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Free Will ~yet again.

Free will is the idea that humans have the ability to make their own choices and determine their own fates. Is a person's will free, and is not shaped by powers outside of their own control.

Britannica definition:
free will, in philosophy and science, the supposed power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or state of the universe.

From one of the psychology papers is this snippet. (far to long to copy here)
A conceptual distinction between first-order and second-order willing may be helpful here. While we desire many things (first-order willing), through a meta-level of desire (the desire to desire) we can self-regulate what we actually want to do (second-order willing). There is a reflection stage between the stimulus (an upcoming urge) and the response which creates an internal locus of control. In this way, we are more or less free to decide upon the manifold motivations at the moment of deciding what to do.

Wiki:
Free will is the capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action.[1]

Free will is closely linked to the concepts of moral responsibility, praise, culpability, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen. It is also connected with the concepts of advice, persuasion, deliberation, and prohibition. Traditionally, only actions that are freely willed are seen as deserving credit or blame. Whether free will exists, what it is and the implications of whether it exists or not constitute some of the longest running debates of philosophy. Some conceive of free will as the ability to act beyond the limits of external influences or wishes.

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
The term “free will” has emerged over the past two millennia as the canonical designator for a significant kind of control over one’s actions. Questions concerning the nature and existence of this kind of control (e.g., does it require and do we have the freedom to do otherwise or the power of self-determination?), and what its true significance is (is it necessary for moral responsibility or human dignity?) have been taken up in every period of Western philosophy and by many of the most important philosophical figures, such as Plato, Aristotle, Augustine, Aquinas, Descartes, and Kant. (We cannot undertake here a review of related discussions in other philosophical traditions.

Fascinating read....https://philosophyterms.com/free-will/

Compatibilism versus Incompatibilism: is free will compatible with determinism?

Incompatibilists — The Origination Argument: To have free will means to be the root cause of one’s own actions. If determinism is true, then our choices are caused by events in the past over which we have no control. Therefore, free will and determinism are incompatible.

Compatibilists – “the ability to do otherwise”: to have free will only means that one could always do otherwise than one did, and would do otherwise if it seemed like the best way to reach one’s goals. This means that something in one’s psychology or world must be different to cause a different decision. This definition of free will seems to side-step determinism.

Incompatibilists disagree, arguing that free will depends on having multiple possible futures to choose from, all consistent with the one past – that free choice must add something not already given by the past.

Incompatibilists – The Consequence Argument: To have free will means to have some control over our actions and their consequences. If determinism is true then we have no control over past, present, or future events; they are all necessary consequences of what came before.


Most of us are certain that we have free will, though what exactly this amounts to is much less certain. According to David Hume, the question of the nature of free will is “the most contentious question of metaphysics.” If this is correct, then figuring out what free will is will be no small task indeed. Minimally, to say that an agent has free will is to say that the agent has the capacity to choose his or her course of action. But animals seem to satisfy this criterion, and we typically think that only persons, and not animals, have free will. Let us then understand free will as the capacity unique to persons that allows them to control their actions

Stanford:
"Free Will" is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives.

I am done, too View attachment 866

You wont understand, as you cannot understand... and therefore are unable to answer my questions.

I have answered more of of yours, but my answers fall on deaf ears, apparently.

Be blesses
I am just wondering why and when "free" became attached to "will" in the first place. So far all that was given as a definition of free will is no more than a definition of a will. Something no one denies that we have.

Interestingly in discussing God's will, it is never given as defined free or not free. Not in discussions and not in Scripture. And neither is the will of man ever called free in Scripture. It is philosophical speculations brought to bear on scripture imo. It is very distracting to the discussion especially on the doctrines of grace. I shall in due time, attempt to define and post the doctrine in Total Depravity without once using the word will in connection with humanity.
 
I am just wondering why and when "free" became attached to "will" in the first place. So far all that was given as a definition of free will is no more than a definition of a will. Something no one denies that we have.

Interestingly in discussing God's will, it is never given as defined free or not free. Not in discussions and not in Scripture. And neither is the will of man ever called free in Scripture. It is philosophical speculations brought to bear on scripture imo. It is very distracting to the discussion especially on the doctrines of grace. I shall in due time, attempt to define and post the doctrine in Total Depravity without once using the word will in connection with humanity.
Its easy.
;-)
Adam is dead in sin.
 
I am just wondering why and when "free" became attached to "will" in the first place. So far all that was given as a definition of free will is no more than a definition of a will. Something no one denies that we have.

Interestingly in discussing God's will, it is never given as defined free or not free. Not in discussions and not in Scripture. And neither is the will of man ever called free in Scripture. It is philosophical speculations brought to bear on scripture imo. It is very distracting to the discussion especially on the doctrines of grace. I shall in due time, attempt to define and post the doctrine in Total Depravity without once using the word will in connection with humanity.
Now wouldn't it be silly to just say will?

What would that even mean. That it was my will to sew wild oats when I was young and I was given a pass by the heavenly father until I came to my senses.

Or it was Eves will to obey the serpent and eat that fruit? And Adams will to follow along?

It needs the that description , dont you think?

Substitue plain will in the following

Some use the term "free will" in a looser sense to reflect that conscious decisions play a role in the outcomes of a person's life—even if those are shaped by innate dispositions

Some use the term " will" in a looser sense to reflect that conscious decisions play a role in the outcomes of a person's life—even if those are shaped by innate dispositions

It loses.... and then how would you contrast what the will of the father is?

It certainly is not for us to sin... but He has given us an out.... But that is not the subject for here....
 
Now wouldn't it be silly to just say will?
Why? What is a will?
What would that even mean. That it was my will to sew wild oats when I was young and I was given a pass by the heavenly father until I came to my senses.
What does one thing in that sentence have to do with the other thing in that sentence?
Or it was Eves will to obey the serpent and eat that fruit? And Adams will to follow along?
I guess we could say it the same way the Bible did---without once mentioning the word will free or otherwise.
It needs the that description , dont you think?
God didn't think so. Moses didn't think so.
Some use the term "free will" in a looser sense to reflect that conscious decisions play a role in the outcomes of a person's life—even if those are shaped by innate dispositions

Some use the term " will" in a looser sense to reflect that conscious decisions play a role in the outcomes of a person's life—even if those are shaped by innate dispositions
Uhh Rella. That is because they are making an attempt to define and express a concept ---that of free will. Of course in that situation the term free will is used so we will know what is being discussed. That is your first example.

The second one would be describing "will".
It loses.... and then how would you contrast what the will of the father is?
Why would you need to contrast what the will of the Father is with anything other than our will. See---no need for the free in there. The very definitions of free will undercut their own definitions. All of them show there is nothing free about our will at all. The argument is really about choices, not freedom of will.
 
Free will is the idea that humans have the ability to make their own choices and determine their own fates. Is a person's will free, and is not shaped by powers outside of their own control.
By your definition we don't have "free will" ... or you can tell us at what point you determined you would be male for example instead of female ... or ... when did you decide to have a "sin nature"? I could go on, but you should get the point as you have a 139 IQ.

Premise1: you did not determine your sex
Premise2: you did not chose to have a "sin nature"
Conclusion: Your definition of "free will" (will free, and is not shaped by powers outside of their own control) contradicts empirical facts.
 
So far all that was given as a definition of free will is no more than a definition of a will.
Amen .... if I had a nickel for every time someone talked about "free will" but didn't have a comprehensive answer I would have at least 50 cents. *giggle*

The very definitions of free will undercut their own definitions. All of them show there is nothing free about our will at all. The argument is really about choices, not freedom of will.
Amen.
 
Amen .... if I had a nickel for every time someone talked about "free will" but didn't have a comprehensive answer I would have at least 50 cents. *giggle*


Amen.
Good to know I am not alone in my assessment. ;)
 
That is the basis of faith (Rom 10:17).
Rom 10:17 "...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." —that is not mere information. Weak argument, there. Or do you think that is all the Gospel is?
 
Rom 10:17 "...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." —that is not mere information. Weak argument, there. Or do you think that is all the Gospel is?
You only know what the Gospel is through hearing (or reading) the word of God.
 
You only know what the Gospel is through hearing (or reading) the word of God.
Well that’s how you hear, the gospel.
 
If I understand your meaning, I disagree. But perhaps I don't understand your meaning.
Well you hear it when it’s presented verbally. Do you agree with that?
 
Well you hear it when it’s presented verbally. Do you agree with that?
If you include God's written word as being presented verbally, then yes, I agree. But I think you meant something further in your reply #210.
 
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Well you hear it when it’s presented verbally. Do you agree with that?

I would think we hear it as it mightyfuly works in us to both hear and empower dying mankind to do..Philippians 2:13-14)

The same kind of food the disciples knew not of at first. . again both to hear and do

Some murmur and say what about me is not some of the work according to dying flesh and blood ?
 
I would think we hear it as it mightyfuly works in us to both hear and empower dying mankind to do..Philippians 2:13-14)

The same kind of food the disciples knew not of at first. . again both to hear and do

Some murmur and say what about me is not some of the work according to dying flesh and blood ?
Is English your first language?
 
I would think we hear it as it mightyfuly works in us to both hear and empower dying mankind to do..Philippians 2:13-14)

The same kind of food the disciples knew not of at first. . again both to hear and do

Some murmur and say what about me is not some of the work according to dying flesh and blood ?
There is hearing and there is doing. They are not the same. One can hear and understand completely the gospel message and yet refuse to accept it and obey it.
 
If you include God's written word as being presented verbally, then yes, I agree. But I think you meant something further in your reply #210.
I meant what I asked, nothing more
 
I would think we hear it as it mightyfuly works in us to both hear and empower dying mankind to do..Philippians 2:13-14)

The same kind of food the disciples knew not of at first. . again both to hear and do

Some murmur and say what about me is not some of the work according to dying flesh and blood ?
Well that’s what I’m asking. I’m glad you recognize a simple question. Thanks
 
There is hearing and there is doing. They are not the same. One can hear and understand completely the gospel message and yet refuse to accept it and obey it.
Is that your answer?
 
Amen .... if I had a nickel for every time someone talked about "free will" but didn't have a comprehensive answer I would have at least 50 cents. *giggle*


Amen.
Good to know I am not alone in my assessment. ;)
Ya want me to air my dirty laundry? Be careful, I just might.

Shall I start when in grade school , probably aged 10 to 12... and 3 of us were playing, and one got put on the outs.... as will happen when kids play. Except this one time we dipped a cup into gutter water that had had pigeon poison in it a long while back and then filled it with water and gave to this one to drink.

Nothing happened of course.

But we did not know it wouldn't.

And you dont call that free will?

Or do you want the more salacious aspects of temptations in my life. Of course... I forget... none of you ever had any of that.
 
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