Free Choice to Accept or Reject?

[fastfredy0]

I guess I'd have to have a definition of "mind" there that would encompass more than any of us know, for me to give intellectual assent to that. I just don't know that it has to go through one's mind first. But I do agree that faith comes by hearing. Yet we claim that regeneration is done TO us, and not necessarily in the mind, but definitely in the heart.

If it is the mind that makes a person that person, then I might agree with you, but that is more than I know.

Maybe better to use the term "spirit" rather than "mind" and "heart".
Romans 8:10 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:

... of course, maybe you heard the gospel on the TV so faith cometh by TV (giggle)

 

[Arial]

I guess I'd have to have a definition of "mind" there that would encompass more than any of us know, for me to give intellectual assent to that. I just don't know that it has to go through one's mind first. But I do agree that faith comes by hearing. Yet we claim that regeneration is done TO us, and not necessarily in the mind, but definitely in the heart.

The mind. What we use to process, reason, think, absorb information, solve problems, stuff like that. Regeneration is done by God. It is done so that when we do hear we do believe. Regeneration is done in the heart, not the mind. I am in no way, for example, equating Martha's response to regeneration, but rather the result of it. When that regeneration took place, we do not know. She was after all answering a question that Jesus ask her. She already believed in the resurrection of the dead as is evident in her first response to Jesus. In answer to the question if she believed he was the resurrection and the life she did not answer yes or no. She made a statement, I believe you are the Son of God who is to come. She understood something she did not understand before. She put two and two together in a manner of speaking and she believed it. Putting two plus two together is a function of the mind. But her exclamation shows that it was not only in her intellect but deep within her heart as something she believed.

I dunno. It seems the more I say, the more confusing it sounds. But I know what I mean.

If it is the mind that makes a person that person, then I might agree with you, but that is more than I know.

However I did not say it was the mind. I said it was the heart. And I say that because God says it is our heart that he changes.

 

[fastfredy0]

Regeneration is done in the heart not the mind

So, a non Christian gets a heart transplant in which the donator was a Christian, thus saving the recipient?

I dunno. It seems the more I say, the more confusing it sounds. But I know what I mean.

Use the term 'spirit' as no one can assign it to physical characteristics so you don't have to explain.

 

[JIM]

possible semantics issue that I clarify by stating .... we do the choosing according to our desires and God determines our desires.

John 1:3 All things were made and came into existence through Him [which includes our desires]; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being.

We choose according to our desires, we don't choose our desires. We can't choose our desires as we didn't exist to choose them.

So then, who "chooses" or creates our desires? God? If God "chooses" our desires, then God is the responsible agent for our sinful desires and actions. But He neither tempts anyone nor is tempted (James 1:13-14). Thus, if not God, then who "chooses" our desires? There is only our own selves.

 

[Mr GLee]

Where I disagree with what you said to some degree is that it was not definitive of her faith but of her growth. I say to a degree, because as we grow in our understanding, and we cannot do that until we believe (as Jesus does whenever he states believe or believe in me, and you will have eternal life) we do just that. Our first belief, the faith given by God in his grace, is bound to change or grow more dimensions. Our belief that saves does not change. Our beliefs should as we learn from his word. If someone is in exactly the same place forty years down the road as they were when they first began, as to their understanding of God and his work, and they are of sound mind, something is amiss. Why? Because it is God who works in us to conform us to the image of Christ.

I would offer.

Yes. Christ's work of faith as a labor of his love working in born again believers .

Not of dying mankind our own selves. "No faith" . . that comes from hearing the living word ."Let there be" and Christ's labor of love "it is finished" Law of faith. Gods power working within .

The kind of food the apostles knew not at first. Daily bread or called hidden manna. the signified undestanding

John 4:33-35 King James Version Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Same food to both (the key) will and to do spoken of in Philippian 2:13

Philippian 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Jesus the of man empowered with the father he performed it. Other like Jonas kicked against the pricks all the way and desired to die knowing God is not racist .


God s not served by the dying hands of mankind as a will .He has no needs but satisfices all of his own ."Let there be" needs

 

[Mr GLee]

So then, who "chooses" or creates our desires? God? If God "chooses" our desires, then God is the responsible agent for our sinful desires and actions. But He neither tempts anyone nor is tempted (James 1:13-14). Thus, if not God, then who "chooses" our desires? There is only our own selves.

It would seem not a democracy .but rather a covenant of His love


Job 23: 13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him.
For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me

 

[Arial]

The theist is one who believes that God is the creator but rejects the basic message of the Bible. One can believe in God and still reject the Bible as the word of God. So yes, it is possible to believe something and reject it at the same time. That is the message of Romans 1:18-32.

Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Why do you suppose we all did/do that (speaking of the natural man, not the regenerated)? But it does not say in Romans 1:21 that they believed something and also rejected it. It says the creation itself showed of his existence but they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him. And the knowledge we have of God through creation is not sufficient to give eternal life. That takes the person and work of Christ and placing our trust in him.

So I ask again: Can a person believe in the person and work of Christ and not believe it at the same time? And if they do believe in the person and work of Christ, according to Christ himself, does that not grant eternal life? And if eternal life has been granted and given by the only one who can do so, can it become not actually eternal but just offered? Because of that is the case, then eternal would have no meaning and Jesus would be a liar. If one's acceptance or rejection of what one believes (see how oxymoronic that statement is?) is the key to eternal life, then man holds all the power over his own life. Not God. Not Christ. Even though Jesus declared that he was the way the truth and life. And he declared that he is the resurrection and the life.

 

[Arial]

possible semantics issue that I clarify by stating .... we do the choosing according to our desires and God determines our desires.

John 1:3 All things were made and came into existence through Him [which includes our desires]; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being.

We choose according to our desires, we don't choose our desires. We can't choose our desires as we didn't exist to choose them.

I don't think God determines our desires. I think when he regenerates us our desires change from being against him to seeking him.

 

[makesends]

So then, who "chooses" or creates our desires? God? If God "chooses" our desires, then God is the responsible agent for our sinful desires and actions. But He neither tempts anyone nor is tempted (James 1:13-14). Thus, if not God, then who "chooses" our desires? There is only our own selves.

Your lousy logic continues. If God chooses it does not mean that we don't choose.

By the way, the only time you choose your desires is when you desire to choose your desires. It really is that simple. You can't get away from the fact that you choose according to your desires. Nor can you escape the logic that if God created, then God intended. "Chose" is just a human word to describe God's purposes concerning the details of what he has done.

 

[makesends]

I don't think God determines our desires. I think when he regenerates us our desires change from being against him to seeking him.

Logic demands that he does, simply by being Creator and Omnipotent; all else comes to be, causally, as a result of his creating. However, it does not demand that he does so directly, but that he can do so by means. That does not mean that the equation: "If God decides, man does not." is worth anything. That is lousy logic, rooted in the mentality of self-determinism.

I can find no recourse but to believe that he determines absolutely every fact of his creation and indeed of reality itself. Nothing else CAN happen or exist but he himself.

 

[fastfredy0]

I think when he regenerates us our desires change from being against him to seeking him.

Well, since I believe God determines all things including our desires I agree with this statement.

I don't think God determines our desires.

Well, since I believe God determines all things including our desires I DO NOT agree with this statement.

Some reasons from logic:
1) The Law of Causality states that every effect has a cause. Ultimately, you are NOT the cause of your desires as at one time you did not exist. Only an eternal Being can be UNCAUSED. John 1:3 says: All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being. Your desires are a thing and all t hings were created by Him. Furthermore, God upholds all things: Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

2) God knows all future things. At one time there was nothing but God and since even God does not know what nothing will do the only way He can know the future is if He is the cause of all things.

3) Test yourself ... when did you determine that you would have a sin nature .... and even if you did, what was the basis of you choosing to have a sin nature given your desires (reason for choosing) was and Empty Slate.

Bible Verses
Romans 11:36 For from Him [all things originate] and through Him [all things live and exist] and to Him are all things [directed]. To Him be glory and honor forever! Amen.

• 1 Chronicles 29:14 "Who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee".
• Job 23:13 But He is unchangeable, and who can turn Him? And what He wants to do, that He does.
• Psalm 33:15 He Who fashions the hearts of them all, Who considers all their doings.

GOT TO GO...WIFE WANTS ME .... SCARED TO DISOBEY

 

[makesends]

Well, since I believe God determines all things including our desires I agree with this statement.

Well, since I believe God determines all things including our desires I DO NOT agree with this statement.

Some reasons from logic:
1) The Law of Causality states that every effect has a cause. Ultimately, you are NOT the cause of your desires as at one time you did not exist. Only an eternal Being can be UNCAUSED. John 1:3 says: All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being. Your desires are a thing and all t hings were created by Him. Furthermore, God upholds all things: Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

2) God knows all future things. At one time there was nothing but God and since even God does not know what nothing will do the only way He can know the future is if He is the cause of all things.

3) Test yourself ... when did you determine that you would have a sin nature .... and even if you did, what was the basis of you choosing to have a sin nature given your desires (reason for choosing) was and Empty Slate.

Bible Verses
Romans 11:36 For from Him [all things originate] and through Him [all things live and exist] and to Him are all things [directed]. To Him be glory and honor forever! Amen.

• 1 Chronicles 29:14 "Who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee".
• Job 23:13 But He is unchangeable, and who can turn Him? And what He wants to do, that He does.
• Psalm 33:15 He Who fashions the hearts of them all, Who considers all their doings.

GOT TO GO...WIFE WANTS ME .... SCARED TO DISOBEY

Oh man, you got me laughing! Well put!

 

[JIM]

Why do you suppose we all did/do that (speaking of the natural man, not the regenerated)? But it does not say in Romans 1:21 that they believed something and also rejected it. It says the creation itself showed of his existence but they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him. And the knowledge we have of God through creation is not sufficient to give eternal life. That takes the person and work of Christ and placing our trust in him.

So I ask again: Can a person believe in the person and work of Christ and not believe it at the same time? And if they do believe in the person and work of Christ, according to Christ himself, does that not grant eternal life? And if eternal life has been granted and given by the only one who can do so, can it become not actually eternal but just offered? Because of that is the case, then eternal would have no meaning and Jesus would be a liar. If one's acceptance or rejection of what one believes (see how oxymoronic that statement is?) is the key to eternal life, then man holds all the power over his own life. Not God. Not Christ. Even though Jesus declared that he was the way the truth and life. And he declared that he is the resurrection and the life.

One could believe the existence of God and still not believe in God. Clearly, the Judaizers who caused Paul so much anguish believed there was a God but rejected Paul's teaching of the gospel. In rejecting that teaching, they rejected God (Rom 9:1- 8).

Faith comes from hearing through the word of Christ (Rom 10:17). Hearing the word of God about Christ leads to faith in God. Even so, hearing that word does not cause faith in God. It is the basis of faith but not the cause of faith.

Rom 10:21 But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."

 

[Arial]

One could believe the existence of God and still not believe in God. Clearly, the Judaizers who caused Paul so much anguish believed there was a God but rejected Paul's teaching of the gospel. In rejecting that teaching, they rejected God (Rom 9:1- 8).

Obviously. I have said the same thing again and again in a series of posts in which you argued with me about it. Now. Could you simply answer the question? And respond to the content of my post?

So I ask again: Can a person believe in the person and work of Christ and not believe it at the same time? And if they do believe in the person and work of Christ, according to Christ himself, does that not grant eternal life? And if eternal life has been granted and given by the only one who can do so, can it become not actually eternal but just offered? Because of that is the case, then eternal would have no meaning and Jesus would be a liar. If one's acceptance or rejection of what one believes (see how oxymoronic that statement is?) is the key to eternal life, then man holds all the power over his own life. Not God. Not Christ. Even though Jesus declared that he was the way the truth and life. And he declared that he is the resurrection and the life.

 

[JIM]

Obviously. I have said the same thing again and again in a series of posts in which you argued with me about it. Now. Could you simply answer the question? And respond to the content of my post?

I have. But given that you and I appear to not agree what it even means to believe someone versus to believe in someone, there seems to be no reason to do so again.

 

[Arial]

I have. But given that you and I appear to not agree what it even means to believe someone versus to believe in someone, there seems to be no reason to do so again.

We actually do agree on the difference that can exist between believing and believing in. But you fought me tooth and nail on it for a number of posts, simply because it was me that said there was a difference. My question regarding these posts was very explicit and no, you did not answer it and you did not deal with what was posted about it. It is not about the difference between believing in and believing and all you did was red herring the conversation to a different topic. Maybe you do not understand what the subject is or my post, but I will quote it again and ask politely that you answered THAT question and deal with the content of the post. It is post #47 so you can go back to it and quote me where necessary as you deal with it and answer the question.

So I ask again: Can a person believe in the person and work of Christ and not believe it at the same time? And if they do believe in the person and work of Christ, according to Christ himself, does that not grant eternal life? And if eternal life has been granted and given by the only one who can do so, can it become not actually eternal but just offered? Because of that is the case, then eternal would have no meaning and Jesus would be a liar. If one's acceptance or rejection of what one believes (see how oxymoronic that statement is?) is the key to eternal life, then man holds all the power over his own life. Not God. Not Christ. Even though Jesus declared that he was the way the truth and life. And he declared that he is the resurrection and the life.

You know exactly what I am getting at in that post and you know the answer of necessity must be "No they cannot." But that would tear apart all assertions of free will in coming to Christ with a choice to accept or reject. They certainly are able to not believe it but that is not the question. The natural man won't believe it. Your branch of Pelagian and Semi-Pelagian, has in the former no need of grace at all, and in the second grace that allows everyone to understand and believe and then choose to not believe it at the same time.

And since you know what I am getting at and demonstrating, I expect you will either just ignore the request or offer an insult.

 

[Mr GLee]

Logic demands that he does, simply by being Creator and Omnipotent; all else comes to be, causally, as a result of his creating. However, it does not demand that he does so directly, but that he can do so by means. That does not mean that the equation: "If God decides, man does not." is worth anything. That is lousy logic, rooted in the mentality of self-determinism.

I can find no recourse but to believe that he determines absolutely every fact of his creation and indeed of reality itself. Nothing else CAN happen or exist but he himself.

Yes the Spirit of "let there be" God. He is of one mind and always does what so ever his soul pleases .He performs that which is appointed to us Yoked with Him our daily sufferings can be lighter .He alone through the water of His word make our heart soft .

Remember we are not what we will be . Our new bodies will not lust after sin. A new reasoning system

We can pray deliverer our earthly logic of reasoning that we might learn truth by faith as it is written (the unseen )

Job 23:12-16 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

 

[Arial]

Well, since I believe God determines all things including our desires I DO NOT agree with this statement.

Do you think he determines I will desire chocolate at least twice a day? Maybe we need some definitions or specifications?

 

[Arial]

I can find no recourse but to believe that he determines absolutely every fact of his creation and indeed of reality itself. Nothing else CAN happen or exist but he himself.

Yes. But is that really the subject? I think taking it into the causal debate is going a bit far afield. Due to the fact that @JIM can't seem to (or doesn't want to) distinguish one thing from another. His illogic that if God elects who to save and then saves them by his own power and in doing so, he must change us internally from our natural condition of being at enmity with him; and if he does that according to the way I am understanding JIM, that means that he is responsible for our sins and determines them. And by extension we have no responsibility at all and yet he punishes us for what we do anyway. It is an erroneous and illogical idea that man can only be responsible for his actions if he has free will.

What is left out of such thinking is that we owe God full and complete obedience and he owes us nothing. It is grace that he stoops down to tabernacle with us and to pull some out of the kingdom of darkness and give them to the Son.

It is grace that he causes it to rain on the parched ground, and provides food for man and animal. It is grace that we breathe.

 

[makesends]

Do you think he determines I will desire chocolate at least twice a day? Maybe we need some definitions or specifications?

Yes he does. Absolutely. Logically, everything that happens does so as an effect of causes all the way back to his omnipotent omniscient creating. He intended for you to desire chocolate every time you do, just as he intended for Adam to disobey. And no, for those feeling the bile rise in their throats at me saying so, this does not mean that what he intends is what he commands.

The disobedience is the sin. The causes of the disobedience are not. And the will of the lost is disobedient.

I said, "The causes of the disobedience are not [the sin]." I'm not saying there that there are no sinful causes, nor that the 'bent' of the sinner's will is not sinful nor even that it would be false to say that the fallen will is of itself sin. After all, it is a constant disobedience —even when it chooses to do what is right, it is wrong. When Christ died and our sins are forgiven, WE are transformed, and not just the repeated outworkings of the 'old man' still present in us are forgiven.