Free will--a Calvinistic proposition?

[ReverendRV]

So, the man must be willing before he is regenerated; otherwise God is regenerating him while he is resistant to being regenerated.

Focus on this point for a while...

 

[justbyfaith]

That, right here, is what I was referring to when I said, "It was also noticeable that you obfuscated the discussion by suddenly introducing a new term, ‘motivation’."

Here, one can observe you doing exactly that.

There is nothing wrong with using the term "motivation" to relate what I am speaking of; and there is nothing wrong with introducing new terms into a discussion.

 

[justbyfaith]

What the heck kind of argument is that? To depart from the actual doctrines that are expressed in the acronym would be to depart from Calvinism because they contain what Calvinism IS in that particular area.

Next.

Therefore, Calvinism is to a very great extent based on the acronym TULIP.

 

[justbyfaith]

That post proves otherwise, and this one proves you're dishonest - again.

No, that is your accusation as a servant of the accuser.

 

[justbyfaith]

Do you ever read your own words before posting them? You just contradicted yourself. According to you the inability to choose salvation is overcome but that is not a guarantee of salvation. The Holy Spirit overcame sin but did not overcome sin. Not only did the Spirit not overcome what He overcame, but He left the efficacy of His labor in the mind and will of the still unregenerate sinfully dead and enslaved flesh!

You can't comprehend what I'm saying because you don't believe in free will. Put free will into the equation, and you might understand what I am saying.

Becoming able to receive Christ does not guarantee that I will receive Christ.

I have a choice in the matter.

 

[justbyfaith]

Prove it.

Cite one verse that actually explicitly states, "I, God, have overcome the inability to choose salvation and simply enabled the will of the still sinfully dead and enslaved flesh to make a decision for or against My Son."

Show me. Do not show me verses you eisegetically read to infer the claim. Show me the verse that explicitly states that claim; and if you cannot find such a verse then please have the honesty and integrity to immediately post "There is no such verse; my position is obtained only by inference."

I can only give you John 6:44 with the knowledge that if being drawn to Christ means being given to Christ, then John 12:32 teaches Universalism (which is heresy).

 

[justbyfaith]

No, it is not.

Are you the one with whom I just spent days and dozens of posts showing how the verse, the chapter, the three-chapter narrative, and the salutation of the epistle identify the audience and applicable group as saints, those chosen of Christ? If you are not that guy, then just say so and I will link you to that thread because I am not reposting it.

I am that guy; and I would say to you that I showed you clearly that Romans 10:9 gives the prescription for salvation to people who are not yet saved.

 

[Arial]

Just that I cannot think of any scripture that specifically states what I am trying to say to you.

Which does not mean that what I am trying to say isn't true or even biblical.

Because I could ask you if you can find any Bible that contradicts what I am saying and you wouldn't be able to find any.

Plenty.

Where does the Bible say when we are draw to Christ we are given motivation to receive Him? Scriptures please.

Scriptures that say otherwise. John 6




40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”



61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

It is definitive. Not motivation. Only certain ones believe and Jesus did not say it is those who choose to believe, but it is though to whom it is granted by the Father.

 

[justbyfaith]

Just like every Calvinist here says.

The difference being that I would contend that being drawn to Christ does not guarantee being given to Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

Do you believe you are saved by grace alone, or saved by grace-plus-your-unregenerate-will-of-the-sinful-flesh?

By grace through faith...which is a function of the will (of the spirit, not the flesh).

 

[justbyfaith]

Focus on this point for a while...

Yes...a person must make a decision to be unresistant to the Lord before He regenerates them...otherwise when He regenerates them He does so while they are still resistant and makes them unresistant against their will.

 

[Arial]

By grace through faith...which is a function of the will (of the spirit, not the flesh).

The will is our flesh. Our flesh does not do anything independently of our will and vice versa.

 

[ReverendRV]

Yes...a person must make a decision to be unresistant to the Lord before He regenerates them...otherwise when He regenerates them He does so while they are still resistant and makes them unresistant against their will.

The Bible says no one does Good, no not one; right?

 

[Arial]

Therefore, Calvinism is to a very great extent based on the acronym TULIP.

The acronym is based on Calvinism.

 

[justbyfaith]

Plenty.

Scriptures that say otherwise. John 6




40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”



61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

It is definitive. Not motivation. Only certain ones believe and Jesus did not say it is those who choose to believe, but it is though to whom it is granted by the Father.

John 6:44 specifically says that no one can come to Christ unless they are drawn...not that being drawn to Christ guarantees that they will come to Christ.

If being drawn guarantees being given, then John 12:32 teaches Universalism which is abject heresy.

 

[justbyfaith]

The acronym is based on Calvinism.

and vice versa.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Bible says no one does Good, no not one; right?

Being drawn overcomes this so that the prospective convert is able to receive Christ.

Being drawn is not the same thing as regeneration; but it does bring a person halfway in so that they can either go all the way in or else all the way out again.

 

[Arial]

John 6:44 specifically says that no one can come to Christ unless they are drawn...not that being drawn to Christ guarantees that they will come to Christ.

What it specifically says is

65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Those drawn to Chris are the ones granted to by the Father. We know this because He says He will raise him up in the last day. YOu simply have an incorrect understanding of what Jesus means by drawn. But here Jesus tells us what He means. Those granted Him by the Father.

 

[ReverendRV]

Being drawn overcomes this so that the prospective convert is able to receive Christ.

Being drawn is not the same thing as regeneration; but it does bring a person halfway in so that they can either go all the way in or else all the way out again.

See, that wasn't so hard; was it?

Wouldn't you say that people are Totally Unable to come to Christ on their own, until the Grace which Draws them appears?

 

[Arial]

and vice versa.

Just stop! You are wrong and you are just arguing. Stop beating a dead horse.