2:9. It never says, "Salvation is of the Law! or "of the New Covenant!" But both covenants are that basis of the LORD'S salvation and present an outline of that salvation. The Law of Moses expresses salvation just as the New Covenant does, but the Law of Moses when given wasn't understood in that way even though Israel thought it did. But maybe they knew something it took Christians today some 3500 years to figure out, and it couldn't be figured out until the New Covenant exposed its weakness.

In Romans 12th chapter, Paul is once again describing himself as he was as a Jew in recognizing the law being good but he could not keep it as his sinful flesh wars against his mind. Then he expressed from that sinful state of who will free him from this vile body of death; and of course that is Jesus Christ.

Even in the Christian the carnal mind exists and 'wars against God and His Word.'

No. Paul is referring to his will power and his religious effort under Judaism as it is that confidence in the flesh we do not have in keeping the law because no matter how much the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak.

It is weak, not inert. And Gentiles were never under the Law so why all the effort in relating to the Law as though they were under the Law?

8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There you go again. Gentiles were never under the Law so why all the effort in relating to the Law as though they were under the Law and then struggle to get out of the Law's effects? Gentiles are without Law and will be judged without Law. Both are accountable to God, but Gentiles do things as though they were under the Law but precisely are not.

So, what was the Law in what "it could not do?"

It is the mindset that one has to go from the religious to a rest in Jesus Christ for the hope of following Him & His commandments which in all respect, is higher than the works of the law.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Is faith a work?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Can you explain why His apostles were deferring the Gentiles from keeping the law of Moses as if that was necessary to obtain salvation?

It was necessary to obtain salvation. And although the question was addressed at the Jerusalem Council by Jewish Christians they were deferred from "keeping the Law" because hard-core, uncircumcised were receiving the Promised Holy Spirit and they didn't have to be circumcised:

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 10:45.

1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. Acts 15:1–2.

But they didn't defer. They still placed a yoke upon the hard-core, uncircumcised believers in commanding them to obey the other certain aspects of the Law of Moses despite Peter's attempt at deferring them:

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Acts 15:10.

No deference, but inclusion:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. Acts 15:20.

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

2 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia. 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. 30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

Salvation is separate from discipleship.

But is discipleship separate from salvation?

19 Go ye therefore, and teach [Greek: disciple] all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching [Greek: to teach] them to observe [Greek: to guard] all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Mt 28:19–20.

The chicken or the egg. Is this teaching before salvation? Can the natural man receiveth the things of the Spirit of God before salvation? What, exactly, is Jesus instructing His apostles to teach?

Notice verse 29 of what they exhorted the Gentile believers into doing as His disciples in following Him which did not include the law of Moses as if to obtain salvation when they are already saved.

They still placed a burden upon these uncircumcised Gentiles in "abstaining from things strangled", etc.

And yet in doing that exhortation, they shall fare well as His disciples in bearing fruit.

"...and from fornication and from blood."

I call it being under the Law 2.0.

 

[Mr GLee]

His body has returned to the dust, eh?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. Lk 24:39.

It must've been another Christ named Jesu

Yes it has. The behold my hands and feet was before his body began turning to dust

Some did know Christ the teaching Holy Spirit that worked in the Son of man, Jesus . But one demonstration was all that was given of the powerful Father working in his powerless Son.


Just as with us today as us today ,Christ us the hope of the glory of God .God is not a Jewish man as King of kings .The father alone is king

It's not only Jesus the Son of man Christ is Spirt not flesh and blood.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

God is not a man ,

Let's see, Sherlock, David is Jewish and Jesus is his son. Yup. That means Jesus is Jewish.
You quote the Scripture proving this yet fail/refuse to believe the Scripture. I am reminded what King Agrippa said to Saul: "[Saul] ALMOST thou persuadest me to be a Christian!"

"ALMOST thou persuadest me to believe the Scripture!"

I'm going to begin calling you by a more proper name: Mr. ALMOST!

LOL Cute Sherlock a new name, the story of my life Mr Glee Almost .

Well, Whatson .. Really, Jesus is David Son and not the Son of God?

Did David get to have a relationship with the Son of man Jesus or are they set apart by thousands of years? I don't think freezing sperm was popular.

Only God can persuade person to be born from above. .Born again Christians as apostles preach.The Father does the teaching and confirming what he previously taught It's him who brings those things to our mind. God is not a Jewish man as KIng of kings . .

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Who is teaching you today? No man can serve two good teaching master as one Lord and God .

 

[jeremiah1five]

Yes it has. The behold my hands and feet was before his body began turning to dust

Post the Scripture to support your contention Jesus' body turning to dust.
Wasn't it said in Psalms:

10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;
Neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ps 16:10.

Post your Scripture.

Some did know Christ the teaching Holy Spirit that worked in the Son of man, Jesus . But one demonstration was all that was given of the powerful Father working in his powerless Son.
Just as with us today as us today ,Christ us the hope of the glory of God .God is not a Jewish man as King of kings .The father alone is king

Funny how you went from "Jesus is not a Jewish man" to "God is not a Jewish man."

It's not only Jesus the Son of man Christ is Spirt not flesh and blood.

No, Logos is not flesh and blood until the birth of the Messiah.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
God is not a man ,

God is not a man that He should lie...
But here's the prophecy of the God-man:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen. 3:15.

The learned of Israel knew their Redeemer would by God and man. Mainline Reformed theology understands Israel's Redeemer would be God and man.
Why don't you?

LOL Cute Sherlock a new name, the story of my life Mr Glee Almost .

Well, Whatson .. Really, Jesus is David Son and not the Son of God?

Jesus said He was the Son of God:

63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Mt 26:63–64.

and

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Jn 17:2–3.

But if you can't understand Genesis 3:15 I don't think you'd understand John 17:3.

Did David get to have a relationship with the Son of man Jesus or are they set apart by thousands of years? I don't think freezing sperm was popular.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Jn 8:56.

I would suppose if this was true of Abraham whose God is the God of the living that David also rejoiced to see [my] day and was glad. Maybe even talked to Him before He left heaven to become a man.

Only God can persuade person to be born from above. .

There is no persuasion. It either gets done or it doesn't.

Born again Christians as apostles preach.

Actually, apostles from the Scripture did both, a little heralding here, a little doctrine there and viola! A God-man gospel cream-sandwich. Taste that God is good!

The Father does the teaching and confirming what he previously taught It's him who brings those things to our mind. God is not a Jewish man as KIng of kings . .
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Who is teaching you today? No man can serve two good teaching master as one Lord and God .

The Holy Spirit. But there are a couple here who would argue the point. LOL.

 

[ChristB4us]

Most likely I'd apply it as written.

Where is your stand on the keeping of the sabbath day in respect to Judaism?

Matthew 12:1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Take note: We are no longer under the schoolmaster TO BRING US UNTO CHRIST. After that we are under the schoolmaster to instruct us in righteousness.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim. 3:16–17.

The "All Scripture Saul is referring to is the Law, Psalms, and Prophets.
And one more thing: type and shadow.
The Law was type and shadow to the Holy Spirit. HE is the Law God Promised to put in the inward parts of covenant House of Israel (Jer. 31:31-34.) The Law is still living and viable in the 'hearts'/life of the House of Israel whom God puts in their inward parts. After all, the kingdom of God is a Person and doesn't come with observation, but the kingdom of God (Christ) is within [you]!

But the Old Covenant vanishes for why the New Covenant had to come.

Hebrews 8:7-13 KJV

Now Christ is in us is why every believer is guiltless for profaning the sabbath.

I find it simply astounding how the Gentile Christians take Scripture addressed to covenant Israel and post it as though God was speaking to them and not covenant Israel to whom the oracles of God were given. Everything is always taken out of context when they quote Law, Psalms, and Prophets and do so using pronouns such as "we" and "us" and "our", etc.
Case in point. Christ was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Jesus sent His disciples to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Jesus said He was the Good Shepherd, which can only mean His sheep is Israel. Doesn't Jeremiah blast false prophets that lead Israel God's sheep astray?

From the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus was testifying to fulfilling the law and raising it higher in dealing with the inside spirit of the sinner; hence the Jews at the time He presented this sermon, but it applies also to Gentile believers for abiding in Him as His disciples to be sons of the highest to be prefect as the Father is perfect. He even denounce the practice of performing their oaths to the Lord and even swearing by it because nobody can do God's work in us now in Matthew 5:33-37 for why it is written that the just shall live by faith in Jesus Christ.

Saul's words have come under renewed scrutiny by me, especially after finding him change a prophetic word of Isaiah and changing it into another word thus altering its meaning and saying something completely different than the original thus adding to the bible. Either the KJV translators made the boo-boo or Saul did. Now, take the words above in Hebrews (the identity of the author of Hebrews is presently in dispute. Could be Apollos, or even Priscilla as some have put forward, still), what part of the Law is being done away if it is THAT Law God puts in the inward parts of the House of Israel that become born again.

For your response towards Hebrews 8:7-13; Peter confirms the words of Paul as equal as scripture.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

You could argue for things lost in translation to English, but I do not see how when the intent of the message should be clear in context.

You should consider if there isn't anything you are missing that Jesus wants you to see that would reprove the teaching you are under.

Now, I have to ask, how can the Word that goeth forth from God be both eternal and obsolete? When I look at the word "better" in your verse Strong defines it as "stronger." So, now the Law takes on more precise meaning, especially since it is the Law God puts in the inward parts of covenant House of Israel. So, as opposed to the Law given by Moses in all its glory to the New Covenant one is stronger than the other in strength. Strength to do what? Well, it can't be stronger to save because neither can do that when it is God who saves. But God is bound by covenant to save His covenant House of Israel. Hard-core, uncircumcised Gentiles? Well, God saves them without a covenant, so covenant doesn't save. God does. "Salvation is of the LORD!" Jonah says in 2:9. It never says, "Salvation is of the Law! or "of the New Covenant!" But both covenants are that basis of the LORD'S salvation and present an outline of that salvation. The Law of Moses expresses salvation just as the New Covenant does, but the Law of Moses when given wasn't understood in that way even though Israel thought it did. But maybe they knew something it took Christians today some 3500 years to figure out, and it couldn't be figured out until the New Covenant exposed its weakness.

Even in the Christian the carnal mind exists and 'wars against God and His Word.'

Well there is a war on the keeping of the sabbath day as opposed to the new reality in Christ Jesus and the latter is about keeping the faith which is the good fight; not the keeping of the law.

There you go again. Gentiles were never under the Law so why all the effort in relating to the Law as though they were under the Law and then struggle to get out of the Law's effects? Gentiles are without Law and will be judged without Law. Both are accountable to God, but Gentiles do things as though they were under the Law but precisely are not.

So, what was the Law in what "it could not do?"

Is faith a work?

There is only one gospel as it has to be the same to the Jews & the Gentiles and even His disciples spoke of the law of Moses as something they could not bear as Jews and so why place it on Gentile believers?

Acts 15:5-11 KJV

 

[ChristB4us]

It was necessary to obtain salvation. And although the question was addressed at the Jerusalem Council by Jewish Christians they were deferred from "keeping the Law" because hard-core, uncircumcised were receiving the Promised Holy Spirit and they didn't have to be circumcised:

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 10:45.

1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. Acts 15:1–2.

But they didn't defer. They still placed a yoke upon the hard-core, uncircumcised believers in commanding them to obey the other certain aspects of the Law of Moses despite Peter's attempt at deferring them:

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Acts 15:10.

No deference, but inclusion:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. Acts 15:20.

You quoted scripture as a general reference of what they were talking about, but there was more to it than that as mentioned later below.

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

But is discipleship separate from salvation?

19 Go ye therefore, and teach [Greek: disciple] all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching [Greek: to teach] them to observe [Greek: to guard] all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Mt 28:19–20.

The chicken or the egg. Is this teaching before salvation? Can the natural man receiveth the things of the Spirit of God before salvation? What, exactly, is Jesus instructing His apostles to teach?

They still placed a burden upon these uncircumcised Gentiles in "abstaining from things strangled", etc.

"...and from fornication and from blood."

I call it being under the Law 2.0.

Here are the consequence for not following Jesus as His disciples, yea, even the consequence of what happens to a former believer that denies Him and yet He still abides in them even though denied by Him and left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event, BUT we are still to call them to depart from iniquity so they can be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So the vessels unto dishonor are the ones that did not depart from iniquity & like the former believers when left behind, He still abides.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

That is how the "least" in the kingdom of heaven are still in His kingdom of Heaven for breaking even the least of His commandments and teaches others so because they got left behind whereby He still abides in them for why He will finish His work in them to His glory as vessels unto dishonor BUT still in His House.

So discipleship IS separate from salvation, otherwise running that race as a disciple to obtain salvation would become a work of iniquity that denies Him as Saviour.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

One does not need to verbally deny Him as a former believer would, when by being a worker of iniquity is how He will deny them, unless they repent before He comes as the Bridegroom at he pre great tribulation rapture event to attend the marriage supper in His honor in Heaven.

@grace2

 

[jeremiah1five]

Where is your stand on the keeping of the sabbath day in respect to Judaism?

These comments are getting longer. One of us is going to get "cut off." LOL.
It's their covenant. I presume they still work six days and rest the seventh.

Matthew 12:1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
But the Old Covenant vanishes for why the New Covenant had to come.

The issue Jesus had with the religious leaders (among other things) was that without the Holy Spirit they could only understand the letter of the Law and Jesus taught the spirit of the Law.

Hebrews 8:7-13 KJV
Now Christ is in us is why every believer is guiltless for profaning the sabbath.
From the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus was testifying to fulfilling the law and raising it higher in dealing with the inside spirit of the sinner;

Unatoned, sinners have no human spirit let alone Holy Spirit.
Did Jesus really raise it higher? I don't think so for what I said above.

hence the Jews at the time He presented this sermon, but it applies also to Gentile believers for abiding in Him as His disciples to be sons of the highest to be prefect as the Father is perfect. He even denounce the practice of performing their oaths to the Lord and even swearing by it because nobody can do God's work in us now in Matthew 5:33-37 for why it is written that the just shall live by faith in Jesus Christ.

First, Gentiles were never under the Law. If they were they would be circumcised, have to swear an oath, offer sacrifices, and only gather in the Court of the Gentiles at their Temple, in effect, be called Gentile proselytes. Like the eunuch.

For your response towards Hebrews 8:7-13; Peter confirms the words of Paul as equal as scripture.
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

My writing is called 'scripture.' Yours, too. But it doesn't say Peter was equating Saul's letters as Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, and Prophets. Their canon was closed at the time. He could have been speaking of Saul's other letters. Many Judaizers most likely took issue with Saul's letters as he wrote them and this can be what my brother, Pete, was talking about.

You could argue for things lost in translation to English, but I do not see how when the intent of the message should be clear in context.
You should consider if there isn't anything you are missing that Jesus wants you to see that would reprove the teaching you are under.

The teaching I am under is the anointing of the Holy Spirit. He does that to His chosen vessels, still, right?

Well there is a war on the keeping of the sabbath day as opposed to the new reality in Christ Jesus and the latter is about keeping the faith which is the good fight; not the keeping of the law.

Who are the combatants?

There is only one gospel as it has to be the same to the Jews & the Gentiles and even His disciples spoke of the law of Moses as something they could not bear as Jews and so why place it on Gentile believers?
Acts 15:5-11 KJV

There is only one 'good news' gospel and that is the one preached to the Jews, that this Jesus was truly their long-awaited Messiah, the same 'good news' Jesus sent His disciples with in Matthew 10 and Acts 1, about how God has kept His promise to Israel and sent their Redeemer, Deliverer, and Savior, and King.
Then there are other 'good news' such as the 'good news' barren Hannah would have a child and that young Mary would bear a peculiar child. Even the 'good news' Passover night that the children of Israel will be departing Egypt the next day. I could go on with 'good news' in Scripture. There are many 'good news' to speak of.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You quoted scripture as a general reference of what they were talking about, but there was more to it than that as mentioned later below.

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Yes, but in the end, they did command these hard-core, uncircumcised Gentile believers to keep the Law where idols and fornication and blood was concerned. Law-keeping 2.0.

Here are the consequence for not following Jesus as His disciples, yea, even the consequence of what happens to a former believer that denies Him and yet He still abides in them even though denied by Him and left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event, BUT we are still to call them to depart from iniquity so they can be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House.

There is no rapture. The Gentile Church will go through the Time of Jacob's Trouble along with Israel. Hey! Gentile Christians was to ingratiate themselves into the Jewish Covenants and now they want to escape the Jewish Tribulation? Not gunna happen.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So the vessels unto dishonor are the ones that did not depart from iniquity & like the former believers when left behind, He still abides.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

That is how the "least" in the kingdom of heaven are still in His kingdom of Heaven for breaking even the least of His commandments and teaches others so because they got left behind whereby He still abides in them for why He will finish His work in them to His glory as vessels unto dishonor BUT still in His House.

So discipleship IS separate from salvation, otherwise running that race as a disciple to obtain salvation would become a work of iniquity that denies Him as Saviour.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

One does not need to verbally deny Him as a former believer would, when by being a worker of iniquity is how He will deny them, unless they repent before He comes as the Bridegroom at he pre great tribulation rapture event to attend the marriage supper in His honor in Heaven.

@grace2

God is betrothed to Israel.
The original and true Church are a continuation of the Great Congregation in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle, and now are the Church Christ died for and the Church He said He was going to build. Think about it: 3000 Jews were born-again on the first day of a weeks-long Jewish Feast. If we take 3000 and multiply it the other six days, we end up with 21,000 Jews being born again at the end of the week. That's called a Mega-church. How many does Joel Osteen have in his erroneous fellowship of positive thinkers? How many did pastor Cho of South Korea have?

Here, let's do some math:
21,000 Jews born again total at the Jewish Feast of Harvest and multiply that by four weeks in a month, 12 months in a year, ten years in a decade, and about four decades until the Jewish Temple was destroyed thus ending the "ism" of Judaism. How many people is that after about four decades?

That comes to 14,800,000 Jews became born again in the span of four decades if we were to take 3000 Jews becoming born-again in one day as happened on day one of the Feast of Harvest (Pentecost.)
Now THAT's a Church!

 

[Mr GLee]

Post the Scripture to support your contention Jesus' body turning to dust.
Wasn't it said in Psalms:

10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;
Neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ps 16:10.

Soul has nothing to do with dying flesh his sufferings the pangs of hell cries out to the father it is found in Matthew . Not my will but your will Father the one and onlypowerful God The flesh profits for zero

Funny how you went from "Jesus is not a Jewish man" to "God is not a Jewish man."

Now you are making things up, I never said Jesus the Son of man is not a Jewish man .

No, Logos is not flesh and blood until the birth of the Messiah.

Logos is the works of the Holy Spirit that works in dying mankind.

God is not a Jewish man or any man . The Spirit gives new spirit life. Dying flesh profits for Zero Nothing.

God is not a man that He should lie...
But here's the prophecy of the God-man:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen. 3:15.

The learned of Israel knew their Redeemer would by God and man. Mainline Reformed theology understands Israel's Redeemer would be God and man.
Why don't you?

Why would I promote the abomination of desolation dying mankind standing in the place of our invisible God

God is not a man .The prophecy you offered has nothing to do with the doctrine that God is not a man .

The Holy Spirit. But there are a couple here who would argue the point. LOL

What about the Holy Spirit is it a Jewish man ?

 

[ChristB4us]

These comments are getting longer. One of us is going to get "cut off." LOL.
It's their covenant. I presume they still work six days and rest the seventh.

Not according to Jesus Christ under the New Covenant as He is Lord of the Sabbath and not the sabbath lord over Him for why His disciples were blameless for profaning the sabbath in Matthew 12:1-8 KJV <--- You should have read that before replying.

The issue Jesus had with the religious leaders (among other things) was that without the Holy Spirit they could only understand the letter of the Law and Jesus taught the spirit of the Law.

Saints had the Holy Spirit albeit temporarily as it was that the Holy Spirit can leave them, unlike the saints under the New Covenant.

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Unatoned, sinners have no human spirit let alone Holy Spirit.

Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
1 Chronicles 5:26And the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul king of Assyria, and the spirit of Tilgathpilneser king of Assyria, and he carried them away, even the Reubenites, and the Gadites, and the half tribe of Manasseh, and brought them unto Halah, and Habor, and Hara, and to the river Gozan, unto this day.

God's words acknowledges these sinful kings in His words to stir them up.

Did Jesus really raise it higher? I don't think so for what I said above.

If you had heed His words in the Sermon on the Mount, you should know that.

Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

That is how much higher the bar has been raised by Jesus as an example. Note the consequence in verse 29 for His followers not doing that.

This warning was given to those saved believers that would follow Him as His disciples ( both Gentiles & the Jews ) as that repercussions for not looking to Him for help to cast down wicked thoughts & imaginations to think on good thing is "Gehenna" or "geena" which is the Greek word that hell was translated from in English. This is not the after life hell but the refuse place as a dumping ground outside of Jerusalem. The Lord also changed/added to the meaning of that word as also meaning the valley of slaughter.

Jeremiah 19:6 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter. 7 And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.

So at the pre great tribulation rapture event, as the Bridegroom, He will receive the abiding bride of Christ to that City of God above to participate in the Marriage Supper. Those "disqualified" and thus reprobate, are left behind to die in what is coming on that earth, that fiery calamity on the third of the earth ( Revelation 8:7 ) and the coming great tribulation with the beast waging war on the left behind saints & new believers as of result of the everlasting gospel spread by that 1st angel after the rapture event.

So kind of the same as a refuse dump outside of that New Jerusalem and where they are left at in Babylon USA is the valley of slaughter as saints elsewhere will be slaughter by the beast as well. Do note Revelation 18th chapter of the saints dead in her for why scripture still identifies them as still saints though left behind and thus still saved? Thus the power of God in salvation for all who believe in Jesus Christ.

First, Gentiles were never under the Law. If they were they would be circumcised, have to swear an oath, offer sacrifices, and only gather in the Court of the Gentiles at their Temple, in effect, be called Gentile proselytes. Like the eunuch.

Seems like Paul was saying the Gentiles knew right from wrong anyway, even in regards to the inner parts of the hearts.

Romans 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Care to explain this message from Paul as led by the Holy Spirit to share?

My writing is called 'scripture.' Yours, too. But it doesn't say Peter was equating Saul's letters as Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, and Prophets. Their canon was closed at the time. He could have been speaking of Saul's other letters. Many Judaizers most likely took issue with Saul's letters as he wrote them and this can be what my brother, Pete, was talking about.

That is an assumption that can be seen as in order to favor your teaching as not contrary to the accepted scripture. It is a convenience that you should avoid and take the matter to Jesus in prayer since your Op is about God creating man as sinful as if no fall was necessary.

The teaching I am under is the anointing of the Holy Spirit. He does that to His chosen vessels, still, right?

Scripture cannot go against scripture. That is why these "so called" lost books of the Bible are not accepted as scripture for they have writings going against the accepted scripture. And so you should ask the Lord for wisdom & discernment in regards to your teachings.

Who are the combatants?

Those who look to the keeping of the law to make themselves good and to do good as opposed to looking to Jesus to that.

There is only one 'good news' gospel and that is the one preached to the Jews, that this Jesus was truly their long-awaited Messiah, the same 'good news' Jesus sent His disciples with in Matthew 10 and Acts 1, about how God has kept His promise to Israel and sent their Redeemer, Deliverer, and Savior, and King.
Then there are other 'good news' such as the 'good news' barren Hannah would have a child and that young Mary would bear a peculiar child. Even the 'good news' Passover night that the children of Israel will be departing Egypt the next day. I could go on with 'good news' in Scripture. There are many 'good news' to speak of.

If you see the New Covenant as only pertaining to the Jewish believers in Jesus Christ originally, you have certainly overlooked something.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Peter said that by the Holy Spirit. And to grasp the full implication of it, God had to send a vision for Peter to be convinced to go to the Gentiles as he was under that mandate given by Jesus to only go to the House of Israel.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So as led by the Holy Spirit, Peter must not have grasped what the Spirit had said to the Jews for then, why God had to send the vision?

 

[ChristB4us]

Yes, but in the end, they did command these hard-core, uncircumcised Gentile believers to keep the Law where idols and fornication and blood was concerned. Law-keeping 2.0.

The difference between law keeping and looking to Jesus Christ to do His work in them is key as they did not command them to do this.

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

They had considered it as laying that burden on them....

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

When they rest in Jesus Christ to do this through the Holy Spirit in them, then there is no burden, when rolling it away to Jesus to do it.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

There is no rapture. The Gentile Church will go through the Time of Jacob's Trouble along with Israel.

The rapture is when God will judge His House first as the Bridegroom and so it is going to happen. 1 Peter 4:17

Hey! Gentile Christians was to ingratiate themselves into the Jewish Covenants and now they want to escape the Jewish Tribulation? Not gunna happen.

Not every saved believer will be found ready for why they, and Jewish believers, will be left behind. When they look to Jesus Christ to help them lay aside every weight & sin daily & not be ensnared by the cares of this life, they can pray for that escape that fire coming on the earth;

Luke 21:33-36;12:40-49;2 Peter 3:3-15 KJV <---- click on link to read that if you want to know where I got that from and as a reminder, at the time Jesus said that in Luke's references, it was to the Jews originally but that was for all saved believers that seek to be His disciples which means that includes the Gentile believers as well.

God is betrothed to Israel.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Considering how one becomes a son of God now by believing in Him, then all saved believers are Israel, but not every saved believer will be ready for why Jesus is warning His disciples to be ready or else.

The original and true Church are a continuation of the Great Congregation in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle, and now are the Church Christ died for and the Church He said He was going to build. Think about it: 3000 Jews were born-again on the first day of a weeks-long Jewish Feast. If we take 3000 and multiply it the other six days, we end up with 21,000 Jews being born again at the end of the week. That's called a Mega-church. How many does Joel Osteen have in his erroneous fellowship of positive thinkers? How many did pastor Cho of South Korea have?

Many false prophets will arise but their false teachings has a way of working its way into the believers lives through other less obvious sources.

Here, let's do some math:
21,000 Jews born again total at the Jewish Feast of Harvest and multiply that by four weeks in a month, 12 months in a year, ten years in a decade, and about four decades until the Jewish Temple was destroyed thus ending the "ism" of Judaism. How many people is that after about four decades?

There will be a Third Temple after the rapture event. Talks for it has begun. They even have the red heifers now and all the stuff for the inside and outside of that Temple. All they need now is the permission.

Prophesy dictate that the outer courts will go to the Gentiles and the latest information is they could rebuild that Temple without removing the Dome of the Rock. All they need now is that peace treaty that will give them that permission. Once USA is gone after the rapture event is why Israel's enemies will give them permission to build that third Temple to assure them that no one is going to attack them any more nor remove Israel off of the map.

That comes to 14,800,000 Jews became born again in the span of four decades if we were to take 3000 Jews becoming born-again in one day as happened on day one of the Feast of Harvest (Pentecost.)
Now THAT's a Church!

The 144,000 witnesses of the 12,000 from each 12 tribes of Israel will be saved after the rapture event, plus the two witnesses ( I suspect will be Enoch & Elijah ) that will show up in Jerusalem at the beginning of the great tribulation until half way through it for when they die, and get resurrected and called to come up hither before the bowls are poured out on all those with the mark of the beast.

So trust Jesus Christ today as your Saviour that you are saved for believing in Him & that God has raised Him from the dead and then trust Jesus Christ as your personal Good Shepherd & Friend to help you to follow Him because you can do nothing without Him and ask him for help to not be overcharged by the cares of this life that you are free from all commitments & at liberty to escape for when He comes.

 

[Kermos]

Praise God!

Greetings in Christ, @jeremiah1five,

I am so very blessed by God to read the opening post of this thread!!!

Please take a look at this opening post

https://christianforums.net/threads...e-will-from-the-beginning-of-creation.100647/

because I am so very excited at the parallel! Do you agree?

Now, as further support of the Truth (John 14:6):

The Timeline Of Adam Eating The Fruit - Marking Chronological Milestones​

I'm going to do an exercise in chronological time dilation with "she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate" (Genesis 3:6), and I'm going to use present tense for illustrative purposes. The actions of Adam and Eve may not be the precisely accurate, but it serves for illustrative purposes.

TIME MARK ALEPH: Eve takes of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK BEYT: Eve swings her arm toward her mouth as her mouth is opening to take a eat.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK GIMAL: Eve bites and eats the fruit.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK DALET: Eve extends her hand containing the fruit toward Adam's hand.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK HEY: Adam receives the fruit in his hand, and Eve withdraws her hand.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK VAV: Adam swings his hand with the fruit in it 25% of the way to his mouth.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK ZAYIN: Adam continues swinging his hand with the fruit in it, and now he has it 50% of the way to his mouth, and Adam is fully aware of God's command not to eat of the fruit (Genesis 2:16-17).

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK CHET: Adam gets the forbidden fruit to 75% of the way to his mouth, and he starts opening his mouth in preparation to eat the forbidden fruit.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK TET: Adam now has the forbidden fruit threee millimeters from his mouth, but the fruit has not touched his lips, teeth, nor tongue.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK YUD: Adam starts contracting his muscles to close his mouth around the forbidden fruit in order to eat the fruit, but his mouth is still not in contact with the fruit.

• The "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23).

TIME MARK KAPH: Adam's mouth comes in contact with the fruit and he bites and he eats the forbidden fruit in disobedience to God's command (Genesis 2:16-17).

• The "Adam is evil" sudden contrajuxtaposition of the "Adam is good" precept of man (Matthew 15:9).
• The "Adam is evil" precept of God (Genesis 2:23), and Adam becomes aware that he is evil, that is, aware of his flesh (Genesis 3:7).

From TIME MARK VAV up to and including TIME MARK YUD, the precept of man defines Adam as good because he had not actually eaten the forbidden fruit, yet the intent to eat of the fruit was in his heart.

Of benefit, the Word of God says wrong desire of the heart is sufficient for sin to occur (Matthew 5:28).

This chronological time dilation illustration represents a valuable spiritual truth. Adam was not good before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because if Adam had been good then Adam would have obeyed God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

A couple of intructional points from the creation account are:

• left to his own devices, man defies God
• man fell out of ignorance about being evil in his flesh