GOD CREATED MAN (ADAM) SINFUL

[Bob Carabbio]

Do you ever get tired of saying the same things over and over, always hearing and never coming to the knowledge of the truth?

You've provided No explanation of how Jesus Could be tempted in every respect AS WE ARE, when how we are tempted is detailed in James 1, but you contend that temptation itself IS SIN, and Jesus was sinless.

You've given me no reason to alter what I've written.

 

[TMSO]

Was Adam created holy or sinless?
Did Adam possess ALL the Deific Attributes and Nature of God? Because if he didn't and God is the standard by which everything and everyone is judged against then Adam would be fallen short of God's perfect glory and the word for that is "sin."
Was Adam created holy or sinless?

Adam was "innocent". He had no sin nature. He was sinless in inncoence until he wasn't. He was created in God's image, so... if He was not created holy or sinless, again, the idea of innocent, then what does that say of the image of God?

 

[TMSO]

Not even close!!! We've ALL SINNED, but not because Adam did anything.

For by ONE MAN (original) sin entered the world, and by sin, death. Right there. An original sinner. If this one man had never done anything, there would be no sin. And sin passed on to all humanity from this one man. That is what Paul tells us. There is original sin, but there is no original GUILT. We are not guilty for what Adam did. We get a fallen, sin nature from Adam. We are born into slavery to sin.

Pure GARBAGE. I have a HUMAN NATURE, just like Adam was created with, Jesus had, and we share. Adam followed the pattern for temptation in James one, just like we did. Nothing "Pelagian" about any of that.

You have the image of God, that was corrupted by Adam. JEsus is not the same. And now that you are trying to say Jesus wasn't God, we have some real problems. Jesus had a human and divine nature. What didn't Jesus have? A sin nature. Why not? He didn't have an earthly father. No connection to Adam, only to Eve, just as God pronounced to Eve in the garden. Jesus isn't a son of Adam, He is the Son of God. As such, He became a second Adam.

Sorry, but YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND that there IS NO "Original sin" in terms of any change in your, or my nature. You're teaching ERROR, and the FACT IS that you have provided any SIN that's in your life, just like I have. We've ALL SINNED, and the solution is the SIN OFFERING made by Jesus on the Cross that CLEANSES US from all sin.

Jesus never sinned. The fact that your belief cannot answer why, is disturbing. Scripture is clear, ALL HAVE SINNED. There was something different about Jesus. And it is that Jesus was/is the Logos become flesh.

 

[ChristB4us]

None of that matters nor has any bearing on the question. The truth is there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him and He gives His glory to NO ONE. If and when you come to believe this THEN the answer becomes easy. Do you believe the words of Isaiah who said these three things?

God can't reduplicate, copy, give, share His glory (of which Sinlessness, Holiness, Righteousness, etc., are His glory) to anyone. There is only ONE God. It's not God's Law by which we will be judged against. It is Him. He is the standard by which everything and everyone is judged against. There are only two people that can stad before a Holy and Sinless God and that is the Holy Son and Holy Spirit. Everything and everyone else fall short of His glory.
If sinlessness is the Nature and glory of God and if it were possible He gave, shared, copied, reduplicated this glory in Adam then by necessity Adam would have to possess ALL the Deific Attributes of God or he would fall short of God's perfect standard of glory: Himself.

I agree that is what the prophet Isaiah testified of but Isaiah also prophesied that the God that has been speaking to us since Adam and Abraham, is the same God that shall come as our Redeemer as sent by the Lord God ( The Father ) and His Spirit.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

This prophesy was fulfilled at the water baptism of Jesus Christ's.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

For God to command men to have two or three witnesses to establish a testimony and that no single witness can condemn a man to death, per Deuteronomy 17:6 & 19:15, then how can that One God judge or testify from Himself without being a hypocrite? By how there are three witnesses within the One God.

There is no idolatry being committed here when man was created after His likeness and His image. Indeed, the request was made in the plural sense for making man in our image and after our likeness and that was the Word of God asking the father for that permission and so by the Father's will & the Spirit's compliance, the Son made man in His image and His likeness as that One God.

As you say that God will not share His glory with another and that there is none beside Him and yet Jesus testified to that at His trail for why He was crucified for blasphemy.

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

Here is another prophesy from Isaiah.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob that mean had seen in the O.T. and even Moses had seen him and written of Him.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life....

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Jesus said plenty of times that He is God.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

The question is, do you continue to gloss over these scripture to keep with what you have been taught or do you desire truth in Jesus Christ?

 

[jeremiah1five]

That's not what I said at all.

That's exactly what you mean.
I know what you're saying and it makes no sense so let me ask you this and let's see if you can or want to answer it.
Yea or nay, does sin come from sinner?

Before you sin, you're SINLESS. i.e. ADAM as he was created

If God is the standard by which everything and everyone is judged against just the fact that Adam was created proves he is fallen short of the glory of God. Uncreated God judges the created man and finds him fallen short of the Eternal God.
That's the bottom line. It doesn't matter anymore when people say he was "sinless" or "holy" of "innocent" or "righteous. He is not eternal like God and in this he falls short of the Eternal God.
Case closed.

AFTER you sin, then you're NOT sinless any longer. i.e. Adam AFTER He sinned.
That's not nuclear physics, y'all.

God is sinless. How long before God sin since you believe sin comes from sinless?
And it's not the act of sin that makes us sinners. We sin because we are sinners, we are not sinners because we sin. The last Adam PROVED this. He is sinless, He is Holy, He is Righteous and He did not sin. Make the comparison. Make the distinction.
By virtue of man being created proves man falls short of the Eternal glory of God.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Adam was "innocent". He had no sin nature. He was sinless in inncoence until he wasn't. He was created in God's image, so... if He was not created holy or sinless, again, the idea of innocent, then what does that say of the image of God?

As I told Bob, God is the standard by which everything and everyone is judged against.
Just by virtue of Adam's creation makes him fallen short of the Eternal Glory of God.
Only an Eternal Son and Eternal Spirit can stand before an Eternal Father blameless. Adam falls short. The word in Scripture is "sin." This is why he sinned. He was a sinner before any act of sin. Sin comes from sinner. He might have been 'innocent' before the Law/Command came of "thou shalt not" for as Saul says, "when the commandment came sin revived and I died, it slew me."

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Rom. 7:7–13.

You should spend some time with this.

Let's take verse 7 as if Adam was saying it:

Adam: "What shall say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known disobedience, except the law had said, Thou shalt not eat [of it.]

God created man (Adam) sinful (fallen short of the Eternal glory of God.)

 

[jeremiah1five]

I agree that is what the prophet Isaiah testified of but Isaiah also prophesied that the God that has been speaking to us since Adam and Abraham, is the same God that shall come as our Redeemer as sent by the Lord God ( The Father ) and His Spirit.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

This prophesy was fulfilled at the water baptism of Jesus Christ's.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

For God to command men to have two or three witnesses to establish a testimony and that no single witness can condemn a man to death, per Deuteronomy 17:6 & 19:15, then how can that One God judge or testify from Himself without being a hypocrite? By how there are three witnesses within the One God.

There is no idolatry being committed here when man was created after His likeness and His image. Indeed, the request was made in the plural sense for making man in our image and after our likeness and that was the Word of God asking the father for that permission and so by the Father's will & the Spirit's compliance, the Son made man in His image and His likeness as that One God.

As you say that God will not share His glory with another and that there is none beside Him and yet Jesus testified to that at His trail for why He was crucified for blasphemy.

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

Here is another prophesy from Isaiah.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob that mean had seen in the O.T. and even Moses had seen him and written of Him.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life....

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Jesus said plenty of times that He is God.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

The question is, do you continue to gloss over these scripture to keep with what you have been taught or do you desire truth in Jesus Christ?

God is the standard by which everything and everyone is judged against. Just by virtue of man being created as opposed to an Eternal God PROVES man was created fallen short of the Eternal glory of God.
Case closed. Man (Adam) was created sinful and that's why he sinned. Sin comes from sinner as wickedness comes from the wicked. Adam possessed NONE of the Deific Attributes or Nature of God. This alone also proves He was created fallen short of God's glorious Nature. They only two Persons that can stand before the Holy Father blameless is the Holy Son and Holy Spirit. Everything in creation - man included - falls short of His glory. The word for that is "sin."
But man-centered people, humanists, communists, etc., have a extremely difficult time with this truth.
By virtue of man merely being created and not eternal like God proves man was created fallen short of the glory of God.

 

[ChristB4us]

God is the standard by which everything and everyone is judged against. Just by virtue of man being created as opposed to an Eternal God PROVES man was created fallen short of the Eternal glory of God.
Case closed. Man (Adam) was created sinful and that's why he sinned.

Then what was his sin before the fall?

That is what and how the case is closed because if man was created sinful to begin with, then there would be no need to testify of the fall of man later on.

There is a difference between a celestial and a terrestrial, but the terrestrial was created good as in without sin until the fall.

Indeed, Satan & his angels were perfect and good until they were not.

Now if you say God created them that way, without them earning that judgment from God by their deeds, then anything God creates can never be good. Anything that God redeems can never be good enough either since we shall be made higher than the angels and yet if the angels has sinned, why can't that perfect future self?

And yet hell and death shall be cast into the lake of fire at the Great White Throne Judgment signifying no sin will ever separate us from God ever again.

Picture this; if Adam and Eve had never sinned, mankind lives in a perfect world, wondering what is outside of God and the goodness of God? If Adam & eve had not sinned, one of the sons and daughters would have, wondering what would happen if they did eat from that tree of the knowledge of good & evil? But Adam & Eve did and all mankind is finding out what happens when you do not believe God at His word in going against His will as we now know the knowledge of good & evil and that is there is nothing good outside of God and His word.

And yet salvation comes in the same simple manner as the fall did by unbelief in God's word and that is by believing God's word that all those that come to & believe in Jesus Christ shall be saved.

That is why doing works or keeping the law cannot save us because how can the sinner make himself perfect?

So what is impossible for men, is possible for God just by believing in Jesus Christ for salvation & trusting Him to help us to follow Him.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

That's exactly what you mean.
I know what you're saying and it makes no sense so let me ask you this and let's see if you can or want to answer it.
Yea or nay, does sin come from sinner?

Yes.

If God is the standard by which everything and everyone is judged against just the fact that Adam was created proves he is fallen short of the glory of God. Uncreated God judges the created man and finds him fallen short of the Eternal God.
That's the bottom line. It doesn't matter anymore when people say he was "sinless" or "holy" of "innocent" or "righteous. He is not eternal like God and in this he falls short of the Eternal God.

A BUNCH of words meaning nothing. Of course Adam wasn't at the same level as God. That's always been a given. however that doesn't mean Adam "Falls short" in terms of being hell-bound. Adam fell short because HE SINNED, for exactly the same reasons YOU, and I do.

God is sinless. How long before God sin since you believe sin comes from sinless?

This is a totally ridiculous statement!!! Adam was sinless - until he SINNED. there's nothing hard about that fact.

The last Adam PROVED this. He is sinless, He is Holy, He is Righteous and He did not sin.

Agreed. Jesus did not sin, and consequently Jesus never became a "Sinner" like Adam did. Nothing hard about that either.

Make the comparison. Make the distinction.
By virtue of man being created proves man falls short of the Eternal glory of God.

Totally false dichotomy.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Yes.

You agree sin comes from sinner, but you see Adam sinless, that is, possessing a glory of God which is sinlessness. If Adam possessed sinlessness - an Attribute of God - and Isaiah says "God gives His glory (sinlessness) to NO ONE it doesn't matter to you, does it. The blazes to Scripture [I'm] going to believe whatever the his-ell I want! Another thing is that if God violated His Word and Nature and gave sinlessness to Adam as you say, then Adam by necessity MUST possess ALL the Deific Attributes of God including omniscience, omnipresent, eternalness, etc., or again, he would fall short of God's COMPLETE glory. But that means nothing to you.

A BUNCH of words meaning nothing. Of course Adam wasn't at the same level as God. That's always been a given. however that doesn't mean Adam "Falls short" in terms of being hell-bound. Adam fell short because HE SINNED, for exactly the same reasons YOU, and I do.

I never said hell bound. There is along with man's creation the Plan of God's redemption. For many reasons Adam and the woman were never under threat of hell or eternal separation from God. From Adam to the last human born God is actively involved in the affairs of mankind. Prophecy alone declares that. You're a stubborn man and choose your word of belief over God's Word.
Well, have at it then.

This is a totally ridiculous statement!!! Adam was sinless - until he SINNED. there's nothing hard about that fact.

Yes, according to you. And in this God violates His Word and Nature by reduplicating, copying, sharing, giving His Sinless glory to dirt.
All that doesn't matter though. Just by virtue of man's creation held up against the Eternal God in this Adam falls short. The word for that is sin. Adam sinned because he was a sinner. The last Adam PROVES this.

Agreed. Jesus did not sin, and consequently Jesus never became a "Sinner" like Adam did. Nothing hard about that either.

Totally false dichotomy.

Yeah, you keep believing that. I seek brethren who honor and obey the Word of God and when His Word contradicts ones' belief they come under the influence of the Spirit of Truth and repent (change their mind.) But God has not granted to you repentance. Well, that's your walk and your beliefs dictate your relationship with God. And from this discussion...

 

[jeremiah1five]

Then what was his sin before the fall?

Saul said: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20.

And that's what God was doing with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. He was giving Adam (and the woman) the KNOWLEDGE of their sinfulness. It mattered not in the long run whether they disobeyed because God didn't create man without having a plan in place. And it all started in 'heaven' with the heavenly Tabernacle. Moses was instructed to build an earthly Tabernacle modeled after that one in 'heaven.' and for good reason, but I won't get into it here and sidetrack this discussion on this thread. WHY was a lamb slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world? In my understanding it was so that a Righteous God could create an unrighteous being: Man. And that is the gist of this thread and why the only way God could create a man was only sinful, for there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him and He gives His glory to NO ONE.

That is what and how the case is closed because if man was created sinful to begin with, then there would be no need to testify of the fall of man later on.

Let's call it what it was for there was no fall. Adam was already created fallen short of God's glory. And the Tree was to give the man the knowledge of his sinfulness. But Adam's disobedience played into the plan of God. The reason why God knows the end from the beginning is because He ordained the end. Christ was preordained and, in His preordination, He had no free will. And if we are Christians and Christ-followers we have no free will also. We also are preordained. There is a book of life with the names of those whom God is going to call out of the world (Jn. 17:6) and at the appointed time deliver from the bondage of sin and into the Shepherds arms.

There is a difference between a celestial and a terrestrial, but the terrestrial was created good as in without sin until the fall.

I presume you are referring to the word "good" in the creative narrative. Well, that word "good" merely means "good [enough]" or "to specification." In other words, God calls His creation "good", or a job well done. We do the same. "How were those tacos?" ""Man, they were good."
When you realize there was no fall you'll begin to "get it."

Indeed, Satan & his angels were perfect and good until they were not.

If they were created, they were also created fallen short of the glory of God. That's why one-third sinned. And before God created man locked them up as 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 say. Man's sinfulness and the imagination of his heart continually on evil is enough for the plan of man. What does the word in Isaiah [perfect] mean? It means "complete." The same as God calling Adam and the grass and herb bearing seed "good."

Now if you say God created them that way, without them earning that judgment from God by their deeds, then anything God creates can never be good.

Good in a moral sense? No. It cannot. There are many reasons why God cursed the ground (earth.) And if the earth is cursed then it is falling apart, but so are the planets, stars, black holes, etc., that were never cursed by God. The Law of Entropy or Chaos, in which everything in creation (universe) is degenerating, not improving.

Anything that God redeems can never be good enough either since we shall be made higher than the angels and yet if the angels has sinned, why can't that perfect future self?

I believe the only Person higher than the angels is the Son. He is the image of God, not Adam. And He is the central figure in all of Scripture, not Adam. If the image of God is Christ, then we are being conformed into the image of Christ and have gone full circle. Saul makes these distinctions in 1 Corinthians 15. One earthy and created from created matter, the other the Lord from heaven. Do the math.

And yet hell and death shall be cast into the lake of fire at the Great White Throne Judgment signifying no sin will ever separate us from God ever again.

No sin has EVER separated His elect people from Him. The only reason why His elect is called "lost" is by virtue of His blowing us into the nostrils of Adam to be born at the appointed time and born again at the appointed time. His foreknowledge of His elect begins in His Mind. He contemplated His elect as a saved, sinless, holy people in His Mind for that is the only way He can see us for there is no sin in God, there is no death in God. And by virtue of His blowing us into the loins of Adam we, His contemplated elect, became "lost." But only for a minute.

Picture this; if Adam and Eve had never sinned, mankind lives in a perfect world, wondering what is outside of God and the goodness of God?

If Adam had not disobeyed God, they would have died in time. And in this circumstance God would be giving Adam the knowledge and reality of death for Adam did not possess the Attribute of God's Eternalness. God gives His glory to NO ONE.

If Adam & eve had not sinned, one of the sons and daughters would have, wondering what would happen if they did eat from that tree of the knowledge of good & evil?

It would never have play out that way. Good to imagine that, but all is vanity. It is God's plan and things played out according to His will, not Adam's will.

But Adam & Eve did and all mankind is finding out what happens when you do not believe God at His word in going against His will as we now know the knowledge of good & evil and that is there is nothing good outside of God and His word.

You say it, now apply it to created man.

And yet salvation comes in the same simple manner as the fall did by unbelief in God's word and that is by believing God's word that all those that come to & believe in Jesus Christ shall be saved.

Belief had nothing to do with it. And there was no fall. They sinned because they were created sinful, that is, "missing the mark" of the glory of God and the word is "sin." Sin comes from sinners. Sin does not come from sinless as @Bob Carabbio erroneously believes.

That is why doing works or keeping the law cannot save us because how can the sinner make himself perfect?

OK. You start at the premise man is sinful. Take "the fall" (which is non-existent) out of the equation and see that Adam was created sinful and sinful people sin. Consider your consciousness. Consider your self-awareness. It is the same as Adam's, but we have been influenced by our parents. Adam had no parents. He lived day in and day out and nothing was amiss. Until the commandment came and he died:

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Rom. 7:7.

It applies to Adam, and he can say the same thing:

"What shall say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known disobedience, except the law had said, Thou shalt not eat of it."

For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. Rom. 7:8–10.

So what is impossible for men, is possible for God just by believing in Jesus Christ for salvation & trusting Him to help us to follow Him.

Belief has nothing to do with it except the belief, or faith of Christ. He possessed everything and by possessing everything can now give us all things. Everything about salvation is a gift. Faith, works, conversion, repentance, etc., is a gift of God thanks to the faith of Christ. It was by His faith that we are saved and the only faith that really matters through and through:

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal. 2:16.

 

[ChristB4us]

Saul said: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20.

Saul also reminded others that all that he was and did under the law that was considered as "gains", he considered it as loss and dung.

Philippians 3:1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Care to explain that?

 

[ChristB4us]

Saul said: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20.

Saul as the converted Paul said this about the law in how we are no longer under the law as no longer under that schoolmaster any more, because the law failed to make ourselves righteous for why it is impossible with men to obtain by the law, being sinners ourselves.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Care to explain this?

Or at the very least, share your faith in Jesus Christ in what He has done for you and is doing, and will do in finishing to His glory?

 

[ChristB4us]

Saul said: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20.

And that's what God was doing with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. He was giving Adam (and the woman) the KNOWLEDGE of their sinfulness. It mattered not in the long run whether they disobeyed because God didn't create man without having a plan in place. .....

Let's call it what it was for there was no fall. Adam was already created fallen short of God's glory. And the Tree was to give the man the knowledge of his sinfulness. But Adam's disobedience played into the plan of God.

You have statements that are opposing each other and are quite contrary.

Adam was created as a perfect terrestrial and therefore testified as "good" by God to say that on the 6th day.

The disobedience was committed at the eating from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil and not before. Until then, there was no disobedience & Adam & Eve was still good until they had sinned.

You cannot say there was no fall and that Adam and Eve were created as sinful for that would null & void the testimony in God's word as to what had caused the fall of mankind in the first place as that ALSO would null & void Paul's testimony as well. It was Adam's actual sin that brought death into the world. Death was not in the world until Adam had sinned.

Note below, how until Israel became a nation under the law, those that had not sinned were under death since the actual fall.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

What was that sin that death came by? By NOT believing the Word of God.

What is salvation that eternal life comes by? By believing the Word of God.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Saul also reminded others that all that he was and did under the law that was considered as "gains", he considered it as loss and dung.

Philippians 3:1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Care to explain that?

He 'considered' it gains (but it was not.)
Now, here's a question for you:

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Gal. 2:21.

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Philippians 3:9.

There was nothing supernatural to Saul's 'revelations' (Gal. 1.) As Pharisee he had access to the Hebrew Scriptures just as we do now. When it came time for him to search the Scriptures to make sense of Messiah's effect upon the covenants, he did what we can do now and search the Scriptures, and sometimes when the Lord opens our eyes to Scripture and threads together line upon line it is the same 'revelations' as Saul mentioned. And a younger Saul who himself was trying to understand the New Covenant may have made the statement in Galatians before he wrote to Jewish Christians in Philippi. So, which is it with this double minded Saul? Is righteousness of the Law or is it not?

And this isn't the first time Saul contradicts himself.

 

[ChristB4us]

He 'considered' it gains (but it was not.)
Now, here's a question for you:

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Gal. 2:21.

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Philippians 3:9.

There was nothing supernatural to Saul's 'revelations' (Gal. 1.) As Pharisee he had access to the Hebrew Scriptures just as we do now. When it came time for him to search the Scriptures to make sense of Messiah's effect upon the covenants, he did what we can do now and search the Scriptures, and sometimes when the Lord opens our eyes to Scripture and threads together line upon line it is the same 'revelations' as Saul mentioned. And a younger Saul who himself was trying to understand the New Covenant may have made the statement in Galatians before he wrote to Jewish Christians in Philippi. So, which is it with this double minded Saul? Is righteousness of the Law or is it not?

And this isn't the first time Saul contradicts himself.

You should consider that Paul did not contradict himself but you are misunderstanding him. Here is why.

Peter considered Paul's writings as equal as scripture.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Peter also said this;

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Paul was careful to write when he was speaking from himself by permission and when he was speaking a commandment from the Lord.

1 Corinthians 7:6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. 7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. 8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I. 9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. 10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

So how about showing the scripture where you seem to think Paul is contradicting himself and maybe God be willing, I, or another member in this forum may address it and clarify what you seem to see as a contradiction.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You should consider that Paul did not contradict himself but you are misunderstanding him. Here is why.

Peter considered Paul's writings as equal as scripture.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Peter also said this;

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Paul was careful to write when he was speaking from himself by permission and when he was speaking a commandment from the Lord.

1 Corinthians 7:6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. 7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. 8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I. 9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. 10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

So how about showing the scripture where you seem to think Paul is contradicting himself and maybe God be willing, I, or another member in this forum may address it and clarify what you seem to see as a contradiction.

Again, here is the contradiction.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Gal. 2:21.

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Philippians 3:9.

So, which is it with this double minded Saul? Is righteousness of the Law or is it not? Because he is saying two contradictory things. In one, righteousness is of the Law, the other he says it is not.

And this isn't the first time Saul contradicts himself. He changes Old Testament prophecy at will by changing a word to make it say something entirely different.

 

[ChristB4us]

Again, here is the contradiction.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Gal. 2:21.

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Philippians 3:9.

So, which is it with this double minded Saul? Is righteousness of the Law or is it not? Because he is saying two contradictory things. In one, righteousness is of the Law, the other he says it is not.

And this isn't the first time Saul contradicts himself. He changes Old Testament prophecy at will by changing a word to make it say something entirely different.

There is no contradiction, brother.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Gal. 2:21.

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Philippians 3:9.

 

[jeremiah1five]

There is no contradiction, brother.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Gal. 2:21.

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Philippians 3:9.

My mistake. Here is the contradiction:

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Philippians 3:6.

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law Philippians 3:9.

One cannot be made righteous through the Law.

 

[ChristB4us]

My mistake. Here is the contradiction:

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Philippians 3:6.

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law Philippians 3:9.

One cannot be made righteous through the Law.

I agree that one cannot be made righteous through the law.

If you read Philippians 3:6 in context, Paul was warning believers about the Judaizers and then shared his past as a Jew to show the vanity of Judaism as well as how after salvation in Christ Jesus, considered all that he had seen himself as a Jew but dung.

So when you read verse 6 in context, it was from the former mindset as he was as a Jew, but the reality is the last verse.

Philippians 3:1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

So Paul was showing a comparison as a former Jew in verses 4-6 to how he sees himself as a Jew in the past in light of the knowledge of Christ in verses 7-9.