Can A Person Be a Monergist and a Synergist At the Same Time? Can One Be Neither?

[Eternally-Grateful]

Even the nature of our Regeneration (not just our Sanctification) can be described as becoming IN CHRIST.

I believe this too.

But it takes walking in steps of faith to grow in Christ.

It all is of faith.. Who is our faith in? Again, is it God. or is it in self.

My faith is in God. I believe yours is too. On this we are united.

 

[makesends]

yes. we have a disagreement

Salvic faith is not some special faith as the Catholics like to put it. (a religious things as I see it) it is simple faith. Jesus said faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain

Jesus gave as an example. a type of Christ in the OT. of what happens.

The bronze serpent.

Moses told the people. If you get bit. Look to this serpent and you will live (the word of God)

Those who lived (believed) were saved those who did not. would have died.

Jesus said in the same manor, The son of man must be lifted up so whoever believes will not perish (not die) and their new life will be forever.

The word of God is no different. we are dead, if we are not rescued..

If you want to live. Look to the cross.

If not. Keep looking away

He who believes is not condemned.

He who does not believe is condemned already.

I like how the man who came to Jesus said, Lord I believe Help me with my unbelief.

Somewhere I heard you ask if I even read what you had said. Here I can't think but that you don't read, or that you ignore, where these things you are repeating here --all of them things you have said before on this site-- were answered by sound exegesis and sound doctrine and sound reason. Whenever one of us says something that counters what you posit, you usually just say something to the effect of, "that's not what I believe", or you bring up one or more of the things you said above, as though that corrects what we showed.

I like how the man says, "Lord I believe. Help my unbelief", too! That doesn't begin to prove your point that salvific faith is the same as being convinced of the trustworthiness of your wife or you chair or your car. And no, sorry, the fact that the Son of Man must be lifted up as the brass serpent was does not prove your point either. You have not shown how it does. Salvific faith is not man's response to convincing evidence.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Somewhere I heard you ask if I even read what you had said. Here I can't think but that you don't read, or that you ignore, where these things you are repeating here --all of them things you have said before on this site-- were answered by sound exegesis and sound doctrine and sound reason.

In other words.

All of them have been answered by what you BELIEVE is sound.

If it was truly sound. I would have at least given it a thought. As I believe I told another member earlier. When we give an answer to some that basically says I am right and you are wrong. and this is what the bible says, it is sound etc etc. We have shut off all forms of communication. when someone does this, they have prety much put their hand to the face of the other person. That usually does not end well..and also why I will call out people who do this. and will eventually set them aside. with no more communication

Its why I say, this is what I believe, this is what I see. I am not here to confront I came in to find common ground with brothers and sisters in Christ. in a chatroom that says Christ centered.. Christ should be our focus. Not all the extra fluff..

Whenever one of us says something that counters what you posit, you usually just say something to the effect of, "that's not what I believe", or you bring up one or more of the things you said above, as though that corrects what we showed.

Well show me where I am wrong in what I showed.

I like how the man says, "Lord I believe. Help my unbelief", too! That doesn't begin to prove your point that salvific faith is the same as being convinced of the trustworthiness of your wife or you chair or your car. And no, sorry, the fact that the Son of Man must be lifted up as the brass serpent was does not prove your point either. You have not shown how it does. Salvific faith is not man's response to convincing evidence.

Well that's too bad then

Salvic faith IS Mans response to convincing evidence through the work of God

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Those are gods words not mine

1. We hear
2. We learn the word is convincing. it is trustworthy, it is something to put my trust in\
3. The end result it faith in the person. or what the person says.


The serpent of Moses, Jesus used that example. a type of Christ. that those who looked because they trusted God would live. Those who did not because they did not believe would die.

Its the same for us

I do not make stuff up.. I know its easy for us to get to tied up in religion (I did this myself for many many years) that we make things more difficult than they are.

we make words up to make it sound more God like or whatever we are doing (again, I have done this, or followed this)

I think Paul said it best.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

People call us free gracers. easy believists. lovers of sin. thinking we can just say a prayer and we are saved no matter what. we can live in sin etc etc.

what I have learned is just as the jews did when they returned from babylon. Is they make up stuff outside the word. to make sure they do not do what caused them to fall in the first place.

Only we do it for different reasons.

1. one group accuses us of this...
2. Our response is to make up a doctrine to refute the accusations.
3. Another group accuses us of that.
4. Again, our response is to create doctrines to refute the accusations.

sadly this goes on an on and eventually we have a lot of doctrines that we keep and hold and fight to the end. But they take away from the message because it makes things so difficult. and takes away from the simplicity in christ.

a perfect example is tulip vs arminian 5 point I will focus on the 5th point

The final point, Arminian follower will say we must "persevere to the end" or we will not be saved (Ie salvation can be lost)

so the other group makes a point we WILL persevere to the end.

which came first? I am not sure. I would hope the arminian point did. and the P in tulip was a response. why?

Because we do not persevere to the end. Saying we do is like saying we keep ourself saved by persevering.

God keeps us.

here we have left the simplicity of Christ to try to respond to a counterpoint. and in the end. cause what I have seen to be the most viscous arguments and fight in chat rooms far and wide.

I am blessed that I do not see that in this chat room. and have taken steps for those who try to bring me into one of these heated debates to not respond.

I pray we can all find common ground. and not take what others say personally. knowing we will not all agree on everything

 

[makesends]

Salvic faith IS Mans response to convincing evidence through the work of God

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Those are gods words not mine

Did I indicate that they are not God's words? You think they necessarily prove your point--they do not. You think they can ONLY mean what you use them to prove. Telling me that they are God's words do nothing to that end.

1. We hear
2. We learn the word is convincing. it is trustworthy, it is something to put my trust in\
3. The end result it faith in the person. or what the person says.


The serpent of Moses, Jesus used that example. a type of Christ. that those who looked because they trusted God would live. Those who did not because they did not believe would die.

Its the same for us

I do not make stuff up.. I know its easy for us to get to tied up in religion (I did this myself for many many years) that we make things more difficult than they are.

we make words up to make it sound more God like or whatever we are doing (again, I have done this, or followed this)

I think Paul said it best.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

People call us free gracers. easy believists. lovers of sin. thinking we can just say a prayer and we are saved no matter what. we can live in sin etc etc.

what I have learned is just as the jews did when they returned from babylon. Is they make up stuff outside the word. to make sure they do not do what caused them to fall in the first place.

Only we do it for different reasons.

1. one group accuses us of this...
2. Our response is to make up a doctrine to refute the accusations.
3. Another group accuses us of that.
4. Again, our response is to create doctrines to refute the accusations.

sadly this goes on an on and eventually we have a lot of doctrines that we keep and hold and fight to the end. But they take away from the message because it makes things so difficult. and takes away from the simplicity in christ.

a perfect example is tulip vs arminian 5 point I will focus on the 5th point

The final point, Arminian follower will say we must "persevere to the end" or we will not be saved (Ie salvation can be lost)

so the other group makes a point we WILL persevere to the end.

which came first? I am not sure. I would hope the arminian point did. and the P in tulip was a response. why?

Because we do not persevere to the end. Saying we do is like saying we keep ourself saved by persevering.

God keeps us.

here we have left the simplicity of Christ to try to respond to a counterpoint. and in the end. cause what I have seen to be the most viscous arguments and fight in chat rooms far and wide.

I am blessed that I do not see that in this chat room. and have taken steps for those who try to bring me into one of these heated debates to not respond.

I pray we can all find common ground. and not take what others say personally. knowing we will not all agree on everything

I'm going to leave this alone for now. I appreciate the effort you put into this, but it does nothing for your point. I could go through demonstrating your strawmen and other fallacies even within what you post, but that would only stall the conversation and worse, miss the point that your worldview and presupposition, which you stated outright somewhere, that "God created us to serve us and love us", is an invalid, and anthropocentric, construction.

 

[ReverendRV]

Salvic faith IS Mans response to convincing evidence through the work of God

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Those are gods words not mine

1. We hear
2. We learn the word is convincing. it is trustworthy, it is something to put my trust in\
3. The end result it faith in the person. or what the person sasays.

For every Verse which says, "We CAN"; we're to presuppose Grace has appeared to make a Real difference in our lives. IE, our Ears are first Circumcised...

All Scripture is Good for Doctrine. If, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" were All Scripture; you would be right. But it's not ALL Scripture. Other Verses modify our Systematic Theology. Systematic Theology establishes that Grace always goes before, "We CAN"...

What happens when we put a Verse which says, "We CAN", before a Verse which says, "We CAN'T"? This doesn't make sense; like putting Romans 10:7 before Romans 3:11 in your Systematic Theology. But when we put a Verse which says, "We CAN'T", before a Verse which says, "We CAN"; because of Grace, this makes sense...

Why? Because Grace thwarts the, "We CAN'T ". If "We CAN" without Grace, it doesn't make sense that we would EVER need Grace at all. If you back peddle, as you usually do, and say 'Yes, we need Grace first'; why do you keep saying that We CAN, as if we don't need Grace first?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Did I indicate that they are not God's words? You think they necessarily prove your point--they do not. You think they can ONLY mean what you use them to prove. Telling me that they are God's words do nothing to that end.

It’s what I see. If you don’t. Well that is what you see

I'm going to leave this alone for now. I appreciate the effort you put into this, but it does nothing for your point. I could go through demonstrating your strawmen and other fallacies even within what you post, but that would only stall the conversation and worse, miss the point that your worldview and presupposition, which you stated outright somewhere, that "God created us to serve us and love us", is an invalid, and anthropocentric, construction.

Yeah I think it is time to stop. Instead of discussing the word or discussing what we believe you have started to accuse me of things

You are at the point you are defending yourself and not listening to

So I will move on. Discussion can not happen this way. It becomes us attacking each other and u have tried not to do this

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

For every Verse which says, "We CAN"; we're to presuppose Grace has appeared to make a Real difference in our lives. IE, our Ears are first Circumcised...

The word cuts to the heart. That’s why many do not want to hear it so I can agree

All Scripture is Good for Doctrine. If, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" were All Scripture; you would be right. But it's not ALL Scripture. Other Verses modify our Systematic Theology. Systematic Theology establishes that Grace always goes before, "We CAN"...

I do not systematic theology to tell me this. I deserve nothing. So without grace there is no can it can not there is death and an eternity in hell

What happens when we put a Verse which says, "We CAN", before a Verse which says, "We CAN'T"? This doesn't make sense; like putting Romans 10:7 before Romans 3:11 in your Systematic Theology. But when we put a Verse which says, "We CAN'T", before a Verse which says, "We CAN"; because of Grace, this makes sense...

Ok now you have e list me

Why? Because Grace thwarts the, "We CAN'T ". If "We CAN" without Grace, it doesn't make sense that we would EVER need Grace at all. If you back peddle, as you usually do, and say 'Yes, we need Grace first'; why do you keep saying that We CAN, as if we don't need Grace first?

Well good thing I do not think we can or do anything apart from grace then

 

[ReverendRV]

Well good thing I do not think we can or do anything apart from grace ththen

So, the Debate is over; right?

You'll never again say anyone can?

 

[ReverendRV]

Well good thing I do not think we can or do anything apart from grace ththen

This is only true after Grace, right?


Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Those are gods words not mine

1. We hear
2. We learn the word is convincing. it is trustworthy, it is something to put my trust in\
3. The end result is faith in the person. or what the person sasays.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

So, the Debate is over; right?

You'll never again say anyone can?

The debate would be over in your mind

I believe with God all things are possible.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

This is only true after Grace, right?


Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Those are gods words not mine

1. We hear
2. We learn the word is convincing. it is trustworthy, it is something to put my trust in\
3. The end result is faith in the person. or what the person sasays.

Grace starts the day you are born.

Again, I think people are trying to give religious meanings to words and not just take them for what they are

Grace in essence means unmerited or unearned favor.

there mere fact we are living and breathing and walking this earth is but the grace of God.

we earn nothing. not even life is ours to boast in. For God breathed into each of us the spirit of life. God holds our life in his hands. He determined when we will die, although we can act stupid and commit sins that lead to death prematurely. But the mere fact we can even do this, is by the grace of God

The mere fact we are not in hades waiting our final death is also by the grace of God. because that is where every human ever born belongs.

The mere fact we have an opportunity to be saved is by the grace of God.

NOTHING happens apart from the grace of God

 

[ReverendRV]

The debate would be over in your mind

I believe with God all things are possible.

Okay Tom...