Free will--a Calvinistic proposition?

[justbyfaith]

Support this!

I have done so and will do it again.

Fact is, if being drawn to Christ = being given to Christ, then all are given to Christ according to John 12:32.

That is Universalism and heresy.

 

[justbyfaith]

Do you have any doctrines of God at all? Where do you find anywhere in the Bible God being dependant upon His creature to do anything, or asking for their permission before He does it? Anywhere?! If you are going to make stuff up at least make it sound a little bit believable.

Romans 10:9,13, salvation is based on what the sinner does in response to being drawn to Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

No, that is your accusation as a servant of the accuser.... of the brethren. From the beginning of the last two days' posts you've been accusing posters individually and Calvinists en masse,

Use the quote feature and show where I have accused any Calvinist of anything...

Otherwise this is a baseless accusation inspired by the father of lies.

 

[justbyfaith]

Even when you say, "servant of the accuser" you leave out the important "of our brethren"!

Sorry, my bad, I wasn't thinking of every accusation that you might level against me like the one above.

Yes, he is the accuser of the brethren; and I am one of the brethren; whether you want to realize or believe in that or not.

 

[justbyfaith]

• Have you got a single bit of objectively verifiable evidence proving Calvinists teach God's choice to save is arbitrary? If so then post it.
• Have you got a single bit of objectively verifiable evidence proving Calvinism denies free will? If so, then post it.
• Have you got a single bit of objectively verifiable evidence proving Calvinists do not uniformly share core beliefs that separates us from other soteriologies? If so, then post it.
• Have you got a single bit of objectively verifiable evidence proving Calvinists are the only ones who subscribe to Total Depravity? If so, then post it.
• Have you got a single bit of objectively verifiable evidence proving Calvinism teaches the gospel is available to all? If so the post it.
• Have you got a single bit of objectively verifiable evidence proving Calvinism teaches a person goes to hell because s/he is not one of the elect? If so the post it.
• Have you got a single bit of objectively verifiable evidence proving Calvinism teaches a lack of assurance? If so, then post it.
• Have you got a single bit of objectively verifiable evidence proving Calvinism teaches people are not responsible for choosing Jesus? If so, then post it?
• Have you got a single bit of objectively verifiable evidence proving Calvinism teaches people are accountable to God? If so, then post it?
• Have you got a single bit of objectively verifiable evidence proving Calvinism distorts scripture? If so the post it.
• Have you got a single bit of objectively verifiable evidence proving Calvinism must be monolithic? If so the post it.

Some of these things, if not all, have been addressed by me or other non-Calvinists at specific points in this conversation.

It is in the record of posts.

I do not feel that I should have to do that work all over again.

I think that what I have already posted ought to stand as evidence.

 

[justbyfaith]

No, she's asking you for your input about your sources, and you've just wasted everyone's time dodging the question when a more positive, functional, contributing, and conversation-furthering alternative was possible. Just answer the question asked. Look at Post 224, too. Commentary provided but it didn't answer the questions asked! Show @justbyfaith a synergist can carry the synergist's side of the conversation well. He could benefit from your example.

More accusatory statements reminiscent of what comes from the treasure that is in your heart.

 

[justbyfaith]

You ignored the following evidence before (I know you've been busy) so I will try again ...
If people's wills are free to believe in Christ or not believe ... how come the empirical evidence shows that children tend heavily to follow the religion of their parents? Like, Muslims children rarely come to saving knowledge of Christ. How can that be true and at the same time your statement be true that God gives everyone Free Will to believe or not believe leading to salvation? Why do Muslim and atheist children not come to Christ in the same numbers as children of Christian parents?????

Source of data: https://www.pewresearch.org/religio...us-upbringing-and-current-religious-identity/

If people wills are free to believe in Christ or not believe then why are not 50% of the population saved. What is tipping the scales of FREE WILL? If the FREE WILL scale is being tipped how can you can it "FREE WILL" as something is taking away freedom.

It is not my contention that the will is free at any point wherein the person is not being drawn to Christ.

It is my contention that where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty / freedom (2 Corinthians 3:17) and that therefore when a person is being drawn to Christ, he is not forced to believe in, receive, and follow Christ; but is given a free will decision to either receive or reject Christ at that point...

I am in agreement with the concept of total depravity which states that a man cannot come to Christ apart from being drawn to Christ.

But again, being drawn does not guarantee salvation; but the person is given an opportunity to make a free will decision to either receive or reject Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

Premise 1: Faith cometh by hearing
Premise 2: Not everyone hears the gospel
Conclusion: No everyone is drawn to Christ

If some people have no chance to know Christ which is a prerequisite of salvation .... how can you say everyone has FREE WILL when it is impossible to will leading to salvation?

Already covered this...

Being drawn does not only consist of hearing the gospel about Christ...

But it can consist of being faced with the lights of creation (Romans 1) and conscience (Romans 2).

If both lights are obeyed, then a person might be faced with the light of Christ (Romans 3).

 

[justbyfaith]

Technically, John 6:44 does say that being drawn to Christ does guarantee being raised by Christ at the last day. There are other verses in that area of John 6 that equate “the will of God” and “drawn to Christ” and “believing in Christ” and “the Father giving to the Son” as all interrelated and inseparable.

There is also a resurrection unto condemnation (John 5:29, Daniel 12:2).

 

[justbyfaith]

A collection of theological doctrines from the 1500’s originating from treatises published in Latin COULD NOT POSSIBLY be based upon an English acronym (T.U.L.I.P.) created in the early 1900’s.
Please stop making such nonsensical claims. It is definitely NOT vice versa. Calvinism inspired TULIP and predates it by centuries.

Calvinism today is based in the acronym...it is defined by it, actually.

Regardless of whether Calvinism came before the acronym...

If anything is in departure from the acronym, it is said to not be Calvinism, correct?

It is my contention that the acronym is not based in the Bible, and therefore what is defined as Calvinism is also not biblically-based.

 

[justbyfaith]

How about the Aztecs; we're they drawn to Christ?

See post #248 (https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/free-will-a-calvinistic-proposition.1210/post-46039).

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

You, of course, continue to sin. Do you do so willingly, or are you forced?

Please do not waste my time with rhetorical questions. Just get to your point. For example, "Either you sin willingly, in which case [insert argument], or you sin unwillingly, in which case [insert argument]."

That is simply not true. Most unregenerates do not steal, most do not murder, etc.

Granted. But every single one of them without exception sins. Again, it is the only choice they ever make.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Until they are drawn by the Holy Spirit to Christ. At that point, they are given a motivation to receive Christ.

I said, "Those who are unregenerate never desire to be saved."

Here, your answer effectively said, "True."

Thank you.

To the reader: When he said, "Until they are drawn by the Holy Spirit to Christ," at that point he was no longer speaking of the unregenerate—which means he agreed with my statement (but couldn't bring himself to say so).

Everyone is drawn at some point (John 12:32).

Let's assume that is true. Now, explain to me how John 6:44 makes sense: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

1. If everyone is drawn, then why would he say that no one can come to him unless they are drawn?

2. If everyone is drawn, and he will raise up everyone who is drawn—not can, not might, but will—then how do you avoid universalism?

If you don't answer these two questions, I won't be the only one who notices.

Specifically, those who are called [in Romans 8:29-30] are those who have been baptized in Jesus' name according to scripture (Acts 2:38-39).

Wait. Everyone who is baptized in the name of Jesus belongs to those who are called?

Works don't save (Ephesians 2:9); faith does (Ephesians 2:8).

Different claim. Stop hopping from one foot to another. You said faith and works are mutually exclusive when it comes to salvation. They are not, as I pointed out.

And let me add to that what James said, that faith without works is dead (Jas 2:17, 26). And there is also the writer to the Hebrews who spoke of dead works (Heb 6:1). If the Bible talks about dead faith (for it is without works) and dead works (for it is without faith), then it seems fairly clear that faith and works are not mutually exclusive when it comes to salvation. As John Calvin said, "It is therefore faith alone which justifies, and yet the faith which justifies is not alone." And a couple of decades before him Martin Luther said, "As the works do not follow, it is a sure sign that there is no faith there, but only an empty thought and dream which they falsely call faith."

So, the man must be willing before he is regenerated; …

Incorrect. Please make your response correspond with that I actually said—because that was not it.

Therefore, Calvinism is to a very great extent based on the acronym TULIP.

Not "to a very great extent," but rather "in that particular area" (as Arial put it).

And not "based on" the acrostic TULIP but rather "conveyed by" it.

 

[justbyfaith]

To the reader: When he said, "Until they are drawn by the Holy Spirit to Christ," at that point he was no longer speaking of the unregenerate—which means he agreed with my statement (but couldn't bring himself to say so).

No; for being drawn is not the exact same thing as being regenerated.

 

[justbyfaith]

Let's assume that is true. Now, explain to me how John 6:44 makes sense: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

1. If everyone is drawn, then why would he say that no one can come to him unless they are drawn?

2. If everyone is drawn, and he will raise up everyone who is drawn—not can, not might, but will—then how do you avoid universalism?

If you don't answer these two questions, I won't be the only one who notices.

The answer to question 1 is that He said it because it is true.

The answer to question 2, I avoid Universalism by saying that there is a resurrection unto damnation (John 5:29, Daniel 12:2).

 

[justbyfaith]

Wait. Everyone who is baptized in the name of Jesus belongs to those who are called?

yes. Of course they must also repent...and the baptism must be for the remission of sins.

 

[justbyfaith]

Different claim. Stop hopping from one foot to another. You said faith and works are mutually exclusive when it comes to salvation. They are not, as I pointed out.

And let me add to that what James said, that faith without works is dead (Jas 2:17, 26). And there is also the writer to the Hebrews who spoke of dead works (Heb 6:1). If the Bible talks about dead faith (for it is without works) and dead works (for it is without faith), then it seems fairly clear that faith and works are not mutually exclusive when it comes to salvation. As John Calvin said, "It is therefore faith alone which justifies, and yet the faith which justifies is not alone." And a couple of decades before him Martin Luther said, "As the works do not follow, it is a sure sign that there is no faith there, but only an empty thought and dream which they falsely call faith."

My point is that a man is not saved by works but he is saved through faith.

So, when it comes to salvation, faith saves and works doesn't. Therefore they are mutually exclusive when it comes to salvation.

Otherwise works would save or faith wouldn't save.

If faith and works are the same thing when it comes to salvation, then faith doesn't save or else works do save.

 

[justbyfaith]

Incorrect. Please make your response correspond with that I actually said—because that was not it.

It actually corresponds quite nicely with what you said.

Not "to a very great extent," but rather "in that particular area" (as Arial put it).

And not "based on" the acrostic TULIP but rather "conveyed by" it.

If anyone today departs from the acronym they are said not to be a Calvinist.

Therefore Calvinism is today based on the acronym.

 

[justbyfaith]

We could take a poll I guess if it is that important to you to think you WON!!

Calvinists who have a vested interest in believing that I have lost might not agree that I have won simply because they don't want to believe it.

 

[justbyfaith]

That is the point. We may not want to go to hell, if maybe there is one, but we do not want to give up our sins and answer to God in order to do so. We do not want Him as Lord over our life.

And you make your choice accordingly.

But if, in being drawn to Christ, you are shown the sheer folly of your position, you may decide to believe in, receive, and follow Christ!