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Free will. What is it?

Yes. Salvation is a gift. Eternal life is a gift.

if not for these gifts. I would have nothing to have faith in, hence by proxy faith is a gift.
Neither in the Bible nor logic.
But it is accomplished in vs 10 - 18
Faith is not "accomplished" by any human action.
It is a direct spiritual gift of God.
Faith is exercised, practiced in human action, but faith is not the result of nor accomplished in human action.
 
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So you can call me a fool. but i have to respond biblical.
Looking for opportunities to be offended?

Are you saying that you are that "fool who would reject that which God in his grace has given him a longing for?"

I had no idea.
 
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Neither in the Bible nor logic.
sorry if you feel this way, but it is perfectly logical
Faith is not "accomplished" by any human action.
I never said it was
It is a direct spiritual gift of God.
Faith is a trust in someone. it is not a religious thing, or something special. you either have faith in someone or you do not.

Now some who are born again in Gods family. have a special gift of faith. that is a spiritual gift.
Faith is exercised, practiced in human action, by faith is not the result of nor accomplished in human action.
The action is calling on the name of the lord to be saved.

Anyone can do it.
 
sorry if you feel this way, but it is perfectly logical

I never said it was

Faith is a trust in someone. it is not a religious thing, or something special. you either have faith in someone or you do not.

Now some who are born again in Gods family. have a special gift of faith. that is a spiritual gift.
The spiritual gift of faith is faith in Jesus Christ, which faith is the only means of salvation from God's condemnation at the final judgment.
The action is calling on the name of the lord to be saved.
Anyone can do it.
However, Jesus says no one can come to him ("call on the name of the Lord") unless the Father enables him (Jn 6:65), and
that all whom the Father gives to him will come to him (Jn 6:37).
All do not come to Jesus because all are not given to Jesus by the Father.
 
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lol.. do you ever take accountability?
I do for that for which I am accountable.

Are you saying that you are that generic "fool who would reject that which God is his grace has given him a longing for?"
 
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The spiritual gift of faith is faith in Jesus Christ, which faith is the only means of salvation from God's condemnation at the final judgment.
Yes.

I never said otherwise.
However, Jesus says no one can come to him ("call on the name of the Lord") unless the Father enables him (Jn 6:65), and
that all whom the Father gives to him will come to him (Jn 6:37).
All do not come to Jesus because all are not given to Jesus by the Father.
No.

Jesus answered this question already

you do not see because you do not believe.

Jesus drew them to himself. but they did not see or believe.

they wanted fed physical food. not spiritual

they thought they were righteous already, because they were jews

Jesus wanted them to work for food which endures forever. Not food they eat and will still die
 
I give up. . .do I?

For what do you see me not taking accountability?
Ma'am, I am trying to be nice.

If you think you are ok calling people names. or talking to them the way you do. Then you need to look inside. You called me a fool..

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.
 
Yes.
I never said otherwise.
No.
It falls to you to Biblically demonstrate my error regarding Jn 6:65, 37.
Jesus answered this question already
you do not see because you do not believe.
Jesus drew them to himself. but they did not see or believe.
they wanted fed physical food. not spiritual
they thought they were righteous already, because they were jews
Jesus wanted them to work for food which endures forever. Not food they eat and will still die
Agreed. . .it's not about Jesus drawing, it's about them coming and the Father giving.
 
Ma'am, I am trying to be nice.
Thank you. . .
If you think you are ok calling people names. or talking to them the way you do. Then you need to look inside. You called me a fool..
Are you saying that you are the "fool who would reject that which God is his grace has given him a longing for?"

I had no idea that description fit you.
 
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It falls to you to Biblically demonstrate my error regarding Jn 6:65, 37.

Agreed. . .it's not about Jesus drawing, it's about them coming and the Father giving.
its about them seeing and believing

John 6: 38 ;For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

both go hand in hand. You can not have one without the other. because they both are part of Gods will
 
Thank you. . .

Read it again. . .I made no personal mention of you.
it was directed to me.

it should not have been said at all.

Say you do not agree. Say you see it different. say anything else.

You may think it is foolish to believe one way. I guarantee many think you are foolish for believing the way you do.

but if we call each other fools. or everyone else fools. We will never have success in any conversation.

just stick to what you believe..

Another person saw the same thing I did (i see his post is gone now) so it is not just me.

we need to take accountability for our actions.
 
I realize that, but I assume @Hazelelponi who did agree with you does hold to the WCT. (but maybe I assume too much?)

What did I agree with the poster @Eternally-Grateful about?

So far I've noticed nothing, perhaps you misunderstood something I said. Because I don't think there's anything I would agree with him on. Not that's doctrinal. (I'm sure he's a lovely person though...)

I agreed he clarified himself. I didn't agree with his words.
 
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was directed to me.

it should not have been said at all.

Say you do not agree. Say you see it different. say anything else.

It wasn't. It was a hypothetical person being proposed who was refusing grace when offered by God.

Like no one is going to say no... That's all that was said.

Your taking things personally for no reason. We were discussing irresistible Grace if I recall.
 
Again, as I said to another person, you continue
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus
The process of making us alive, and raising us up in by Grace, it is our salvation.
Yes, but you fail to recognize or address how he made us alive? Which is what I posted those scriptures and the sequence, to do.
first. salvation, new life and being raised up is done by grace
second, it is given through faith
It is not of works (hence faith is not us saving ourself.
And we can not boast because we trusted God and received his gift of salvation.
First, new life so we can hear and believe. This new life comes with faith in what we hear---- the person and work of Jesus to save us because we believe what we hear---- the gospel. Faith is a work if one thinks it was generated from within themselves instead of given to them by God. But the "works"that save oneself, technically is the choosing to believe that is part and parcel of the "free will" belief.

"And we cannot boast because we trusted God and received his gift of salvation" is boasting if one says they were saved because they chose to accept the gift.
Again, why did you stop here. Nicodemus asked. How can this be.
Because I was doing a sequence and showing what must be done first in order for us to be saved. John 3:3 can stand alone in doing that as a quote. (Even though it is not alone for the full counsel of God tells us the same thing.)
Jesus told him. As moses lifted the serpent, so must he be lifted up that all who believe will never perish.
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." is not explaining what it means to be born again. Jesus is explaining who he is and what he came to do. So why do I need to include it in my post of sequence? Nicodemus should have understood how a man can be born again and who Jesus is, and what that means, since he was a teacher of the OT. Being born of water and the Spirit is a reference to Is 32:15; 44:3; Ez 36:25-27.

But you moved on to this set of verse before ever addressing John 3:3 and the reason I posted it. That is bad forum etiquette. From rule 2.2
When quoting or summarizing another member’s position, do so honestly, in context, and preferably with a citation to ensure that their views are represented accurately and fairly.
Just like n eph 2, our salvation, our new life, our being raised is by grace, but it is through faith (we who believe are no longer condemned)
Of course it is grace. God owes no one anything. Of course it is through faith. But that ignores that we are talking about the order of salvation. It ignores the issue of being born again and the necessity of it before anyone can believe.
Again don't stop these passages short. Both claim that this is done or completed by Grace through faith
I didn't "stop them short". I did it in the way I did as a means of emphasis of what the passage is saying in relation to what God does first in salvation and that is God who does it. Quoting the entire passage does not change that. Eph 2 tells us that no one is saved but by grace and through faith. What comes before that tells us that we were dead in trespasses and sin and we had to be made alive. It is not telling us that grace and faith made us alive, but that we have salvation by grace through faith BECAUSE he made us alive. So how does he make us alive?
And here we go in this one verse I think we see the process

1. We receive him (in faith)
2. He gives us the power to become sons of God
3. Not because we willed it, or not because we were born into it, or not because our parents willed it.
4. Because We trusted God.
This is your response to John 1:12-13 "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God,"

1. "Receive" and "believe" in that passage are the same thing. When we believe him, we receive him.
2.The passage says nothing about our power. Nothing. You have changed the scripture and read a presupposition into it. It says he gives us the RIGHT to become children of God. If we believe, we can rightly call him Father, and we are his children.
3 &4. No. The trusting comes after the person was reborn by the will of God. It is a direct connection to what Jesus said about having to be born again in order to enter the kingdom of God. That is the same as being given (by God) the right to be his children.
 
Truncated the above because of having too many characters to post.


Last night I was too sleepy to think I could reason well enough for this. Today, all day, I kept thinking how all I needed to do was to get done with the easy ones, so I could set my mind to this, but I wouldn't be surprised if I had over a hundred alerts to look at!

Maybe I can at least start on this, while I sip my tea.

You give the first of the readings according to the two definitions of contingency, with [determined conditions], i.e.
  1. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or [determined conditions] of second causes taken away, but rather established.
I would not call, 'contingency', "determined conditions", though in my take of 3.1 they certainly are determined conditions. As I see it, all things are determined. But that is not the point of the word, 'contingency', though it be determined. It, to me, is simply the logical order of causation. One thing is contingent on another, and God's ordaining does not do violence to that sequence —does not do violence to X coming to pass via causation by Y.

Now I will grant you that sounds/feels awkward, following the word 'liberty'. My view does not (yet) account for the question of liberty within the natural flow of causation. I don't know why they included it, unless your view is right, and contingency, there, only means the undetermined conditions of second causes. But, it would make me more likely to consider your view, if they had said, "liberty, or, contingency", of second causes, with the commas, because if no commas were there, all I see is tautology, which, while perhaps useful, does not lend itself to concision, which is what the authors of the WCF excelled at. (Yet, with the commas, the one word still seems redundant, unless the one is explanatory of the other, and are not separate considerations.)

WCF is not scripture, and is not to me authoritative, so I do interpret it through the filter of my assumptions, since I don't have a lot of references to other thoughts of the authors impinging upon 3.1. —that is, my assumptions concerning the way of causation, and of what little I know about the thinking of the authors, who I had assumed thought pretty much how I do. To me, it is simply logical that Omnipotent God be necessarily causal of absolutely everything that is not himself. And by that I do not mean directly causal, (though there may be hints of that nature of thing within the study of the Attribute of Immanence.) I thought that was straightforward Reformed thinking. It took you, Josh, to wake me up to the possibility that there are better Reformed theologians than myself that actually think it reasonable that Sovereign God not be causal of all details. I still don't get how they can come to that. It makes no sense to me. But, apparently there are some. Whether or not the authors of the WCF are some of them, I don't know. But I think I can understand why you think that is what they meant.

Also, I will grant that it would seem more sensible for them to say that it does not do violence to the undetermined nature of conditionality, thought that too sounds strange —violating a lack of determining? But I see no information gained in saying that God's ordaining does no violence to what is determined—it is still sure to come to pass. So, I don't know. In the end, I have to take "does not do violence to..." to mean that God does not (usually) interpose into the natural order of causation, which involves nothing undetermined, but rather that anything that comes to pass does so by his establishing it. And that word, 'establishes', necessarily implies causation. And how causation can happen apart from God determining it so, I don't know. But maybe the authors did.

What liberty there is in anything undetermined, I don't get, either, unless by 'second causes' are meant willed events. Regardless, though, it seems to me also possible that they are mollifying some protestors, to avoid conflict with them, by not being overly deterministic in their speech. That the liberty of second causes is not violated, but established, does make sense to me, though it is rather an ironic statement. I can only guess they mean that "second causes are established, thus the notion of violence against any supposed liberty or indeterminate conditions of those second causes is a bogus notion".

Now, on a different matter: You said that I see "history as a sequence of singular, linear causes and effects." I have heard the same from you before, though in different words, as I recall. I objected back then, and also now. I can only suppose that I don't know what you mean by that, because I do not see singular lines, but myriad lines, all crisscrossing one another, and so involved are they with each other that I could almost say that any one thing affects all other things (and some thinkers/ scientists have even said as much). I suppose you mean that I think that any one cause can be traced (by God, of course—not by man) back through lines of causation all the way back to First Cause, and that, I will grant. But this family tree is not just a pole. Jesus' genealogy can be traced back to Adam more than one way, and anything that comes to pass does so by myriad causes.
I appreciate all that, bro, but it should be directed to @Carbon since he's the one who was asking about our differing views of WCF 3.1...... and this thread is about what free will is, not the WCF. Despite the length of my earlier post, I was simply attempting to explain the difference we have regarding WCF 3.1.

As far as the op goes..... WCF acknowledges and asserts human volitional agency (or the ability to make decisions). Many people fail to grasp that - many on both sides of the debate, including some fellow monergists. What monergism holds to is the limits of volitional agency in general and the complete inefficacy of it regarding salvation. Human will in the sinless state is limited, not free. Human will in the sinful state is completely incapacitated when it comes to salvation. A sinner can choose the color of his next car purchase or decide between rocky road, chocolate mint chip, or butter pecan ice cream, but s/he cannot chose salvation. God must first transform the individual sinner in order for the sinner to have salvific volitional agency. Regeneration precedes faith.

And, sadly, one of the most commonly occurring mistakes in exegesis has occurred throughout this thread. Every time any Post *not just you, me, or @Eternally-Grateful, takes a verse about the pre-disobedient state and applies it to the disobedient state that is a fatal error. Every time a verse about the post-disobedient, pre-redeemed and regenerate state is used to address describe the way God made humans that, too, is an exegetically fatal mistake. The exact same error occurs every time a verse about the redeemed and regenerate (which would be the vast majority of the epistolary) is taken to apply to the unredeemed in the unregenerate sinful state. Pre-disobedient Adam is not in ned of salvation from sin. Post-disobedient Adam is a completely different Adam. Abraham was a sinner, born as a dead man who would sin, not as the pre-disobedient Adam, and Abraham was void of all the blessings and benefits of the post-Pentecost believer in Christ. Neither Adam or Abraham is representative of our comparable to any Christian in this thread. It was a HUGE ginormous mistake to employ Adam and Abraham the way they were asserted.

Free will is an oxymoron. The human will is not and never has been free. Humans have the ability to make choices, but ability is liberty, not freedom. There are, and always have been, controlling influences on every aspect of humanity, individually and collectively. Any and all doctrines of Man and doctrines of salvation that ignore (or neglect) that axiomatic fact err, and they err fatally. It is irrational not to acknowledge the limitations of God, creation, and sin on the human sinner's will and apply them correctly to the matter of salvation.

And I trust you and I do not differ there (so, relevant to this thread's topic, the matter of WCF 3.1 is minor in comparison).
 
What did I agree with the poster @Eternally-Grateful about?

So far I've noticed nothing, perhaps you misunderstood something I said. Because I don't think there's anything I would agree with him on. Not that's doctrinal. (I'm sure he's a lovely person though...)

I agreed he clarified himself. I didn't agree with his words.
In post #388 you gave a like to @Eternally-Grateful's comment, so I assumed you were in agreement. Maybe I assumed too much, sorry.
 
In post #388 you gave a like to @Eternally-Grateful's comment, so I assumed you were in agreement. Maybe I assumed too much, sorry.

Nah, it was just appreciation for the time to clarify somewhat.

I am just being nice. But it's okay, not upset. Glad we could clarify that.
 
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