Eternal Torture Of The Ungodly

[Buff Scott Jr.]

REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
____________________

Eternal Torture Of The
Ungodly
[FINALE]
​

Let's go one more round with the everlasting punishment dispute. I’ve received a number of responses, a few of which need to be addressed.

Of all the scriptures that seem to lean in favor of eternal conscious existence, Matthew 25:46 is the heaviest. You will note, however—and this is important—that nowhere in scripture is there the remotest idea that eternal living is identified with resulting annihilation or destruction. On the other hand, the scriptures that address eternal punishment are related to many other scriptures that denote rather clearly that annihilation or destruction is the final and conclusive sentence of the ungodly.

If my observation is biblically correct and consistent with heaven’s message, we must conclude that Jesus associated eternal life with conscious existence and eternal punishment with final annihilation. After all, it would be careless to sweep under the rug such passages as, “Their destiny is destruction” (Phil. 3:19), and “By the same word the present heavens (universe) and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men” (2 Peter 3:7). There are no scriptures that address eternal life in the same vein!

You will observe that Peter speaks of two entities being extinguished, the universe and the ungodly. What applies to one must apply to the other. If our current physical universe ceases to exist when the end arrives, so will the ungodly cease to exist when their sentence is finalized.

Some see a difference between torment and torture, such as "torment will be just punishment, while torture will be cruel punishment." I fail to see the distinction. According to standard dictionaries, there is little or no difference between the two. If God subjects the ungodly to endless torment, He is, in essence, subjecting them to endless torture.

Final Thoughts
Yes, I believe in eternal punishment for the ungodly, but I do not believe in uninterrupted or perpetual torture. Eternal punishment includes the result or aftermath of their complete destruction, if my understanding of the biblical term “destruction” is correct.

What about the idea of “no consciousness, no punishment”? Well, let’s see. The criminal who is electrocuted is conscious of his final end. This is his punishment. The consequence will be eternal. There will be no recall. The end result will be void of consciousness. The ungodly will suffer conscious punishment for a period, as the criminal does, but then annihilated. The electrical switch is not pulled on the criminal over and over. Nor is the instrument of torment applied to the ungodly incessantly. His ultimate end will be destruction, as the scriptures so clearly teach.

Try to understand that when the ungodly realize what they have rejectedthe splendor and glories of God, Jesus, and heaven—their anguish will be akin to fire and brimstone. When they perceive they will be separated eternally from these majestic blessings, their misery will be tantamount to burning forever in a lake of fire. This will be their punishment prior to obliteration.

There is one underlying factor in this issue: God is not a merciful God if he delights in torturing the ungodly, consciously and endlessly. This kind of behavior is not the result of mercy and compassion. It is, instead, cruel and brutal. I do not envision my God as possessing this nature.

True, our merciful God, in past history, led Israel to kill countless thousands of their enemies, including young children. But He did not kill them over and over and over, endlessly. Nor will He torture or torment the ungodly endlessly. They will be punished, but then annihilated (destroyed) forever.

Note, please, in closing, that the term “destruction” in our English translations is used in its normal, current-day setting. Consequently, I conclude that destruction refers to a total and complete annihilation. This is how the ungodly's fate is described in scripture. The results—outcome, effect, aftermath—will be endless or eternal.​

 

[Josheb]

Hi Buff,

Before I dive in help me understand from whence you come. Looks like you subscribe to annihilation. Do I have that correct? If so, are you SDA, Open Theist, or JW? If none of those then can you tell me from whom among the orthodox (or maybe the mainstream) you source (Ignatius or some of the other ECFs? Wesley? Bruce, Stott?)?

Thx

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Josheb:

I don't mind giving you, and others, some background history. I have nothing to hide. In turn, I would appreciate it if you shared some of your past history.

Have you heard of the Hatfield-McCoy Feud? I was born one mile from where the feud began. Mom was a Hatfield before she married Dad. The conflict was history by the time I came upon the scene. I first witnessed the light of day in Mudlick Hollow of Pike County, right in the middle of the rugged Appalachian Mountains of Eastern Kentucky.​

There were nine of us children, six girls and three boys. Times were hard. Poverty was common. We took a bath and changed clothes once a week. This bit of information may not be very appealing, but we bathed in the same wash tub and in the same water. Shoes were a blessing and hard to come by, so we went barefoot most all year except during the winter months. A few items of clothing worn by my sisters were made by Mom out of feed sacks.

Education wasn’t stressed in those Kentucky mountains. My formal education consisted of the 7th grade. My teacher refused to promote another student and me to the 8th grade when she caught us looking up dirty words in the dictionary! Yes, you heard me correctly. It was later on in life that I educated myself, mostly through self-efforts. A big part of my occupational experiences has been in the journalistic field as writer, editor, and publisher. Additionally, many years have been spent in the psychiatric arena as alcohol and drug counselor, Vocational Rehabilitation Specialist, and teacher.

I served as pulpit minister for a number of Protestant churches. I gave up pulpiteering decades ago in favor of freedom in Messiah Jesus. The spirit of man can survive only in an atmosphere of freedom, and it is difficult if not impossible to be free while enslaved to some sect or denomination. I love my freedom too much to allow some church or religious party to tell me what I can and cannot teach, what I can and cannot believe, and how I can or cannot conduct my daily affairs.

My allegiance is to a Man called Jesus, and it is to Him that I will give an account. It is in Him that I will stand or fall. And He is able to make me stand. I will never grow too old to acknowledge and listen to valid counsel from others, but I will never become so senile as to renounce my will in favor of religious slavery—no, never again.

P. S. Yes, I subscribe to annihilation.​

 

[Josheb]

Josheb:

I don't mind giving you, and others, some background history. I have nothing to hide. In turn, I would appreciate it if you shared some of your past history.

Have you heard of the Hatfield-McCoy Feud? I was born one mile from where the feud began. Mom was a Hatfield before she married Dad. The conflict was history by the time I came upon the scene. I first witnessed the light of day in Mudlick Hollow of Pike County, right in the middle of the rugged Appalachian Mountains of Eastern Kentucky.​

There were nine of us children, six girls and three boys. Times were hard. Poverty was common. We took a bath and changed clothes once a week. This bit of information may not be very appealing, but we bathed in the same wash tub and in the same water. Shoes were a blessing and hard to come by, so we went barefoot most all year except during the winter months. A few items of clothing worn by my sisters were made by Mom out of feed sacks.

Education wasn’t stressed in those Kentucky mountains. My formal education consisted of the 7th grade. My teacher refused to promote another student and me to the 8th grade when she caught us looking up dirty words in the dictionary! Yes, you heard me correctly. It was later on in life that I educated myself, mostly through self-efforts. A big part of my occupational experiences has been in the journalistic field as writer, editor, and publisher. Additionally, many years have been spent in the psychiatric arena as alcohol and drug counselor, Vocational Rehabilitation Specialist, and teacher.

I served as pulpit minister for a number of Protestant churches. I gave up pulpiteering decades ago in favor of freedom in Messiah Jesus. The spirit of man can survive only in an atmosphere of freedom, and it is difficult if not impossible to be free while enslaved to some sect or denomination. I love my freedom too much to allow some church or religious party to tell me what I can and cannot teach, what I can and cannot believe, and how I can or cannot conduct my daily affairs.

My allegiance is to a Man called Jesus, and it is to Him that I will give an account. It is in Him that I will stand or fall. And He is able to make me stand. I will never grow too old to acknowledge and listen to valid counsel from others, but I will never become so senile as to renounce my will in favor of religious slavery—no, never again.

P. S. Yes, I subscribe to annihilation.​

I appreciate that information, but it is not the background I request. This opening post is about annihilation and my questions were sepcifically and explicitly about your annihilationist views. I wasn't asking about anything other than annihilation. So let me ask my questions again in hopes that they are better understood and will be answered solely and specifically in an op-relevant way.

1. Is this op affirmatively asserting annihilationism?
2. If so, are you SDA, Open Theist, or JW? (these theologies are commony associated with annihilationism)
3. If none of those, then can you tell me from whom among the orthodox you source (Ignatius or some of the other ECFs? Wesley? Bruce, Stott?)? (some of the ECFs, Wesley, Bruce, Stott, and others held views consistent with annihilation)

My sole purpose to the inquiry is to understand the context of your annihilationism. Nothing more. If this op is not arguing affirmatively for annihilation, then please clarify the position or point to be discussed.

 

[atpollard]

Note, please, in closing, that the term “destruction” in our English translations is used in its normal, current-day setting. Consequently, I conclude that destruction refers to a total and complete annihilation. This is how the ungodly's fate is described in scripture. The results—outcome, effect, aftermath—will be endless or eternal.

Why is the FIRE unending and why does the WORM never die?
Annihilation suggests they are needed only for "a season" ... until their work is finished.
Perhaps their WORK is never finished?

Shalom Shalom (Perfect peace)

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Why is the FIRE unending and why does the WORM never die?
Annihilation suggests they are needed only for "a season" ... until their work is finished.
Perhaps their WORK is never finished?

That's how I read it. The bodies just keep getting piled on for eternity.

 

[Josheb]

Why is the FIRE unending and why does the WORM never die?

Because there are so many among the condemned.

Logically speaking, what happens to a worm if literally thrown into a literal fire? Not a rhetorical question. Not a "trick" question." What literally happens if a body is literally thrown into a fire, or a furnace?

Annihilation suggests they are needed only for "a season" ... until their work is finished.

No, it does not suggest any such thing. Where'd you get the idea it "suggests" such a thing? Got scripture for that pov?

Perhaps their WORK is never finished?

Shalom Shalom (Perfect peace)

Perhaps. Perhaps the unending time is due to the sheer magnitude of the lost in number and not the time it takes to incinerate an individual body. It's my understanding that sufficiently potent hydrochloric acid can render a human body into nothingness within a few hours. Cremating a body with earthly temperatures takes about 3 hours . I imagine a God who can make suns can up the temperature a little and He doesn't need to light them up one at a time.

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.


Thought experiment: There are, supposedly more than 2 billion Christians living on the earth currently. You and I may lessen that number under the auspices of Matthew 7's many people claiming to know Jesus who actually do not and/or the necessity of being "born again," but for the sake of this exercise let's say that number is halved. There are currently 1 billion actual, bona fide regenerate name-of-Christ-believing Christians on the planet right now. That's 1 billion out of the nearly 8 billion people in total. In other words, if we suppose 1 billion Christians and 7 billion headed for destruction and then multiply that ratio for every generation that has lived in the past the number of Christians is about 2 billion and the number of lost about 16 billion because - supposedly - there are as many people alive today as has ever lived in the whole of the past. I don't know how they come up with those numbers but it doesn't matter for the sake of this exercise.

On the other side of resurrection there will be 2 billion receiving eternal life and 8 times that number (maybe more) headed for a fiery lake that is so destructive it destroys death for all eternity (otherwise death still exists in the renewed kingdom of heaven and earth). The question then is,

"How long does it take to incinerate 16 billion corpses?"

Answer: A long time .


Of course, the entire exercise is misguided because time is irrelevant to God. God does not exist in time and space; He does not exist solely within that which He created and that is important when it comes to discussions about eternity - even those pertaining to the conclusion of the ungodly. It's not likely God is sitting around in eternity roasting 16 billion corpses to prove He is a just God who justly metes out the just recompense for sin. The moment Adam disobeyed Him, God could have spoke Adam and Eve's existence out of existence and done so such that there was not even a memory of their having ever existed. He could do that today, too. He does not need a furnace, smoldering trash heap, or fiery lake. With a single word all record and all existence of the disobedient could be erased. The "work" of the dead could be finished in an instant.

And that instantaneous lack of existence could last eternally.

It all boils down to whether or not death continues to exist on the other side of judgment because if death is actually destroyed to the point death is annulled and no longer exists then so too is everything else tossed in the fiery lake. Otherwise, eternity is not deathless and the potential for death among the resurrected persists. That, of course, would be antithetical to the premise of eternal life .

 

[3 Resurrections]

Why is the FIRE unending and why does the WORM never die?
Annihilation suggests they are needed only for "a season" ... until their work is finished.

Butting in here for a bit...

The "fire" is eternal because its Source is eternal. Our God is called a "consuming fire". Daniel 7:9-10 presents the Ancient of Days' throne setting as a constant stream of fire coming from the Almighty. "...His throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him..."

It is only glorified, resurrected saints from humanity which can stand in the presence of such a consuming fire without being destroyed by it. The souls of the wicked dead are consumed by this. This blessed state of the glorified resurrected saints is pictured in Isaiah 33:14. "The sinners in Zion are afraid: fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" The answer immediately follows this question.

"He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure. Thine eyes shall see the king in His beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off..."

As the children of God, our eternal destiny is to dwell in the presence of God with those "everlasting burnings" of "consuming fire" that come forth from before God's throne, in that "land that is very far off". We will be able to see the Lord our king in His beauty, face to face, when we are "presented faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy" .

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

I appreciate that information, but it is not the background I request. This opening post is about annihilation and my questions were sepcifically and explicitly about your annihilationist views. I wasn't asking about anything other than annihilation. So let me ask my questions again in hopes that they are better understood and will be answered solely and specifically in an op-relevant way.

1. Is this op affirmatively asserting annihilationism?
2. If so, are you SDA, Open Theist, or JW? (these theologies are commony associated with annihilationism)
3. If none of those, then can you tell me from whom among the orthodox you source (Ignatius or some of the other ECFs? Wesley? Bruce, Stott?)? (some of the ECFs, Wesley, Bruce, Stott, and others held views consistent with annihilation)

My sole purpose to the inquiry is to understand the context of your annihilationism. Nothing more. If this op is not arguing affirmatively for annihilation, then please clarify the position or point to be discussed.

Josheb:

You inquired, "If none of those, then can you tell me from whom among the orthodox you source (Ignatius or some of the other ECFs? Wesley? Bruce, Stott?)? (some of the ECFs, Wesley, Bruce, Stott, and others held views consistent with annihilation)"

Basically, the Holy Scriptures. I'm surprised you did not see the connection while reading, assuming you did, my thread on "Eternal Torture Of The Ungodly." However, I received a goodly level of data on the subject decades ago from the late Edward Fudge's book, "The Fire That Consumes." I assume we both learn from others.

I'm a firm believer in the God who created the universe and who reveals Himself through the things He made and through the Holy Scriptures (see Romans, chapter 1). I could never be a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon or any of the other sects and cults. Now it's your turn.​

 

[Josheb]

I received a goodly level of data on the subject decades ago from the late Edward Fudge's book, "The Fire That Consumes."

That is what I was asking for. Thx

I assume we both learn from others.

Everyone does, though many will not acknowledge that or provide the requested information. I like to know folks' sources.

 

[atpollard]

Butting in here for a bit...

The "fire" is eternal because its Source is eternal. Our God is called a "consuming fire". Daniel 7:9-10 presents the Ancient of Days' throne setting as a constant stream of fire coming from the Almighty. "...His throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him..."

It is only glorified, resurrected saints from humanity which can stand in the presence of such a consuming fire without being destroyed by it. The souls of the wicked dead are consumed by this. This blessed state of the glorified resurrected saints is pictured in Isaiah 33:14. "The sinners in Zion are afraid: fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" The answer immediately follows this question.

"He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure. Thine eyes shall see the king in His beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off..."

As the children of God, our eternal destiny is to dwell in the presence of God with those "everlasting burnings" of "consuming fire" that come forth from before God's throne, in that "land that is very far off". We will be able to see the Lord our king in His beauty, face to face, when we are "presented faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy" .

An above average answer.

(I still think the balance of scripture leans towards ECT, but it is not where I want to invest my focus. I am striving towards NOT finding out the details of being an enemy of God first hand.)

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Why is the FIRE unending and why does the WORM never die?
Annihilation suggests they are needed only for "a season" ... until their work is finished.
Perhaps their WORK is never finished?

Shalom Shalom (Perfect peace)

atpollard:

The burning of Sodom and Gomorrah is described as eternal fire (Jude 7), or, we might say, unquenchable fire, like Mark 9:43-48, yet we know that fire is not still burning. When the results were concluded, the fire ceased. The results will never cease being results. But the fire itself ceased long ago.​

 

[atpollard]

atpollard:

The burning of Sodom and Gomorrah is described as eternal fire (Jude 7), or, we might say, unquenchable fire, like Mark 9:43-48, yet we know that fire is not still burning. When the results were concluded, the fire ceased. The results will never cease being results. But the fire itself ceased long ago.​

Check out @3 Resurrections answer in Post #9.
He offered some fascinating insight (applies to Sodom and Gomorrah, too.)

 

[Josheb]

Check out @3 Resurrections answer in Post #9. He offered some fascinating insight (applies to Sodom and Gomorrah, too.)

I disagree.

There are huge problems with both the exegesis and the reasoning in Post 9. To begin with all the figurative examples (parables, visions, etc.) are treated as if they are literal and they are not. That's a huge error.

Most of what the New Testament says about hell (r the final judgment or the final punishment of sin) is expressed in directly. It's expressed in parables. It's expressed in metaphors and/or figures of speech. One of the chief metaphors used is the pagan myths! You can go to any Christian forum and find otherwise intelligent, learned, experienced, Spirit-filled Christians ignoring this fact. Even Fudge ignores it!!! (are you paying attention @Buff Scott Jr. ? This is going to be lengthy, so I'll try to break it down into small posts and take incremental steps.

1. Jesus was a Jew, not Greek, Roman, Canaanite, etc. He was a Jew, not a Gentile.
2. Jesus likely spoke Aramaic, not Greek. That means ALL of the New Testament that was originally written in Greek is necessarily the authors translating Jesus' words from Aramaic into Greek (because Greek was the common language for the known world at that time). That means all our Greek manuscripts are not written in the language Jesus used.
3. Because Jesus was a Jew his theology was informed by the Jewish doctrine of Sheol, NOT the Greek/Roman mythology of hade/hel and the other pagan mythologies of the underworld.
4. There is only one God, and Jesus is God the Son. The doctrine of the Trinity is not specifically relevant to the case I am making for those who take issue with Trinitarianism, so put aside your protest. There is only one God. There are no such thing as lesser gods. Zeus does not actually exist. Hades does not actually exist. Pluto does not actually exist. Hel does not actually exist. Vulcan, Dis Pater, Anubis, Osiris, Milkom, Molech, Arawn, Nergal..... none of these gods actually exist! Jesus knows this. Jesus knows there is only one God who created everything including the grave and all that happens on the other side of it.
5. Jesus was NOT teaching paganism. Jesus was NOT teaching pagan mythology. Because Jesus was a Jew and because spoke Aramaic it is most likely Jesus used the word "sheol" or "grave" most often and NOT all the pagan terms.
6. In Judaism the dead know nothing. They are not wondering around consciously living in the domain of a lesser god. The Tanakh, or what we call the Old Testament, contains two lines of discourse pertaining to the grave. One is sheol, where the dead know nothing, and the other is the prospect of life returning to the dead. In Jewish theology the Sadducean view was the majority view. That view held there is only this life and then you die and then there is nothing. In modern vernacular this is very nihilistic. During the intertestamental period a number of minority sects arose within Judaism and one of them was the Pharisees. One of the chief distinctions between the Sadducean and Pharisaic theologies was the Pharisees' belief in a resurrection, that there is life after death. It's worth noting here that as far as the New Testament report goes, only Pharisees are ever said to follow Jesus. There's no record of any Sadducee doing so. This is understandable when it is realized the Sadducees believed everything Jesus taught about the other side of the grave to be false teaching!

 

[Josheb]

Part 2:

1. Jesus used five terms for the grave and what happens on the other side of death. Those terms are Sheol, Gehenna, Tartarus, Hades, and Hel. None of them are accurate versions of what Jesus taught and if what Jesus said is the truth then none of them is an accurate version of the truth. They are ALL cultural devices Jesus used to teach the truth. The grave is NOT a place where the dead know nothing. The grave is a place where everyone goes to face The Creator and face judgment. The grave is NOT a place underground in the underworld, a place ruled by a lesser god because there are no lesser gods. There is only God. The grave is NOT a place where certain privileged people who accomplished great works get promoted to the Elysium Fields to live at the foot of the gods' mountains because there are no lesser gods and salvation is by grace, not works. As it turns out, what Jesus taught is neither Jewish nor pagan.
2. Exegetically speaking, the correct and proper rule is to read and render the figurative by the literal. That means all the parables are just that: parables. Visions are visions; they are not real. Yes, they indicate something that is very real but they are not themselves the literal reality. They ar figurative and/or symbolic views of reality. This means that anyone studying hell must separate all of the New Testaments literal statements and list them in a column separate from all the figurative descriptions of hell. Then all of the literal statements are to be used to render all the figurative reports, not the other way around. Keep that in mind when reading/hearing any teacher because a great many reverse the order. Every time that happens it is bad exegesis.
3. There are two main words the New Testament used for destruction. One is a term, "phthora," (G5356) that is better translated as "rot," decay," or "corruption." The other, "apollumi," (G622) is a term that literally means "cutting off" to the point of the cessation of existence. Look it up. Verify for yourselves what I just posted. There are a few other terms, but those two are the ones most used. What Jesus and the New Testament writers said was there is a decay, a rot, that ensues with death. What they taught was there is a cessation of existence to death. There's no living in misery under the rule of a lesser god. There's happy place at the foot of the gods' home. What there is..... is rot, decay, and cutting off from life. The only other alternative Jesus and the New Testament writers ever taught in their literal comments was eternal life in Christ Jesus. Another important thing to note here is the asserted rotting or corruption is not said to occur at the hand of God. It is a "natural" outcome of sowing to the flesh, or reaping the results of sin and not any added punitive response by God. Even if God did not mete out the just recompense for sin, the pre-determined design outcome of dying in sin apart from Christ is rotting decay.
4. Where the figurative reports are given, if they are taken literally, then necessarily result in utter destruction. As I previously mention in an earlie post, chaff thrown into a furnace gets burned up - totally eradicated. Weeds thrown into a fire get burned up - totally eradicated. Trash decaying in a trash pit eventually ceases to be trash; it eventually ceases to exist. Physical bodies thrown into a fire get burned up. It is much slower than chaff and weeds thrown into a fire, but the end result is the same - a longer, slower, torturous suffering that eventually results in the eradication of the corpse, the cessation of all life. Keep in mind a very simple, presuppositional axiom: that which can be created can also be uncreated.
5. As I indicated in a previous post, the sheer number of those facing the condemning sentencing is enormous. Those who do not enter the narrow gate (for example) to eternal life is nearly beyond measure. It is enormous. The narrow road/gate is figurative, not literal, but it indicates the magnitude difference between the saved and never saved. Not only is it a figurative text, but it is also a temporal text. Time is not the same in eternity so no anthropomorphized, temporal view of eternity or the other side of the grave is correct. It is simply inadequate.
6. The figurative is not literal. God does not literally have a furnace where the dead weeds are tossed. If He does, then that directly contradicts a separate fire where chaff is destroyed. Either God has two forms of destruction, or they contradict one another, or they diversely speak figuratively of a single event and a single outcome. The same holds true, logically, for the fiery lake. Either there is a fire for the chaff, AND a furnace for the weeds, AND a fiery lack for the unnamed..... or the three contradict one another because they are each substantively different from one another..... or they all speak figuratively of a single event with a single outcome.
7. Death is abolished. In Revelation's fiery lake the adversary and death are said to suffer day and night, BUT that cannot exegetically or logically be read to conflict with Paul's declaration death is destroyed (Gk. : "katargeitai" = abolished) and "swallowed up or devoured (Gk.: "katepothē" = consumed and destroyed). See 1 Corinthians 15. Simply put, death is put to death. If death is not dead, then death lives in eternity. It is not annulled or abolished. It may linger around gnashing its teeth day and night, but death still lives on the other side of the grave; it still exists in eternity among the supposed immortally raised. So the option is rather blunt: either eternity is not a place where death no longer exists or eternity is a place where death still lives. This, of course, has enormous adverse implications for Christian theology. It directly effects Christology, soteriology, ecclesiology, and eschatology.
8. Rot, decay, and the cessation of existence that lasts forever is..... eternal.

Those are the bullet points. I'll happily elaborate, clarify, evidence with scripture, and collaboratively discuss any and all of those points. I have assumed you all have some familiarity with scripture, so I did not include all the many, many, many relevant scriptures in that bullet list. If something I said is not known to have a correlated scripture, then just ask and I'll provide the verses. All rude responses will be ignored. Lastly, there is a lot more that could be posted, but these are the chief salient bullet points.


Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

That is not a parable. That is not a vision. It is not figurative. It is literal. It has absolutely nothing to do with Sadducean theology, absolutely nothing to do with pagan mythology, nor Gentile philosophy. It is very plain and blunt. Only two options: rotting decay that is eternal or life that is eternal.

 

[atpollard]

I disagree.

There are huge problems with both the exegesis and the reasoning in Post 9. To begin with all the figurative examples (parables, visions, etc.) are treated as if they are literal and they are not. That's a huge error.

I concur with everything you said.

What I saw as USEFUL was the observation that GOD is a consuming fire and GOD is eternal, so irrespective of ECT or Annihilation, the FIRE is eternal because its source (GOD) is eternal. God eternally consumes sin and evil in His refining Fire of PERFECT HOLINESS.

That was a better explanation than most (including the reference to unending fire consuming Sodom and Gomorrah since, clearly, the cities are not still burning ... but God's Holiness is).

 

[Josheb]

I forgot to mention Sodom and Gomorrah.

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. They ceased to exist. There is no Sodom anymore. It is gone. The inhabitants of those cities will face judgment, but it is the same judgment of the second death satan and death suffer - and in that death, death is dies. All those inhabitants get tossed into the fiery lake so violent and destructive death is devoured.

Sodom is an OT soteriological and eschatological example foreshadowing what happens on the other side of the grave. We would normally consider that original event as something done and gone were it not for the fact Jesus brings up Sodom in the gospels and tells us their end has not ended....


... but it will.


There are plenty of other OT examples.

 

[atpollard]

What of the premise (irrespective of its source) that the FIRE of "Hell" is the Fire of God? The Pillar of flame that consumed those that came too close to the mountain? The HOLINESS that no man may approach and live?

• Is is scriptural plausible that the fire of judgement/punishment/destruction (lake of) is not EXTERNAL to God but emanates from God as its source?

 

[Josheb]

What of the premise (irrespective of its source) that the FIRE of "Hell" is the Fire of God? The Pillar of flame that consumed those that came too close to the mountain? The HOLINESS that no man may approach and live?

• Is is scriptural plausible that the fire of judgement/punishment/destruction (lake of) is not EXTERNAL to God but emanates from God as its source?

Anything is possible . Do you mean like no one can stand before God or see God as He is and live (apart from Christ)?

Make the case.