GOD CREATED MAN (ADAM) SINFUL

[jeremiah1five]

Look, I'm done with this branch of the thread...Isaiah used poetry. The opposite of evil isn't peace.

You can argue all you want to....but you lost. I hate to put it that blunt...part of what a forum is about is for you and me to learn. Instead of you learning a new truth, you decided to fight it. Then again, you're the self proclaimed know it all expert on all biblical topics.

You haven't posted your passage that says that so I cannot respond to what you've said.
I only share what I know. I don't post beyond my measure of faith.
But not all measures are the same. Some have more measure, some less.

 

[CrowCross]

You haven't posted your passage that says that so I cannot respond to what you've said.

What you should have said is that you now understand the Isaiah verse is poetic and the KJV translation and others don't follow the poetic parallelism rules. Evil isn't the opposite of peace. Evil shouldn't have been used.....Therefore, using that verse to show God created Adam sinful is a misapplication.

 

[jeremiah1five]

What you should have said is that you now understand the Isaiah verse is poetic and the KJV translation and others don't follow the poetic parallelism rules. Evil isn't the opposite of peace. Evil shouldn't have been used.....Therefore, using that verse to show God created Adam sinful is a misapplication.

Isaiah is not using opposites.
The word "raʿ" is there in the Hebrew Scriptures. They were ordained of God to care for the oracles of God and their method of copying their bible is an exact 'science' and accuracy.
God is the first cause for everything that exists in creation. Even evil as Isaiah says.
Do you have difficulty receiving the Word of God as written? You are instead telling the Word of God what to say. There are those that don't like what the Word of Truth says, like God delivering people into "hell" and change it to read what they want it to say. Unbelievers do that all the time.
Even here.

 

[brightfame52]

What you should have said is that you now understand the Isaiah verse is poetic and the KJV translation and others don't follow the poetic parallelism rules. Evil isn't the opposite of peace. Evil shouldn't have been used.....Therefore, using that verse to show God created Adam sinful is a misapplication.

Adam was sinful at creation, just innocent until he manifested his sinfulness. However, it was all according to Gods Purpose in Christ, a Redemptive Purpose, so Adam must sin, Christ was already setup as the Redeemer f His People, before the world began 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

 

[CrowCross]

Isaiah is not using opposites.
The word "raʿ" is there in the Hebrew Scriptures. They were ordained of God to care for the oracles of God and their method of copying their bible is an exact 'science' and accuracy.
God is the first cause for everything that exists in creation. Even evil as Isaiah says.
Do you have difficulty receiving the Word of God as written? You are instead telling the Word of God what to say. There are those that don't like what the Word of Truth says, like God delivering people into "hell" and change it to read what they want it to say. Unbelievers do that all the time.
Even here.

Dude, they say when the hole you have dug is so deep you can't get out.....STOP DIGGING.

 

[CrowCross]

Adam was sinful at creation, just innocent until he manifested his sinfulness.

Wrong. Adam had the ability to sin...but until he sinned wasn't sinful.

What you are in reality saying that if Adam died prior to eating from the tree...he would have been judged guilty and went to hell because he was sinful.

 

[brightfame52]

Wrong. Adam had the ability to sin...but until he sinned wasn't sinful.

What you are in reality saying that if Adam died prior to eating from the tree...he would have been judged guilty and went to hell because he was sinful.

Having the ability to sin is sinful, only sinfulness can give that ability. Redeemed Men will not have tha ability to sin in Glory, and Christ didnt have that ability to sin, because He was as a Man Perfectly sinless, as was His Nature as a Man. So once you acknowledged that Adam had the ability to sin, you actually prove that he was sinful.

Before Adam sinned, though sinful, he was innocent of any guilt for any infraction of Gods command. And no Adam didnt die before he sinned, it was after he sinned that his innocent, pure fellowship with God died.

 

[CrowCross]

Having the ability to sin is sinful,

Can you present a chapter and verse to support this false notion Adam was sinful when he was created and creation pronounced as very good?

 

[brightfame52]

Can you present a chapter and verse to support this false notion Adam was sinful when he was created and creation pronounced as very good?

No, I cant, but its something I perceive to be true. Adam was a sinner, thats why he sinned, I gave you my reasons, if you dont accept it, thats fine. But Adam was made and man in him, in accordance with a redemptive purpose in Christ, which necessitated man sinning, and so adam was very good according to that purpose.

 

[CrowCross]

No, I cant, but its something I perceive to be true. Adam was a sinner, thats why he sinned, I gave you my reasons, if you dont accept it, thats fine. But Adam was made and man in him, in accordance with a redemptive purpose in Christ, which necessitated man sinning, and so adam was very good according to that purpose.

Believe what you want.

As I said Adam was very good...made in God image. You added "according to that purpose" and "in accordance with redemptive power".

Q. We all know some of the angels sinned and fell....I suppose you can call the fallen angels as "sinners"....but would you also call the angels that didn't rebel sinners? I imagine you would say yes.

 

[brightfame52]

Believe what you want.

As I said Adam was very good...made in God image. You added "according to that purpose" and "in accordance with redemptive power".

Q. We all know some of the angels sinned and fell....I suppose you can call the fallen angels as "sinners"....but would you also call the angels that didn't rebel sinners? I imagine you would say yes.

I have nothing to add

 

[jeremiah1five]

Dude, they say when the hole you have dug is so deep you can't get out.....STOP DIGGING.

I'm on a mission. Trying to get to China.
Break on through to the other side, I say, Dude.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Pretty straightforward. The Law/Command in the Garden showed that the first man (Adam) was a sinner BEFORE he sinned

Foolishness. Adam had been GIVEN THE LAW: (don't eat of that tree).

Then, of course, satan told Adam that God was a liar, and Adam believed satan, and tossed God under the bus.

THAT'S when Adam became a SINNER - after he sinned in EXACTLY THE WAY decribed in James 1. Adams personal desire (LUST) allowed to conceive, and birth Sinful actions. I became a sinner in exactly the same way, and so did you.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Foolishness. Adam had been GIVEN THE LAW: (don't eat of that tree).

Then, of course, satan told Adam that God was a liar, and Adam believed satan, and tossed God under the bus.

First, the angels that sinned are locked up (2 Peter. 2:4; Jude 1:6.)
Second, it doesn't say Adam was tempted. The woman was:

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 1 Timothy. 2:14.

Third, there was no discussion between an imaginary "Satan" who was locked up at the time and that the woman merely gave the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and he took it and ate it:

...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Gen. 3:6b.

Fourth, it says in James that when temptation comes it comes from within us not from without us:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:14.

This, incidentally, is the same way Jesus was tempted.

THAT'S when Adam became a SINNER - after he sinned in EXACTLY THE WAY decribed in James 1. Adams personal desire (LUST) allowed to conceive, and birth Sinful actions. I became a sinner in exactly the same way, and so did you.

I sin because I was born a sinner. Same as the first man and woman. That's the way they were created by God. A sinner. And sin comes from sinner. Sin does not come from holy, or sinlessness, or righteousness. Sin comes from sinner.
There is only ONE God.
There is NONE like Him.
God gives His Glory (sinlessness, Holiness, Righteousness) to NO ONE as said by Isaiah.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

First, the angels that sinned are locked up (2 Peter. 2:4; Jude 1:6.)

Only a SPECIFIC GROUP of angels (time of Noah). Satan, and others of his group have never been "Locked up". your First statement in inaccurate.

Second, it doesn't say Adam was tempted. The woman was:

You don't think "Being like GOD" is a "temptation". Eve wasn't there alone, you know. If Adam wasn't tempted, he wouldn't have eat en what God told him not to. Second point is inaccurate

14 And Adam was not deceived,

SO Adam was MORE in the transgression than Eve, since he did it ON PURPOSE, and knowingly.

Third, there was no discussion between an imaginary "Satan" who was locked up at the time and that the woman merely gave the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and he took it and ate it

Since satan was motivating the "Serpent", ans WAS NOT "Locked up
" your third argument is worthless.

Fourth, it says in James that when temptation comes it comes from within us not from without us:

Read it again - "AND ENTICED" which is from without. So much for your fourth argument

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:14.

So Adam wanted to BE LIKE GOD, and satan told him that the "Tree" would do the job, and God was a liar.

And Adam fell for it, and became a SINNER - in exactly the same way we all do, and for the same reason. James one reveals the process.

 

[TMSO]

In the beginning, was Adam the federal head for all mankind to include the reprobate, or for only the elect ?

He was the representative (federal head) for all of mankind. For by one man sin entered the world, and through/by sin, death. And since All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, that one man is the federal head for all mankind. Adam was obviously the federal head for mankind in many things, being the first from which all others come. (I know, birds and bees, so Eve too, but what was the difference between Jesus and the rest of mankind? He didn't have a human father, and He was born sinless.

As for the elect... born of Adam, adopted by God through Christ to Himself. So, I'm sorry to be the one to tell you... you're adopted. (Actually, that great!)

 

[jeremiah1five]

Only a SPECIFIC GROUP of angels (time of Noah). Satan, and others of his group have never been "Locked up". your First statement in inaccurate.

Well, Bob, it doesn't specify. But it does say the "angels that sinned are locked up." I'm sure there are angels that didn't sin that are locked up. It's the same thing if I were to say, "the baseball players wear uniforms." That reads inclusive, don't you think? If you're a baseball player, you are wearing a uniform. There's no exclusivity here. Yes, I know. If this is true then the Gentile Church must rethink its theology about evil in the world, which from where I stand is all caused by man.

You don't think "Being like GOD" is a "temptation". Eve wasn't there alone, you know. If Adam wasn't tempted, he wouldn't have eat en what God told him not to. Second point is inaccurate

There is no verse in any Bible Adam was tempted. The woman just gave him the fruit and he just ate it without any influence. Now, there are not two- or three-ways man is tempted, but one, and it's just as James says:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:14.

This is the same way Jesus was tempted. Now, I don't get my doctrine from a translation. I study many things before I come here and make my submissions. And unless you can find me incontrovertible proof from Scripture there are other ways of being tempted, I'll take a look. But I myself find none.

SO Adam was MORE in the transgression than Eve, since he did it ON PURPOSE, and knowingly.

He knew. God commanded him. But to him he was oblivious to what "die" means since there was no death in the Garden until he ate from the tree. But when he did eat from the tree, he still did not understand death until he was on his deathbed 930 years later for the human spirit that did die "in the day" he ate from the tree is insensible to his - and our - awareness until as believers the Holy Spirit communicates with our [human] spirit that we are children of God.

Since satan was motivating the "Serpent", ans WAS NOT "Locked up
" your third argument is worthless.

Well, in order to have the holding of belief the Gentile Church believes today on "Lucifer" or "Satan" or "devil" (words that are sometimes an adjective) they have to completely ignore a passage of Scripture in James, that it is "of [our] own lust" through which we are tempted. And that's exactly what the Gentile Church does to their own error and hurt. But they don't care.

Read it again - "AND ENTICED" which is from without. So much for your fourth argument

The verse in James is inclusive. It is OF HIS OWN LUST through which entice is understood.

So Adam wanted to BE LIKE GOD, and satan told him that the "Tree" would do the job, and God was a liar.

There's nothing in the text the serpent spoke anything to Adam. Eisegesis.

And Adam fell for it, and became a SINNER - in exactly the same way we all do, and for the same reason. James one reveals the process.

Adam was already a sinner for there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory (sinlessness) to NO ONE, Isaiah says. Adam sinned because he was a sinner. He was created fallen short of the glory of God when you apply what Isaiah says, and what Isaiah says defines the creative make-up of the created man. The word is "sin." It means "missing the mark."
What is the "mark" he "missed"?
The glory of God, or the glory that is God.
No, all my arguments hold up. I don't omit passages of Scripture nor add things to the Bible not stated. I have correctly understood this "so-great salvation" on these points.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Well, Bob, it doesn't specify. But it does say the "angels that sinned are locked up." I'm sure there are angels that didn't sin that are locked up. It's the same thing if I were to say, "the baseball players wear uniforms." That reads inclusive, don't you think? If you're a baseball player, you are wearing a uniform. There's no exclusivity here. Yes, I know. If this is true then the Gentile Church must rethink its theology about evil in the world, which from where I stand is all caused by man.

There is no verse in any Bible Adam was tempted. The woman just gave him the fruit and he just ate it without any influence. Now, there are not two- or three-ways man is tempted, but one, and it's just as James says:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:14.

This is the same way Jesus was tempted. Now, I don't get my doctrine from a translation. I study many things before I come here and make my submissions. And unless you can find me incontrovertible proof from Scripture there are other ways of being tempted, I'll take a look. But I myself find none.

He knew. God commanded him. But to him he was oblivious to what "die" means since there was no death in the Garden until he ate from the tree. But when he did eat from the tree, he still did not understand death until he was on his deathbed 930 years later for the human spirit that did die "in the day" he ate from the tree is insensible to his - and our - awareness until as believers the Holy Spirit communicates with our [human] spirit that we are children of God.

Well, in order to have the holding of belief the Gentile Church believes today on "Lucifer" or "Satan" or "devil" (words that are sometimes an adjective) they have to completely ignore a passage of Scripture in James, that it is "of [our] own lust" through which we are tempted. And that's exactly what the Gentile Church does to their own error and hurt. But they don't care.

The verse in James is inclusive. It is OF HIS OWN LUST through which entice is understood.

There's nothing in the text the serpent spoke anything to Adam. Eisegesis.

Adam was already a sinner for there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory (sinlessness) to NO ONE, Isaiah says. Adam sinned because he was a sinner. He was created fallen short of the glory of God when you apply what Isaiah says, and what Isaiah says defines the creative make-up of the created man. The word is "sin." It means "missing the mark."
What is the "mark" he "missed"?
The glory of God, or the glory that is God.
No, all my arguments hold up. I don't omit passages of Scripture nor add things to the Bible not stated. I have correctly understood this "so-great salvation" on these points.

CHuckle!!! Have it your own way, no sense continuing.

 

[jeremiah1five]

CHuckle!!! Have it your own way, no sense continuing.

Couldn't withstand the Word of God, eh?
It happens.

 

[brightfame52]

@TMSO

He was the representative (federal head) for all of mankind.

I disagree, I believe in the beginning he was just the federal head for the elect. They were the sons of God made in the image of God Lk 3:38

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.