Free Will ~yet again.

[Ritajanice]

As best as we can.

YOU WERE selected for a purpose. Of that I have zero doubts. You had an experience that most people never do. You share something in common with Jeremiah and others from the Holy book that were "selected"

Do you doubt the sincerity of the young pastors and clergy when they take their vows after seminary and become ordained ministers?

Or even those young priests who swear their vow of chastity?

How many will tell you that they "got the calling" and truly believed that they were all about gods work only to be caught up years and decades later in alcoholism, and even affairs. They did not set out to be this way. But it happened. And these would have told you... perhaps still believe they were also born again.

I love you as my sister in Christ.

I love you as my friend.

Your testimony is beyond comprehension to some and magnificently wonderful to others who wish they had shared what you did.

Your ability and witnessing so great but you need to understand that somewhere deep within you is that free will spark that
Adam had... at one time. He made a choice to follow his wife. You have made a choice... your choice.... every time you say
as you did below

"but, it was the hardest journey of my life to get to the place I’m at today...I couldn’t have done it without the Holy Spirit, who keeps me on that narrow path."

You did not start out ready to obey.... did you.

You say it was "hardest journey of my life to get to the place I’m at today"

That , my friend, is what I call free will. If you had the spiritual born again experience and had difficulties in your growth.... that was because the free will was making it hard for you to do what your heart wanted.

Didn't Jesus tell us...in John 14:16-17

“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you."

That Spirit of truth.... is the Holy Spirit.

Why, if there was a danger that they might fall away would this need to be done? Because they all were born with free will.

He guides each of us and when we falter in our growth... be it early on or later.... It is He who gets us back on that straight and narrow.

And with that I shall say May the Lord bless you and keep you...

( at the risk of many who might come along and say now woman has a right to bless) (I thought about that and it was the Holy Spirit that gave the OK)

​

Very well explained Rella..I understand a lot of what you posted and it certainly made sense to my spirit....

You are definitely right about the obedience part, I’ve had to learn to be obedient to God..I’m so happy that you explained it so well.

Any questions I will be back, as I keep reading your post over and over...it makes so much sense.

 

[makesends]

What the will isn't:

It isn't a visible part of us made up of matter.

It is not autonomous---that is, something that acts independently of anything else.

What the will is cannot be described. It can only be described as related to our actions.

It might be said to be the thing that produces the actions, or perhaps the actions themselves.

No action or choice is made without some motivation that moves it one way or the other. IOW the will does not act of its own free will.

The will is not free.

People simply confuse the fact that we make choices and act upon those choices, with our will being free. In soteriology free will is used to express the doctrine that man's will is free to either accept or reject Christ. Man's ability to freely make choices now becomes the lynch pin to deny the clear Scriptural teaching of God's choice in election, and their way of explaining what not all people are saved.

The will is not free to choose Christ. It needs to be set free. The reason it is not free to choose Christ is because in the fall Adam became a sinner and we are all like our Father---we are sinners. We are free to not always sin but we are not free to never, ever sin. We will sin. And we cannot change that by an act of our will. And we cannot atone for our past or present sins by willing anything. We have to be born again from above, and then we joyously believe and choose Christ.

This by @Arial is a well thought out piece. And it is clear thinking.

One might consider "will" to be a human word to describe a function, and use it to explain why a person acts or chooses or desires, but it is not even itself quite a thing, unless, at the most, among the characteristics of the Creator. Our dealings with such words assume substance to something that is only descriptive of what we see happening; it is a crutch to help us think.

I'm not saying it isn't a valid word or concept, but that when we get carried away with definitions and uses of it, we are only strengthening or making more rigid a scaffolding by which to build, and not working on the building itself.

What Ariel has said here, and some of what all the others have contributed, may help us to better describe or understand what we are really trying to get at —whether we can act independent of God's causation— but in understanding what we are pursuing, I think we need to start dealing with the question of independence and autonomy, without giving substance to the notion of "will".

It's a bit like how I see political arguments. One side lays out the groundwork and the other side argues against it, but the one side has already won because the other side is using their terminology as though it was valid.

 

[makesends]

Free will as it relates to our relationship with God is simply the ability to choose whether to obey God or not. The idea that God would set down rules and regulations, i.e., God's law, and then not give the ability to understand them and not give the ability to decide whether or not to obey them is an indignity to God.

On the contrary, it is only a hard pill for human dignity to swallow. God has every reason to make a just demand of perfection, because he is perfectly pure. That we are builf incapable of obeying it demonstrates the mercy and grace of God in that we are in total dependence on him for accomplishing what he demands. WE CANNOT DO IT, OF OURSELVES. And there is the need the Gospel resolves.

The whole controversy about free will is the result of Calvin's and Reformed Theology's assertion of Total Depravity. If in fact God gave us the ability to understand His law and the ability choose whether or not to obey His law, then Total Depravity is false at the very outset and the soteriology of Reformed Theology is in total error.

The assumption of free will (as defined by Pelagians and other self-determinists) is why there was a need for the thoughts the Reformation brought about. They were and are in error, to consider themselves as possessing some dignity as mere humans.

 

[Arial]

Free will as it relates to our relationship with God is simply the ability to choose whether to obey God or not. The idea that God would set down rules and regulations, i.e., God's law, and then not give the ability to understand them and not give the ability to decide whether or not to obey them is an indignity to God.

To that I ask----if we could why would we need a redeemer who did?

We were created very good and in the image and likeness of our Creator. What does it mean that we bear His image and likeness? (I am asking what you think that means, so I know the footing you are standing on.) It all starts with the creation of the world and all that is in it, including mankind. It is from that premise that we discover what the condition of mankind is and its relationship to God. It is from that premise that we uncover the doctrine in total depravity. If we don't get that right, we really have no foundation for anything that follows concerning our will.

The whole controversy about free will is the result of Calvin's and Reformed Theology's assertion of Total Depravity. If in fact God gave us the ability to understand His law and the ability choose whether or not to obey His law, then Total Depravity is false at the very outset and the soteriology of Reformed Theology is in total error.

You stated your conclusion without ever bothering to present a case.

The human will is not an issue in the doctrine of total depravity. It is not what it is talking about or dealing with. That controversy is a product of those who disagree with it. It need never have been brought into the ancient debates. It is a way to be against something, that is not a part of the something. The entire doctrine of total depravity could be given without once using the word "will" regarding humanity, had the other side not inserted it. It had to be addressed, and still has to be, in the debate because the "other side" has it as their only defense against it.

 

[JIM]

All that I explained is biblical.

There is not one thing in the Bible about you receiving divine revelation.

 

[JIM]

How else can one be Born Again..if not by the Living Holy Spirit?...do you understand that Gods Spirit is Alive and Active in us?

I understand the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. That has nothing to do with receiving divine revelation.

 

[Ritajanice]

There is not one thing in the Bible about you receiving divine revelation.

Of course there is.

How do we become Born Of The Spirit, if not by the Spirit testifying with our spirit that we are Gods children.

That’s by divine revelation..just as Gods word says.

How are you Born Of The Spirit ,if not by divine revelation?

Spirit gives birth to spirit..explain how that is done if not by divine revelation?

 

[Ritajanice]

I understand the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. That has nothing to do with receiving divine revelation.

Of course it has..how was your spirit Born Again?..if not by divine revelation?

Only after the rebirth did I go and buy a Bible and there it was exactly how the Spirit revealed himself to my heart/ spirit...

The Holy Spirit is the one who testifies Gods truth to our heart/ spirit, then the penned word backs that divine revelation to our spirit up...

Please explain?

 

[JIM]

@JIM

Ritajanice WAS picked by God. If you read enough of her postings you will see she tells the story over a number of threads.

I have no doubt in my mind she was. Would that we all be like she..........

But she has little understanding on things like free will, which to my mind is totally agreeable with being truly selected.

I don't comment on whether or not she has been born again. But I am fully convinced that if she has been born again, she really hasn't a clue about how or when it all came about.

 

[Ritajanice]

I don't comment on whether or not she has been born again. But I am fully convinced that if she has been born again, she really hasn't a clue about how or when it all came about.

LOL...I’ve posted scripture on how I became Born Again ..nearly 33 yrs ago..it came by divine revelation..just as Gods word says.

What does Born Of God’s seed mean to you?

 

[JIM]

On the contrary, it is only a hard pill for human dignity to swallow. God has every reason to make a just demand of perfection, because he is perfectly pure. That we are builf incapable of obeying it demonstrates the mercy and grace of God in that we are in total dependence on him for accomplishing what he demands. WE CANNOT DO IT, OF OURSELVES. And there is the need the Gospel resolves.

But we are not incapable of obeying God's law. It only is that we have not obeyed it perfectly. I have obeyed much of God's law. I have not murdered anyone. I have honored my mother and father and still do even though they died many years ago. But even more than that, even having been born again does not mean that will will perfectly obey. The gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit certainly helps in that regard, but He does not solve that problem completely.

The assumption of free will (as defined by Pelagians and other self-determinists) is why there was a need for the thoughts the Reformation brought about. They were and are in error, to consider themselves as possessing some dignity as mere humans.

It wasn't a problem of free will that brought about the reformation.

 

[JIM]

To that I ask----if we could why would we need a redeemer who did?

If any did perfectly obey God's laws he indeed would not need a redeemer who did. Any who did perfectly obey God's laws would, by God's own definition, not have sinned.

We were created very good and in the image and likeness of our Creator. What does it mean that we bear His image and likeness? (I am asking what you think that means, so I know the footing you are standing on.) It all starts with the creation of the world and all that is in it, including mankind. It is from that premise that we discover what the condition of mankind is and its relationship to God. It is from that premise that we uncover the doctrine in total depravity. If we don't get that right, we really have no foundation for anything that follows concerning our will.

We were created with the ability to choose to obey or not. Adam and Eve were created with that ability, obviously. Adam and Eve chose to not obey. That is why they sinned. They chose to. We are not one wit different in that regard. We have been given the ability to choose whether to obey or not. That we do not obey perfectly is universal. And so, as Paul says in Romans 5, "all have sinned".

The human will is not an issue in the doctrine of total depravity.

Of course it is and worse. It declares that, as born, no one even wants to obey no matter what.

It is not what it is talking about or dealing with. That controversy is a product of those who disagree with it. It need never have been brought into the ancient debates. It is a way to be against something, that is not a part of the something. The entire doctrine of total depravity could be given without once using the word "will" regarding humanity, had the other side not inserted it. It had to be addressed, and still has to be, in the debate because the "other side" has it as their only defense against it.

Nah, actually that isn't even the best defense against that false doctrine.

 

[JIM]

Of course there is.

How do we become Born Of The Spirit, if not by the Spirit testifying with our spirit that we are Gods children.

That’s by divine revelation..just as Gods word says.

How are you Born Of The Spirit ,if not by divine revelation?

Spirit gives birth to spirit..explain how that is done if not by divine revelation?

I am beginning to think you don't know the meaning of divine revelation. We are born again by divine action, the action of God. That is not divine revelation.

 

[Ritajanice]

I am beginning to think you don't know the meaning of divine revelation. We are born again by divine action, the action of God. That is not divine revelation.

Who reveals himself to our heart/ spirit?

Action, what action?

God says we are Born Of The Spirit..not by action @JIM .

 

[Arial]

I understand the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. That has nothing to do with receiving divine revelation.

Maybe you should ask what @Ritajanice means by divine revelation and not assume that she means the same as you. We only know anything about God because He reveals Himself to us. And no one can say how God reveals Himself to another unless they are told---and it can be a very hard thing to articulate, and sometimes is so private as to be between the person and God. But it is an inner conviction. The word itself is foolishness to the the unregenerate man, without the power of God opening the eyes of understanding. (See Jesus' reason for speaking in parables.) God can regenerate us and then lead us to His word, or He can regenerate us by leading us to His word, where we hear and believe. It is up to Him.

 

[Ritajanice]

Maybe you should ask what @Ritajanice means by divine revelation and not assume that she means the same as you. We only know anything about God because He reveals Himself to us. And no one can say how God reveals Himself to another unless they are told---and it can be a very hard thing to articulate, and sometimes is so private as to be between the person and God. But it is an inner conviction.

Very true @Arial spot on...Amen!

The word itself is foolishness to the the unregenerate man, without the power of God opening the eyes of understanding. (See Jesus' reason for speaking in parables.) God can regenerate us and then lead us to His word, or He can regenerate us by leading us to His word, where we hear and believe. It is up to Him.

I’ve already explained it to him.

Born of Gods seed...what’s that if it’s not by divine revelation..

The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children...what’s that if it’s not by divine revelation...I don’t think he understands what I’m saying Ariel to be honest.

Being Born Again is spiritually discerned, the natural man has no understanding of this.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

I think Calvin's thoughts on free will need to be looked at so that one can understand that predestined believing people do not arbitrarily say free will is out the door. (The entire link is a good read)

Once again, I do not understand Rella’s thesis statement.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is dealing with one thing and is the first letter in the acronym that stands for the doctrines of grace. Though the T has been the source of much debate dealing with the freedom of the human will, doing so loses sight of the teaching itself. It is not concerned with whether the will is free or not, but with the condition of mankind that makes the grace of God necessary for salvation.

That’s a mouthful. While I don’t know any Cslvinists or fully understand TULIP, it seems to me that semantics turns off many a casual observer.

‘Total Depravity‘ is an esoteric term, which has a meaning outside common understanding of words. Surely, man cannot be too bad with 9 B people, with greater material wealth than before where obesity, rather than starvations, troubles many countries. But this is not how Calvinists use the term, is it?

 

[JIM]

Who reveals himself to our heart/ spirit?

Action, what action?

God says we are Born Of The Spirit..not by action @JIM .

Born of the Spirit means that God, the Holy Spirit, is the agent giving rebirth to the spirit. Actually, at birth (or before in conception) the spirit that we receive is from God. In that, we are born of the Spirit. When we sin, the spirit is damaged. It needs to be repaired, it needs to be regenerated, it needs to be reborn, it needs to be born again, it needs to be born from above. Jesus says that we must be born again (born from above); He says we must be born again of water and Spirit. When the spirit is damaged by the sin that we commit, it is called being dead in trespasses and sins. Being born again is being made alive again (Eph 2:5 Rom 6:4; Col 2:13 etc. etc.).

 

[JIM]

Maybe you should ask what @Ritajanice means by divine revelation and not assume that she means the same as you.

I know she doesn't mean the same as me. And she is wrong. There are two basic means of divine revelation. There is a general revelation that testifies to God the creator in His creation. That really only establishes that there is a creator. There is nothing in general revelation that testifies to God the ruler or God the redeemer. We receive that from the special revelation that testifies to God through His written word. That revelation comes to us through very special and very limited individuals who through the power of the Holy Spirit has produced the Bible.

 

[Ritajanice]

Born of the Spirit means that God, the Holy Spirit, is the agent giving rebirth to the spirit. Actually, at birth (or before in conception) the spirit that we receive is from God. In that, we are born of the Spirit. When we sin, the spirit is damaged. It needs to be repaired, it needs to be regenerated, it needs to be reborn, it needs to be born again, it needs to be born from above. Jesus says that we must be born again (born from above); He says we must be born again of water and Spirit. When the spirit is damaged by the sin that we commit, it is called being dead in trespasses and sins. Being born again is being made alive again (Eph 2:5 Rom 6:4; Col 2:13 etc. etc.).

You didn’t answer my questions.

Spirit gives birth to spirit/ Born Of God’s seed/ Born Of The Spirit...that is by divine revelation...The Living Holy Spirit witnessing that truth to our spirit.

The spirit birth is a Living birth..it’s not something you can read into being.