Fruit Of The Spirit

[fastfredy0]

I say the correct meaning of the Verse is Evil, not Calamity.

I agree, though saying so would make God the Author of Evil by my definition. I say God causes ALL things although some things are second (third, fourth, fifth ...) causes.

God Creates Light and Darkness; like the Sun creates light and darkness. The Sun does this just by shining, not by going the extra mile to Create something called Darkness. Darkness is the absence of Light, just like Cold is the absence of Heat; in this way Darkness and Cold do not exist.

Agreed ... though the phrasing that the sun creates light and darkness contradicts the rest of your statement IMO. God creates light and darkness is not a thing, but just the lack of light. I think we are on the same page.

Evil exists because God's Righteousness is the Standard.

Agreed

I think we are in total agreement though I don't like the phrasing that God creates darkness/evil because they are not things, but lack of something in a thing. This goes well with God creating everything and it was good.

 

[fastfredy0]

Correct. Isaiah 45:7 is better seen as "Calamity".....

Maybe ... or maybe that's the interpretation given it to support someone's theology. Personally, calling weather evil does go with my usage of the term evil.

God culpable "if" He creates something that ultimately operates of "it's" freewill to disobey Him.

I disagree. God is culpable when God says He is culpable. He makes the rules. He does not play by the same rules as He has given us.
Aside: You did not define Free Will so I have no comment in that regard.

 

[ReverendRV]

I agree, though saying so would make God the Author of Evil by my definition. I say God causes ALL things although some things are second (third, fourth, fifth ...) causes.


Agreed ... though the phrasing that the sun creates light and darkness contradicts the rest of your statement IMO. God creates light and darkness is not a thing, but just the lack of light. I think we are on the same page.


Agreed

I think we are in total agreement though I don't like the phrasing that God creates darkness/evil because they are not things, but lack of something in a thing. This goes well with God creating everything and it was good.

I'll add this. The word for Evil in the Verse is Ra, and can mean Calamity in certain Contexts. The Word is used in Genesis to describe the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil; not the Tree of Calamity. So we probably agree that God Created a Tree of the Knowledge of Evil; and God said his Creation was Good...

God's Creating the Tree could be, let's say; a 5th Causation. How far does God have to be removed from a Cause, before he is not the Author of Sin?

 

[ReverendRV]

Maybe ... or maybe that's the interpretation given it to support someone's theology. Personally, calling weather evil does go with my usage of the term evil.

God is Providential, right?

 

[fastfredy0]

God's Creating the Tree could be let's say, a 5th Causation. How far does God have to be removed from a Cause, before he is not the Author of Sin?

It's like a billiards table. The guy is the cause of the movement of all the balls no matter how many contacts between balls has been made.

It's not like I believe in deism. Acts 17:28 ‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are His offspring.’ If God suddently didn't exist I believe we would not exist either .... anti-deism.

 

[ReverendRV]

It's like a billiards table. The guy is the cause of the movement of all the balls no matter how many contacts between balls has been made.

It's not like I believe in deism. Acts 17:28 ‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are His offspring.’ If God suddently didn't exist I believe we would not exist either .... anti-deism.

Thanks for letting me have my say so...

God's Providential involvement in an Evil Storm, doesn't make him Culpable for Sin as the Author of the storm. We can't escape God's involvement; it's called the Problem of Evil...

At the end of the Day, we MUST have a God who Creates Evil. I admit this to Atheists, and they have to go to Plan B; they can't use the Problem of Evil against me, or as a reason to reject God. The Fear of God is the beginning of Wisdom. We do not need to get God off the hook by finally getting an Atheist to accept God is a 10th Causation. They will want more distance; IE that Deistic god...

 

[praise_yeshua]

Maybe ... or maybe that's the interpretation given it to support someone's theology. Personally, calling weather evil does go with my usage of the term evil.

Satan creates weather. Satan killed the children of Job with a tornado. God has used the wind to judge sin. There is a choice to be made here.

I disagree. God is culpable when God says He is culpable. He makes the rules. He does not play by the same rules as He has given us.
Aside: You did not define Free Will so I have no comment in that regard.

Making rules that others follow does not make God culpable.

Culpable= deserving condemnation or blame as wrong or harmful. (definitely not God)

Example, I'm a gun advocate. I believe in the right to protect ourselves with force. Abraham defended Lot and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah by KILLING murders and thieves.

Do you "blame" or find gun manufacturers as being "culpable" for making guns? If not, then tell me how you apply culpability.

"Freewill" = is more difficult to define. In this "context" is a theological distinction. "Freewill" does not imply power to act, it is merely the right to chose. Some positions try to "fabric" power in freewill. Freewill is often powerless to act. However, this does preclude/exclude from choices being made.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I disagree with your description but we are not very "far" apart on this. I reject "submission" in the Trinity and Incarnation.

The Son said He came to do the Father's work.
Was He forced?
Or, like a good Son He obeyed the Father's plan.

 

[fastfredy0]

Satan creates weather. Satan killed the children of Job with a tornado.

Satan was/is controlled by God. When it came to hassling Job, God set the limits.

Making rules that others follow does not make God culpable.

Agreed. Only God could make God culpable. God can make other culpable.

Culpable= deserving condemnation or blame as wrong or harmful. (definitely not God)

Agreed. God set the rules for condemnation. If I purposely make a man blind I am culpable. If God makes a man blind (John 9:3) He's not culpable.

Do you "blame" or find gun manufacturers as being "culpable" for making guns?

No

If not, then tell me how you apply culpability.

Someone in authority determines reason(s) for a person to be condemned/blamed. God condemns all (Rom. 11:32). God appoints men to be in authority over men and said authorities define culpability which may and may not be consistent with God's definition.

"Freewill" does not imply power to act, it is merely the right to chose.

Too obtuse a definition for me. That is the definition of WILL without the qualifier of FREE. FREE from whose influence?

 

[jeremiah1five]

He fell. There is no indication of the crafting of sin in Adam. The Breath of God animated weak flesh. Adam was crafted from dust. He had a body that was peccable and corruptible from the very beginning. If you're stating that Adam was crafted with the propensity to sin, then you're overstating the use of "harmatia".

The created man had no 'weak' flesh. He was dust when God breathed into his nostrils.
Adam sinned, didn't he? It came from out of him. He was sinner before he sinned which is why he sinned.

Adam experienced what God experienced. Adam was gift Eve. Eve was tempted and there is no indication that Eve would have sin if not for the Serpent. Adam willing choose HIS GIFT over God. Which is why ADAM sinned. He willing became what Eve was. From the very beginning the love of Christ is literally expressed narrative of Adam/Eve.

It was the Tree of the KNOLEDGE of Good and Evil.
They gained the KNOLEDGE of their evil before God.
The existence of a Law in the garden proved they were sinners. God said, "Thou Shalt Not [eat of it.]"
That's why they sinned. it was because they were sinners. Sin does not come from holy.
Sin comes from sinners.

You seem to be a thoughtful person and I acknowledge the fact that you've spent more time than most considering the Truth of God. I enjoy interacting with people such as yourself. I've enjoyed our conversation. I only disagree because I must. I don't have any anger or animosity in what I'm about to say... so don't take it that way. I'm just arguing for the Truth brother...

I don't anger easily. And I don't sense that coming from you.

I can't deny that the proverb is very ancient. Oral traditions have been handed down from the beginning. Solomon may well have gotten it from David who heard it from his father and so forth.

I reject the idea of "before" the foundation. I can accept the word "before" if it is within the context of "accounting". The lamb was "accounted" slain before the foundation of the world. Which means that Christ was as good as dead.... in the purpose of God for humanity before Adam was ever crafted. Which imparts to humanity the remedy for sin before man ever sinned. God has always looked for faith from the sinful.

The word in Rev. 13:8 is the word "from," and it means "in front of," or "before."
Before God created anything and anyone a lamb was slain.
This allowed a Righteous God to create an unrighteous man.
Adam.
And the woman.

 

[jeremiah1five]

It's not the word of God I am rejecting, it is your erroneous understanding of it.

[edit by mod: unnecessary inflammatory language]
The word for evil is "ra." It means moral evil.
It's just that it doesn't jive with your belief, so you do what millions of Christians do when truth confronts their lie.
They keep the lie because truth comes with responsibility and accountability. And they don't want to be responsible or accountable to God.
So, they remain blind for their comfort.
Truth really takes us out of our comfort zones.
It really does.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Christ is the firstfruit of the resurrection, not of God's people, the one olive tree, of which the branches are the people of God.

In botany, the branches do not proceed from the root, but from the trunk.
Proceed in the metaphor of the natural olive tree is about the proceeding of the people of God; i.e.,
the branches (God's people) proceed from the roots, the patriarchs (and spiritually ]I]through[/I] the trunk, Christ).
The NT people of God are in Christ, who is the trunk, as they are in the vine (Christ).

If you can understand text, you will see there is only one olive tree of the people of God, from which tree the branch of Israel has been cut off, and the branch of the Gentiles has been grafted in (Ro 11:1-23).

The firstfruits of God one olive tree of the people of God were the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, its holy (set apart) roots.

In botany, the branches partake of the root of the tree through the trunk, in which the branches "abide" (Christ).

And that's IF, not "when," they do not persist in unbelief.

Christ is also the BRANCH.

8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou,
And thy fellows that sit before thee:
For they are men wondered at:
For, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
Zec 3:8.

The Root is God.
The BRANCH is God.
Abiding in the Vine which is Christ is like abiding in the BRANCH.
But you don't believe the Word of God.

 

[Eleanor]

No, you reject the Word of God to lean on your own understanding in the vanity of your mind.
The word for evil is "ra." It means moral evil.
It's just that it doesn't jive with your belief,
I also so you do what millions of Christians do when truth confronts their lie.

Or you presume the use of words 2700 years ago is exactly as it is today.

 

[Eleanor]

Christ is also the BRANCH.

Depends on the metaphor.

I'm getting a good picture of the problem.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Or you presume the use of words 2700 years ago is exactly as it is today.

For the "Jews" they used the word 2700 years ago and were the keepers of the oracles [Word] of God.
Their copying was much more precise. They use it in Moses time nearly 4700 years ago and use it today.
No one has to tell a "Jew" today the word means anything other than 'moral evil.'
Christians love to hellenize God's Word. They take the Word of God TO and FOR the "Jews" the Chosen people of God and bastardize it by hellenizing it.
Platonic thought, Aristotelian thought and the philosophers throughout history have made all kinds of claims of heresy that have creeped into the church theology today. People like Kant, Hume, and many others have philosophized about God and the Scripture and Christian doctrine from denying the Deity of Christ, the idea of God, and other biblical teaching, and today's Christians like those in the past eat it up.
You should do your homework about what you believe and why.
I see a lot of human philosophy in your belief-system.
But you're not listening.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Depends on the metaphor.

I'm getting a good picture of the problem.

Zechariah says Christ is the BRANCH and you accept it.
God says He created evil in Isaiah and you reject it.
You pick and choose.
That is dangerous to yourself and the people you may speak to about God.
The God of Truth doesn't use lies to minister to someone.

 

[makesends]

Why are you creating trouble where there is none, busybody.
I am not shouting. Even bold letters are not shouting but emphasis.

Ah! Once again, it seems, I took the dog by the ears.

 

[makesends]

Which means?...

True Israel, God's chosen people, the elect.

 

[KatarinaVonBora]

Regarding the question: Define "Author of Sin" in the context that God is not the author of sin

Some argue this verse use of ‘evil’ refers to natural disaster. Is a that your interpretation?


That's an easy one IMO. Yes God knew as God is all knowing.
The crux of theodicies is: How did God know Adam and Eve would sin?

 

[Eleanor]

For the "Jews" they used the word 2700 years ago and were the keepers of the oracles [Word] of God.
Their copying was much more precise. They use it in Moses time nearly 4700 years ago and use it today.
No one has to tell a "Jew" today the word means anything other than 'moral evil.'
Christians love to hellenize God's Word. They take the Word of God TO and FOR the "Jews" the Chosen people of God and bastardize it by hellenizing it.
Platonic thought, Aristotelian thought and the philosophers throughout history have made all kinds of claims of heresy that have creeped into the church theology today. People like Kant, Hume, and many others have philosophized about God and the Scripture and Christian doctrine from denying the Deity of Christ, the idea of God, and other biblical teaching, and today's Christians like those in the past eat it up.
You should do your homework about what you believe and why.
I see a lot of human philosophy in your belief-system.

Lotta' hat and no cowboy.

I still await your Biblical demonstration of my error.