Free Will ~yet again.

[Carbon]

Told me if I am one of the reprobate I am lost, without telling us who God pre chose.

Calvin isn't God, how is he supposed to know?

 

[Ritajanice]

You didn't even explain what it means to "know in your spirit", any differences involve.

Of course I explained it..we are Born Of The Spirit..the Spirit testifies/ Witnesses with our spirit that we are Gods children..that comes by divine revelation ....as the Spirit is indwelling our spirit he witnesses / testifies that truth to our spirit...it’s a Living spirit birth...

Again -- Please tell us the difference between knowing Jesus in their own understanding and knowing Jesus in their spirit. And please be specific.

I already have..I can’t be more precise than the way I’ve explained it..

 

[Carbon]

It is not pertinent to the discussion.

Your right. No harm in asking though, I hope

 

[Ritajanice]

Saving faith is the faith though which one is saved by grace (Eph 2:8). It doesn't get more biblical than that.

We are saved by the Spirit Of God when we are Born Again...

Saved from eternal damnation...Faith is a gift from God a manifestation of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:7-9​

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King James Version​

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​

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

God gave me the gift of faith...all to Glorify His Name!

Later @JIM ..it’s late here in the U.K..off to bed now..Laters.

 

[JIM]

Well, of course.

Yes, we are saved by grace.
Through faith.

But without getting saved by grace first, we cannot have faith.

That is an absolutely terrible exegesis of the verse, absolutely unintelligent.

I acquired my house though mortgaging. Did I acquire it first then get the mortgage?

You do not seem to grasp the concept of "through faith" as it is used there.

No offence intended Jm, but think on this passage considering what I said.

He, Carbon, I am not offended by your misinterpretation and misunderstanding of that passage.

 

[JIM]

Of course I explained it..we are Born Of The Spirit..the Spirit testifies/ Witnesses with our spirit that we are Gods children..that comes by divine revelation ....as the Spirit is indwelling our spirit he witnesses / testifies that truth to our spirit...it’s a Living spirit birth...

I already have..I can’t be more precise than the way I’ve explained it..

You haven't explained anything, you have just said some stuff using the word "spirit", but I will leave it at that.

 

[Arial]

No it does not say he knew those He predestined; rathe, it says He predestined those He foreknew (Rom 8:29): "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined... just the opposite of what you claimed.

It is not the opposite of what I claimed. Comprehension problem? Try reading it again.

The Bible tells us that He knew (a personal knowing, not a looking forward into time to see who would choose Him and then electing them) who He had predestined to give to Jesus before the foundation of the world.

Yes, an anecdote, whether true or not.

Oh it is true. Don't suggest I am lying again. That is what my brother said. And if you would take the time and do the work to grow in your knowledge of God as He says He is, instead of resisting Him, faith would find the logic. In order to doubt whether or not God keeps the life in those He chooses to give to Christ, one has to believe that it is not God who gives life and takes it away. Even if you don't believe that God chooses who to adopt (funny people can do that but God is not allowed) you would still have to believe that someone or something besides God is in charge of whether you live or die. Even though He is the only source of life.

 

[Carbon]

That is an absolutely terrible exegesis of the verse, absolutely unintelligent.

Actually, it's not bad. Seen better, but it's not bad.

I acquired my house though mortgaging. Did I acquire it first then get the mortgage?

Jim, this has nothing to do with how you bought your house. Sorry.

You do not seem to grasp the concept of "through faith" as it is used there.

Actually, I do. I believe it is you who does not get it.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— Eph 2.

How have we been saved? By grace Jim.

Through what? Faith.

It's not from ourselves, it's a gift. Yes, Jim, faith is a gift. It's by grace that we receive this gift.

He, Carbon, I am not offended by your misinterpretation and misunderstanding of that passage.

I'm relieved. Phew...

 

[Ritajanice]

You haven't explained anything, you have just said some stuff using the word "spirit", but I will leave it at that.

I gave you the word of God.please look it up.

The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children...that comes by divine revelation JIM.

◄ John 3:8 ►

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” New Living Translation The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.” English Standard Version The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Berean Standard Bible The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” Berean Literal Bible The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know from where it comes and where it goes. Thus is everyone having been born of the Spirit.

Very simple to understand...anyway I too will leave it there, I must get some shut eye.God Bless.

 

[Carbon]

@JIM think about something for a moment, it is really silly to think that faith can ever be an arbitrary act of the will. Do you really believe that man can ever believe or disbelieve because he chooses to? Think about how silly you sound when you say things like that. You would be better off calling it a wish.

 

[Arial]

I don’t believe it is...we can only believe in Jesus initially, even then God brings us to believe in Jesus.

Then he gifts us the faith to believe in our spirit,/ regenerated/ Born Again...Faith is a gift from God...once we receive that God given gift of faith...it will then start to mature and grow.

Even then I’ve had to understand what faith is....via Gods Spirit...all I knew at the beginning of my walk, that I was Born Again...that was all I knew in my heart/spirit...it’s taken years to grow in the Spirit Of God.

Just don't think that you are done growing.

 

[Arial]

If that were truly the case, then there would never be any dispute among the regeneration. The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion concerning the thoughts of God.

It is truly the case and the disputes over interpretation and doctrine have nothing to do with what Paul was saying about the natural man. The natural man cannot understand spiritual truths. That does mean that the regenerated man knows all truth and never gets anything wrong. The natural man finds the idea of a virgin birth, the story of creation, a triune God, heaven, hell, a dead man coming to life to save sinners---even the idea of sin itself, foolishness.

If have any doubts about whether that is true or not, and if there ever was a time in your life when you were not "born again", remember the other you and how you felt about such things. A person can give mental assent to these things, without having any true belief or trust in them, simply because have heard it or for whatever reason. But none of it goes from anyone's head to the heart and soul without regeneration. Regeneration is a heart change.

That is another one of those passages, the actual meaning of which, Calvinists distort in the vain attempt to support their view. That entire passage is Paul's assertion and defense of his and the other apostles' and prophets' divine inspiration. The natural man in that second chapter is simply the non divinely inspired person.

Paul is indeed defending his apostleship which was being questioned (not his divine inspiration), the authority of what he taught, which he received from the Holy Spirit. Yet he is writing to fellow believers who have the indwelling Spirit. They are spiritual persons too or they would not be able of understand what he said. (Think back to the problem the Jews were having with understanding the things Jesus said in said in John 6. Look it up and read it if you can't remember. He compared Himself to bread and even said they must drink His blood and eat His flesh).

You need to stop blaming Calvin for everything you do not believe and cannot understand.

 

[fastfredy0]

I said:
Yes, Yes. "WILL" is the ability to choose amongst options.
Now the question is: "What is the FREE part in the definition of FREE WILL? With that definition you have the foundation for further discussion. What determines our WILL to choose amongst options?

Would that not be the same as imparted on Adam and Eve?

I was referring to "free will" as it applies to people today. Adam and Eve were created sinless whereas we were not. We are conceived in sin (Psalm 5:5).

God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice to obey Him or disobey Him. Adam and Eve were free to do anything they wanted, except eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:16-17, “And the LORD God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.’”

As I often state: one must define "free will" before discussing it because there are varying definitions out there. We are able to make choices but what determines our choices? Are our choices free from God's influence, the influence of others, free from our own inclinations/desires. You can't effectively talk about FREE WILL with defining the FREE part of the term.

If God had not given Adam and Eve the choice, they would have essentially been robots,

If "robots" means we do as determined by another and "free will" means God does not determine our choices then said definition makes God a "robot" at times as He is obligated to act according to our decisions that He did not determine. He must give us eternal life if we have salvific faith or He must send us to hell if we do not have salvific faith; in effect in this situation God is a "robot". *giggle*

 

[Carbon]

You do not seem to grasp the concept of "through faith" as it is used there.

God gives His elect that which He requires of them. He creates in man the capacity to believe in the moment of regeneration. God causes the elect to exercise saving faith in response to His efficacious call. So, after all is said and done, it is God who is the Author of saving faith. Men exercise saving faith only in so far as they are filled and prompted by the Spirit.
So, it is not for man to take the credit for their believing as though they embraced Christ by their own wisdom and strength. This saving faith that men (the elect) have is a free, underserved, non-meritorious gift of God. Eph 2:8.

Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

 

[Rella]

How can you have faith in God without him gifting you faith ?

Saving faith is the faith though which one is saved by grace (Eph 2:8). It doesn't get more biblical than that.

JIM,

Read what Ritajanice asked.

Now read what you wrote.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
For by grace you have been saved through faith; exactly as you said....

and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; and as she said... a gift.

 

[Rella]

Calvin isn't God, how is he supposed to know?

Exactly. But as a self-appointed prophet he influenced many a church and person.

You almost never hear of a debate on predestination without Calvin mentioned in the mix.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
On the contrary, it is only a hard pill for human dignity to swallow. God has every reason to make a just demand of perfection, because he is perfectly pure. That we are builf incapable of obeying it demonstrates the mercy and grace of God in that we are in total dependence on him for accomplishing what he demands. WE CANNOT DO IT, OF OURSELVES. And there is the need the Gospel resolves.

But we are not incapable of obeying God's law. It only is that we have not obeyed it perfectly. I have obeyed much of God's law. I have not murdered anyone. I have honored my mother and father and still do even though they died many years ago. But even more than that, even having been born again does not mean that will will perfectly obey. The gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit certainly helps in that regard, but He does not solve that problem completely.

Then what is your problem with what I have said? If imperfectly, guilty of the whole.

Remember Romans 8:7 "The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so." This "mind governed by the flesh" is contextually contrasted with the mind governed by the Spirit of God. "Compliance is not submission."

makesends said:
The assumption of free will (as defined by Pelagians and other self-determinists) is why there was a need for the thoughts the Reformation brought about. They were and are in error, to consider themselves as possessing some dignity as mere humans.

It wasn't a problem of free will that brought about the reformation.

True enough . There is no such thing! (At least, not as it seems most define it.)

The problem that brought about the Reformation was the various claims that philosophically depend on self-determinism, and in particular, Catholicism's excursions from sound doctrine.

 

[makesends]

Exactly. But as a self-appointed prophet he influenced many a church and person.

You almost never hear of a debate on predestination without Calvin mentioned in the mix.

Funny, that. I hear easily ten times more about Calvin from those bent on destroying Calvinism and Reformed Theology, than I do from Calvinists and the Reformed. I wouldn't be surprised to find that I have never mentioned him in these forums unless in response to someone else who brought his name up. And from various directions, almost all I ever debate is in one way or another about, or, at least, related to, predestination.

 

[makesends]

All those who hold to some form of Calvinistic or Reformed Theology reject any action by God, Father, Son or Holy Spirit, in the life of the sinner before regeneration. On the other hand I believe that the Holy Spirit is active in the life of the sinner before regeneration. In some cases it may be for very long times.

That is just one more caricature of Calvinism or Reformed Theology. And false. We believe Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. You are engaging in what I think is called false equivalence, basically the same sort of thinking that says Calvinists or the Reformed deny choice, since they believe in predestination.

 

[JIM]

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— Eph 2.

How have we been saved? By grace Jim.

Through what? Faith.

It's not from ourselves, it's a gift. Yes, Jim, faith is a gift. It's by grace that we receive this gift.

No Carbon, faith in that verse is not called a gift.

Greek grammar does not permit faith being the gift. First, there is no "it is"; that has been inserted in the English translation. That is shown in the KJV translation where the "it is" is italicized. Literally, the Greek is "and this not of you--of God the gift". Second, the "this" in the Greek, "καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, Θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·" , i.e., τοῦτο, is in the neuter gender. Both grace and faith are feminine gender. Thus "this" cannot reference back to either grace or faith. The only grammatically acceptable antecedent is the whole preceding phrase, "For by grace you have been saved through faith". The gift of God is the salvation by grace through faith.