Free Will ~yet again.

[Ritajanice]

This doesn’t represent what I wrote. I said, I believe the Lord preserved my life before He regenerated me.

Mine too...of course I see it in retrospect ....the amount of times I nearly died...I nearly died having my last child, advised never to have any more children.

Even then as a non believer...in my human understanding I believe it wasn’t my time, I remember going down a tunnel , seeing figures dressed in black, discussing with each other, it’s not time, the most strangest of experience.

Of course it could have been to do with the anaesthetic...having an emergency section LOL, I’ve never forgotten that experience though.

 

[Alive]

And I am sorry, but I still don't understand what that even means. There has never been anyone, so stated, that had died before being regenerated.

I am sorry you don’t. My words were chosen carefully to communicate my intent.

 

[Arial]

Calvinism asserts that one cannot even understand the truth of the Gospel before being regenerated, let alone respond to it.

It isn't Calvinism that asserts that, it is Scripture.
1 Cor 2:11-14 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man is the man who has not been regenerated. Those who have the Spirit are the ones who have been regenerated by the Spirit.

 

[JIM]

I am sorry you don’t. My words were chosen carefully to communicate my intent.

Do you know anyone, or have you heard of anyone who died before they were regenerated or before they would have been regenerated?

Are you saying there were instances when you think you would have died but didn't because God interfered, thus keeping you alive until He regenerated you?

 

[Ritajanice]

Calvinism asserts that one cannot even understand the truth of the Gospel before being regenerated, let alone respond to it.

How can you believe that Jesus ever existed..without being regenerated in your spirit by the Spirit of God?

Apart from reading about him in your own human understanding, when reading the penned word.

We know all about Jesus in our heart,...for me anyway.

 

[Alive]

Do you know anyone, or have you heard of anyone who died before they were regenerated or before they would have been regenerated?

Are you saying there were instances when you think you would have died but didn't because God interfered, thus keeping you alive until He regenerated you?

Yes…this what I am saying.

 

[Ritajanice]

Are you saying there were instances when you think you would have died but didn't because God interfered, thus keeping you alive until He regenerated you?

I believe that, now that I’m Born Again..Of course I didn’t know/ see that when I wasn’t regenerated, how could I?

As I said after becoming Born Again, looking back as a Born Again ...I nearly drowned once, how I didn’t I will never know as a non believer....as a believer now...I see God got me out of that situation...I was 17 at the time,...that’s my belief.

 

[JIM]

It isn't Calvinism that asserts that, it is Scripture.
1 Cor 2:11-14 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man is the man who has not been regenerated. Those who have the Spirit are the ones who have been regenerated by the Spirit.

If that were truly the case, then there would never be any dispute among the regeneration. The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion concerning the thoughts of God.

That is another one of those passages, the actual meaning of which, Calvinists distort in the vain attempt to support their view. That entire passage is Paul's assertion and defense of his and the other apostles' and prophets' divine inspiration. The natural man in that second chapter is simply the non divinely inspired person.

1 Corinthians chapter two is not a defense of the false doctrine of illumination.

 

[JIM]

Yes…this what I am saying.

I certainly won't argue against that. I don't know of any scriptures that would suggest such a case, but if you believe that, how could I argue against it?

 

[Arial]

I certainly do not reject that.

Throughout my life everything was being worked out by God, to bring me to Jesus.....he works in the hearts of sinners ,how else could he bring us to Jesus, he can’t indwell our heart, not until our sins are forgiven and we become Born Again by His Living Spirit.

He prepares all of his children in their heart to receive His Spirit, just as they were chosen and predestined to before the foundation of the world ..

My thoughts/ testimony and belief.

Yes and @JIM. The Bible tells us that He knew (a personal knowing, not a looking forward into time to see who would choose Him and then electing them) who He had predestined to give to Jesus before the foundation of the world. So His eye was upon us every step. Every laughter, every tear, every mistake, every misstep while we were yet in the womb forward. And every step was the path towards Jesus.

An anecdote. My brother, the first of the family to be adopted into the kingdom, had a few close calls with death before he ever met Jesus. After he had been introduced to Reformed theology and discovered that it was not he who chose God, but God who chose him, he once said to me, "I could not have been killed or died before I was saved." And it is true, though a bit caviolier. God has his preserving hand on us all the way to the goal and then on to the finish line of Rev 21.

 

[JIM]

How can you believe that Jesus ever existed..without being regenerated in your spirit by the Spirit of God?

Apart from reading about him in your own human understanding, when reading the penned word.

God produced a very, very convincing argument in the 39 books in the OT and the 27 books in the NT. I believe that God is quite capable of conversing and communicating intelligently with the unregenerated. To believe otherwise is to limit God.

We know all about Jesus in our heart,...for me anyway.

There billions for which that is just not true. If that were true, then the need for Paul and the rest of the apostles to travel the known world to spread the gospel message.

Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

The spread of the gospel message is to be accomplished by man not by the Holy Spirit directly. Baptizing and Teaching is not a command for what are to be done to disciples.; rather it is how Jesus has directed that disciples are to be made (Matt 28:10-20).

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

 

[Ritajanice]

God produced a very, very convincing argument in the 39 books in the OT and the 27 books in the NT. I believe that God is quite capable of conversing and communicating intelligently with the unregenerated.

He doesn’t communicate with our intelligence..he communicates with our spirit, via His Living Holy Spirit.... @JIM ?

God is a Spirit....

To believe otherwise is to limit God.

Is He, yet his word says without the Spirit we are none of His.

God is Spirit, therefore can only communicate with us in our spirit....

How would you know how to call on the name of the Lord?

Plus his word says we must be Born Again ..you put the horse before the cart..if you are saved @JIM then you must be Born Again.
How could you even know that Jesus existed without being regenerated?

We aren’t saved from eternal damnation not until we are regenerated/ Born Again..

You cannot have a spirit relationship with God not until your spirit is Born Again.

There billions for which that is just not true. If that were true, then the need for Paul and the rest of the apostles to travel the known world to spread the gospel message.

Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

The spread of the gospel message is to be accomplished by man not by the Holy Spirit directly. Baptizing and Teaching is not a command for what are to be done to disciples.; rather it is how Jesus has directed that disciples are to be made (Matt 28:10-20).

1 Corinthians 12:3New King James Version (NKJV) Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Romans 8​

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King James Version​

​

​

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[JIM]

Yes and @JIM. The Bible tells us that He knew (a personal knowing, not a looking forward into time to see who would choose Him and then electing them) who He had predestined to give to Jesus before the foundation of the world. So His eye was upon us every step. Every laughter, every tear, every mistake, every misstep while we were yet in the womb forward. And every step was the path towards Jesus.

No it does not say he knew those He predestined; rathe, it says He predestined those He foreknew (Rom 8:29): "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined... just the opposite of what you claimed.

An anecdote. My brother, the first of the family to be adopted into the kingdom, had a few close calls with death before he ever met Jesus. After he had been introduced to Reformed theology and discovered that it was not he who chose God, but God who chose him, he once said to me, "I could not have been killed or died before I was saved." And it is true, though a bit caviolier. God has his preserving hand on us all the way to the goal and then on to the finish line of Rev 21.

Yes, an anecdote, whether true or not.

 

[Carbon]

This doesn’t represent what I wrote. I said, I believe the Lord preserved my life before He regenerated me.

I can relate. He saved my life 3 times that I am aware of.

 

[Ritajanice]

No it does not say he knew those He predestined; rathe, it says He predestined those He foreknew (Rom 8:29): "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined... just the opposite of what you claimed.

Ephesians 1:4-6

King James Version

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4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

 

[Carbon]

And I am sorry, but I still don't understand what that even means. There has never been anyone, so stated, that had died before being regenerated.

Maybe it would help if you would tell us what church/system you attend or adhere to?

 

[JIM]

He doesn’t communicate with our intelligence..he communicates with our spirit, via His Living Holy Spirit.... @JIM ?

I am sorry, but that is just not true.

God is a Spirit....

Is He, yet his word says without the Spirit we are none of His.

Well, yes. Once we have been born again and have received the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit, we are His.

God is Spirit, therefore can only communicate with us in our spirit....

Where in the world did you get that bit of nonsense. Did God communicate with Adam, did He communicate with Cain, did He communicate with Noah, did He communicate with..........?

How would you know how to call on the name of the Lord?

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Plus his word says we must be Born Again ..you put the horse before the cart..if you are saved @JIM then you must be Born Again.

To be saved is to be born again. To be born again is to be saved. Being born again and being saved is experienced at one and the same instant in time.

How could you even know that Jesus existed without being regenerated?

God spent about 2500 years producing a book that tells you everything you need to know about Jesus. There are many, many, many people who know about Jesus who have not been regenerated, probably more of those than who have been regenerated.

 

[Carbon]

Calvinism asserts that one cannot even understand the truth of the Gospel before being regenerated, let alone respond to it.

No, Calvinism does not. When someone hears that they are a sinner, hell-bound, and the only way out is through believing in Jesus. If someone does not understand this either they are hearing it is a language not their own or they are mentally challenged.

But understanding that is not what saves.

What Calvin actually said is this: "The assent which we give to the Divine word, as I have partly suggested before, and shall again more largely repeat, is from the heart rather than the head, and from the affections rather than understanding.

Faith includes the three elements of knowledge, assent and trust, the stress usually being laid on trust.

C Hodge said, "The faith which is required for salvation, is an act of the whole soul, of the understanding, of the heart, and of the will."

 

[JIM]

Maybe it would help if you would tell us what church/system you attend or adhere to?

New Testament Christianity.

 

[Carbon]

New Testament Christianity.

Fair enough.

I find it amazing that so many are afraid to say which church they attend. I wonder if they are ashamed?