Does the Lord take us to heaven and we reign with Him

[Hobie]

or do look around for a Christ that has come in the desert or in the Middle East and walks around on earth for a 1000 years? It used to be that all Christians believed that Christ would come to take them to heaven, but now it seems a false doctrine of having someone that claims to be Christ will appear and maybe go to Jerusalem and say the 'kingdom' is set up for the next 1000 years of the Millennium, and say everyone must come and 'worship him'.

So what is the truth on this from the word of God and why does it matter especially to Gods people. Whether one is pre-trib rapture, or mid-trib, or post-trib the question of the Millennium and what happens at it still has to be answered. What is the Millennium and where are Christ and the saints during the Millennium?

There are two possible answers for "Where are the saints and Christ during the Millennium?"

Christ is in heaven after having taken the saints to heaven at the rapture and second coming. So both Christ and the saints are in heaven for that time and the wicked are all dead, (with Satan and his angels confined to Earth and no one to tempt).

Or Christ and the saints are on Earth during that time and Christ holds the wicked that are there also under some restraints for 1000 years.

If the saints are not taken to heaven at the second coming, then it opens the door to a "world-wide fake" to happen where Satan presents a pre-emptive 'coming' to have everyone be shocked and surprised after that "staged" or Satan can simple come and go to Jerusalem and claim they are in 'glorified' bodies or state where sin no longer affects them.

So what does the Bible say of the true coming of Christ. It was Christ Himself that warned that false Messiahs or false Christs would stake their claims prior to the return of Jesus:

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew. 24:24

Numerous additional signs of the imminent return of Christ are given in the Scriptures which testify that the time is near. These include:

An increase in knowledge - Daniel 12:4

An increase in demonic activity (Spiritulism, Satanism, etc..)- Rev 16:13,14, 1 Timothy 4:1-7

An increase in lawlessness - 2 Timothy 3:1-7

Departure from the faith - 2 Timothy 4:3,4

Rise of False teachings (evolution) - 2 Peter 3:3-7

Increase in traffic (modern transport) - Nahum 2:4

Of all these signs, the one with the greatest finality is:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come. Matthew 24:14

We are admonished to study the signs and to pay attention. (Matthew 24:32-35) However, we are not to conclude that we can discern the day or the hour of His coming from these events. (Matthew 24:36). Moreover, if we study the nature of the coming of Christ and the purpose of His coming, then no one need be deceived. Yet, strange as it may seem, not a single mainline Christian church teaches the Biblical coming of Christ today. Most churches, if they preach about the second coming at all, preach a coming of Christ that will bring peace to the nations and wander about the earth that is no different especially when it comes to sin, but the Bible teaches a destruction of nations who mourn at His coming. Let us carefully examine the evidence we are given of how Christ will return:

And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they were looking steadfastly toward Heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, 'Ye men of Galilee; why stand ye gazing up into Heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into Heaven'.Acts 1:9-l l.

In the Clouds Together With His Angels:

Jesus was taken up into heaven by a cloud, and He will return in the clouds. The clouds refer to the angels of God that surround Him as can be seen in Hebrew parallelism.

The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels; the Lord is among them, as is Sinai, in the holy place. Psalm 68:17

...who maketh the clouds his chariots; who walketh upon the wings of the wind. Psalm 104:3

Jesus Himself promised that He would return with the clouds (the angels).

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.Matthew 24:30

...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels. 2 Thessalonians 1:7

When the Son of man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory.Matthew 25:31

The glory of Christ's coming surpasses anything we can imagine. He will return in the glory of His angels, and that of the Godhead:

...when He shall come in His own glory, and in His Father's and of the holy angels. Luke 9:26

The Second Coming Will be Universally Visible:

Behold He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him... Revelation 1:7

Christ warned against false comings of Christ that would not be universally visible.

Wherefore, if they shall say unto you, Behold he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers, believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.Matthew 24:26,27

...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

The Second Coming Will be Audible:

And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other.Matthew 24:31

The Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God... I Thessalonians 4:16

The Lord Will Not Come Down to the Earth, But Will Await the Redeemed in the Sky:

For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4:16,17

The Saints will be gathered together by angels and taken up into the air to meet the Lord in the sky. This is not a secret rapture as some believe.

And He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:31

At the second coming, Christ calls forth the dead and sends forth His angels to gather the elect, and together they meet Him in the air. Christ Himself does not come down to the earth - His feet do not touch the earth. His command to His angels is:

Gather my saints together unto me, those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.Psalm 50:5

So if we study and see what scripture tells us about Christs Second Coming, and understand how and what will occur, Satan will not be able to fool us not matter what he tries, and we will be prepared for Christ.

 

[CrowCross]

or do look around for a Christ that has come in the desert or in the Middle East and walks around on earth for a 1000 years? It used to be that all Christians believed that Christ would come to take them to heaven, but now it seems a false doctrine of having someone that claims to be Christ will appear and maybe go to Jerusalem and say the 'kingdom' is set up for the next 1000 years of the Millennium, and say everyone must come and 'worship him'.

So what is the truth on this from the word of God and why does it matter especially to Gods people. Whether one is pre-trib rapture, or mid-trib, or post-trib the question of the Millennium and what happens at it still has to be answered. What is the Millennium and where are Christ and the saints during the Millennium?

There are two possible answers for "Where are the saints and Christ during the Millennium?"

Christ is in heaven after having taken the saints to heaven at the rapture and second coming. So both Christ and the saints are in heaven for that time and the wicked are all dead, (with Satan and his angels confined to Earth and no one to tempt).

Or Christ and the saints are on Earth during that time and Christ holds the wicked that are there also under some restraints for 1000 years.

If the saints are not taken to heaven at the second coming, then it opens the door to a "world-wide fake" to happen where Satan presents a pre-emptive 'coming' to have everyone be shocked and surprised after that "staged" or Satan can simple come and go to Jerusalem and claim they are in 'glorified' bodies or state where sin no longer affects them.

So what does the Bible say of the true coming of Christ. It was Christ Himself that warned that false Messiahs or false Christs would stake their claims prior to the return of Jesus:

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew. 24:24

Numerous additional signs of the imminent return of Christ are given in the Scriptures which testify that the time is near. These include:

An increase in knowledge - Daniel 12:4

An increase in demonic activity (Spiritulism, Satanism, etc..)- Rev 16:13,14, 1 Timothy 4:1-7

An increase in lawlessness - 2 Timothy 3:1-7

Departure from the faith - 2 Timothy 4:3,4

Rise of False teachings (evolution) - 2 Peter 3:3-7

Increase in traffic (modern transport) - Nahum 2:4

Of all these signs, the one with the greatest finality is:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come. Matthew 24:14

We are admonished to study the signs and to pay attention. (Matthew 24:32-35) However, we are not to conclude that we can discern the day or the hour of His coming from these events. (Matthew 24:36). Moreover, if we study the nature of the coming of Christ and the purpose of His coming, then no one need be deceived. Yet, strange as it may seem, not a single mainline Christian church teaches the Biblical coming of Christ today. Most churches, if they preach about the second coming at all, preach a coming of Christ that will bring peace to the nations and wander about the earth that is no different especially when it comes to sin, but the Bible teaches a destruction of nations who mourn at His coming. Let us carefully examine the evidence we are given of how Christ will return:

And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they were looking steadfastly toward Heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, 'Ye men of Galilee; why stand ye gazing up into Heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into Heaven'.Acts 1:9-l l.

In the Clouds Together With His Angels:

Jesus was taken up into heaven by a cloud, and He will return in the clouds. The clouds refer to the angels of God that surround Him as can be seen in Hebrew parallelism.

The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels; the Lord is among them, as is Sinai, in the holy place. Psalm 68:17

...who maketh the clouds his chariots; who walketh upon the wings of the wind. Psalm 104:3

Jesus Himself promised that He would return with the clouds (the angels).

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.Matthew 24:30

...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels. 2 Thessalonians 1:7

When the Son of man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory.Matthew 25:31

The glory of Christ's coming surpasses anything we can imagine. He will return in the glory of His angels, and that of the Godhead:

...when He shall come in His own glory, and in His Father's and of the holy angels. Luke 9:26

The Second Coming Will be Universally Visible:

Behold He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him... Revelation 1:7

Christ warned against false comings of Christ that would not be universally visible.

Wherefore, if they shall say unto you, Behold he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers, believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.Matthew 24:26,27

...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

The Second Coming Will be Audible:

And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other.Matthew 24:31

The Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God... I Thessalonians 4:16

The Lord Will Not Come Down to the Earth, But Will Await the Redeemed in the Sky:

For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4:16,17

The Saints will be gathered together by angels and taken up into the air to meet the Lord in the sky. This is not a secret rapture as some believe.

And He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:31

At the second coming, Christ calls forth the dead and sends forth His angels to gather the elect, and together they meet Him in the air. Christ Himself does not come down to the earth - His feet do not touch the earth. His command to His angels is:

Gather my saints together unto me, those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.Psalm 50:5

So if we study and see what scripture tells us about Christs Second Coming, and understand how and what will occur, Satan will not be able to fool us not matter what he tries, and we will be prepared for Christ.

You said a lot.
Christ comes back twice....First time at the rapture where the christians meet Jesus in the air then return with Christ to heaven. The 7 year tribulation then proceeds....the second time Christ comes He actually stands on earth...this is after/at the end of the 7 year tribulation.

AS to the clouds being angels....I'm not convinced.

 

[EarlyActs]

or do look around for a Christ that has come in the desert or in the Middle East and walks around on earth for a 1000 years? It used to be that all Christians believed that Christ would come to take them to heaven, but now it seems a false doctrine of having someone that claims to be Christ will appear and maybe go to Jerusalem and say the 'kingdom' is set up for the next 1000 years of the Millennium, and say everyone must come and 'worship him'.

So what is the truth on this from the word of God and why does it matter especially to Gods people. Whether one is pre-trib rapture, or mid-trib, or post-trib the question of the Millennium and what happens at it still has to be answered. What is the Millennium and where are Christ and the saints during the Millennium?

There are two possible answers for "Where are the saints and Christ during the Millennium?"

Christ is in heaven after having taken the saints to heaven at the rapture and second coming. So both Christ and the saints are in heaven for that time and the wicked are all dead, (with Satan and his angels confined to Earth and no one to tempt).

Or Christ and the saints are on Earth during that time and Christ holds the wicked that are there also under some restraints for 1000 years.

If the saints are not taken to heaven at the second coming, then it opens the door to a "world-wide fake" to happen where Satan presents a pre-emptive 'coming' to have everyone be shocked and surprised after that "staged" or Satan can simple come and go to Jerusalem and claim they are in 'glorified' bodies or state where sin no longer affects them.

So what does the Bible say of the true coming of Christ. It was Christ Himself that warned that false Messiahs or false Christs would stake their claims prior to the return of Jesus:

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew. 24:24

Numerous additional signs of the imminent return of Christ are given in the Scriptures which testify that the time is near. These include:

An increase in knowledge - Daniel 12:4

An increase in demonic activity (Spiritulism, Satanism, etc..)- Rev 16:13,14, 1 Timothy 4:1-7

An increase in lawlessness - 2 Timothy 3:1-7

Departure from the faith - 2 Timothy 4:3,4

Rise of False teachings (evolution) - 2 Peter 3:3-7

Increase in traffic (modern transport) - Nahum 2:4

Of all these signs, the one with the greatest finality is:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come. Matthew 24:14

We are admonished to study the signs and to pay attention. (Matthew 24:32-35) However, we are not to conclude that we can discern the day or the hour of His coming from these events. (Matthew 24:36). Moreover, if we study the nature of the coming of Christ and the purpose of His coming, then no one need be deceived. Yet, strange as it may seem, not a single mainline Christian church teaches the Biblical coming of Christ today. Most churches, if they preach about the second coming at all, preach a coming of Christ that will bring peace to the nations and wander about the earth that is no different especially when it comes to sin, but the Bible teaches a destruction of nations who mourn at His coming. Let us carefully examine the evidence we are given of how Christ will return:

And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they were looking steadfastly toward Heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, 'Ye men of Galilee; why stand ye gazing up into Heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into Heaven'.Acts 1:9-l l.

In the Clouds Together With His Angels:

Jesus was taken up into heaven by a cloud, and He will return in the clouds. The clouds refer to the angels of God that surround Him as can be seen in Hebrew parallelism.

The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels; the Lord is among them, as is Sinai, in the holy place. Psalm 68:17

...who maketh the clouds his chariots; who walketh upon the wings of the wind. Psalm 104:3

Jesus Himself promised that He would return with the clouds (the angels).

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.Matthew 24:30

...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels. 2 Thessalonians 1:7

When the Son of man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory.Matthew 25:31

The glory of Christ's coming surpasses anything we can imagine. He will return in the glory of His angels, and that of the Godhead:

...when He shall come in His own glory, and in His Father's and of the holy angels. Luke 9:26

The Second Coming Will be Universally Visible:

Behold He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him... Revelation 1:7

Christ warned against false comings of Christ that would not be universally visible.

Wherefore, if they shall say unto you, Behold he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers, believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.Matthew 24:26,27

...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

The Second Coming Will be Audible:

And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other.Matthew 24:31

The Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God... I Thessalonians 4:16

The Lord Will Not Come Down to the Earth, But Will Await the Redeemed in the Sky:

For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4:16,17

The Saints will be gathered together by angels and taken up into the air to meet the Lord in the sky. This is not a secret rapture as some believe.

And He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:31

At the second coming, Christ calls forth the dead and sends forth His angels to gather the elect, and together they meet Him in the air. Christ Himself does not come down to the earth - His feet do not touch the earth. His command to His angels is:

Gather my saints together unto me, those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.Psalm 50:5

So if we study and see what scripture tells us about Christs Second Coming, and understand how and what will occur, Satan will not be able to fool us not matter what he tries, and we will be prepared for Christ.

The reign of Christ has been going some time (Ps 145 says he was already). The announcements of John the B were for an arriving king. The resurrection itself was the Davidic enthronement. Acts 2:30

The thing is not to look for a location or 'external form.' It is def not a time in geographic Jerusalem that is coming. The mode of the kingdom is that Christ deserves to be honored by all rulers and fishermen alike. That is how it is painted in Acts 2--4, which is why ch 1:8 tells us not to try to figure out "when" it is. That desire is squashed and replaced with the fact that we are made a kingdom of priests now: you will be clothed (with priest clothing) when authority will come upon you (in the declaration of the enthronement and gospel of Jesus).

Material like Mt 24 to v29 is about 1st cent. Judea; then, after these things, the day of wrath was to come, but 2 Peter 3 explains why it was delayed.

 

[Eleanor]

You said a lot.
Christ comes back twice....First time at the rapture where the christians meet Jesus in the air

When was the resurrection?

then return with Christ to heaven. The 7 year tribulation then proceeds....the second time Christ comes He actually stands on earth...this is after/at the end of the 7 year tribulation.

So there is another resurrection of the new folks seven years later?

Not according to Peter and Paul.

1) Heb 9:27-28 - There will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming in judgment, for Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge, and not in between. Just as man dies once and then faces judgment, so Jesus appears once to die and once to judge, at which judgment he will "bring salvation."

2) Ac 3:21 - Peter states that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything," which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness (2 Pe 3:10-13). There is no appearing of Jesus for a rapture prior to his coming to restore all things at the end. (Rev 21:-4)

3) 1 Pe 1:5, 13 - Our coming SALVATION (of Ro 8:18-23, 1 Co 15:52-58) will be given to us when Jesus is revealed; i.e., the rapture at JUDGMENT.

Note that in Heb 9:27-28 Jesus brings salvation when he appears, and in 1 Pe 1:5, 13, Jesus brings salvation when he is revealed, so that his appearing and his revealing are the same thing; i.e., his coming in judgment.
Therefore, there can be no appearing for the rapture separate from his revealing at the judgment.

4) 2 Th 1:6-10 - Not according to Paul, where God will punish their persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7), which is his coming in judgment (v.8). The early NT saints believed Jesus would return in their lifetime, and Paul sees himself on earth when Jesus comes in judgment, not as raptured seven years prior to Jesus' coming to judge the world.

5) 2 Th 2:1-8 - Nor according to Paul, where there will be no rapture until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (v.3), where at that coming and rapture Jesus will destroy the man of lawlessness (v.8), repeating what he said in 1:6-10, thereby clearly and specifically locating the rapture when Jesus comes in judgment

6) Likewise, the NT allows no time for a third coming of Jesus in the following NT teaching where all occur together:

Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Th 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats; i.e., all mankind (Mt 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the necessary conclusion is:
resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

The NT locks up the rapture, second coming and judgment of the sheep and the goats (all mankind) all together.

To locate any of them at any other time is to contradict the above NT teaching authoritative to the church, which overwhelmingly presents
only one coming of Jesus at the end of time.

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming

The rapture and second coming are two separate events.

At the second coming Jesus is riding a white horse...at the rapture there is no white horse.

 

[EarlyActs]

The rapture and second coming are two separate events.

At the second coming Jesus is riding a white horse...at the rapture there is no white horse.

There is no drawn out sequence in most NT references to the final day.

 

[Eleanor]

The rapture and second coming are two separate events.

At the second coming Jesus is riding a white horse...at the rapture there is no white horse.

The NT does not agree with your literal interpretation of prophetic riddles ("dark sayings," hidden meanings) not spoken clearly (Nu 12:1-8).
The NT presents the following as occurring in the same time frame.

Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture. (1 Th 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the necessary conclusion is:
resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

Jesus teaches one resurrection, of the sheep and the goats (Mt 25:31-33) which is all mankind,
and in the above, the NT locks up the rapture, second coming and the judgment of all mankind with that resurrection,
therefore, the rapture and the second coming to earth occur in the same time frame.

To locate any of them at any other time is to contradict the above NT teaching authoritative to the church.
Apostolic teaching authoritative to the church allows for the rapture and second coming only in the same time frame.

 

[Grumix88]

We stay underground and until Jesus rise us up from the ground.

 

[CrowCross]

There is no drawn out sequence in most NT references to the final day.

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[CrowCross]

The NT does not agree with your literal interpretation of prophetic riddles ("dark sayings," hidden meanings) not spoken clearly (Nu 12:1-8).
The NT presents the following as occurring in the same time frame.

Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture. (1 Th 4:16).

True

Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41).

This verse isn't what is presented in Rev....

11Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood,c and His name is The Word of God.

14The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. 15And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter.d He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-33).

The rapture isn't the 2nd coming

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the necessary conclusion is:
resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

Jesus teaches one resurrection, of the sheep and the goats (Mt 25:31-33) which is all mankind,
and in the above, the NT locks up the rapture, second coming and the judgment of all mankind with that resurrection,
therefore, the rapture and the second coming to earth occur in the same time frame.

No it doesn't

As I said before....no white horse at the rapture.

To locate any of them at any other time is to contradict the above NT teaching authoritative to the church.
Apostolic teaching authoritative to the church allows for the rapture and second coming only in the same time frame.

 

[Eleanor]

True

This verse isn't what is presented in Rev....

Revelation is prophecy given in riddles ("dark sayings," hidden meanings) and not clearly (Nu 12:1-8).
Prophecy is not literal, it is figurative.
Your personal literal interpretation of this figurative riddle is in contradiction to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church.
Being in contradiction of apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, your interpretation of that figurative riddle is in error.

11Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood,c and His name is The Word of God.
14The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. 15And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter.d He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The rapture isn't the 2nd coming

It is according to Jesus (Mt 25:31-33).

As I said before....no white horse at the rapture.

Being subject to more than one interpretation, prophetic riddles do not govern apostolic teaching; e.g., Mt 25:31-33.

 

[EarlyActs]

I'm not sure what you mean.

NT passages about the end (apart from the heavy Judaic symbolism of the Rev) have no elaborate scheme of Judaic events: Rom 2, 8, I Cor 15, Acts 17, 2 Peter 3, I Thess 2, 4, 2 Th 1, 2, Heb 9. The Lord comes, defeats evil and destroys the place quickly, and we are quickly with him in the NHNE.

Every indication is that this ending was to take place 'right after these (1st cent. Judean) things' of Mt 24:29. Except that a delay was allowed--and as we now know, was exercised.

This is a hermeneutical argument why the Rev's 1st page (at hand, soon) is meant in the ordinary sense. All of its events were upon them. There are countless references that are meant that way. Cp Lk 23:28 about asking the mountains to fall on the people of that biological generation, which at the same time is a quote from a prophet.

Once the 'city where the Lord was crucified' is pulverized in the Rev 18, the 'wedding feast' takes place and the 'very long reign' (the 1000 years) can take place, until the end of time when the NHNE replaces it.

 

[CrowCross]

Revelation is prophecy given in riddles ("dark sayings," hidden meanings) and not clearly (Nu 12:1-8).
Prophecy is not literal, it is figurative.
Your personal literal interpretation of this figurative riddle is in contradiction to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church.
Being in contradiction of apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, your interpretation of that figurative riddle is in error.

It is according to Jesus (Mt 25:31-33).

Being subject to more than one interpretation, prophetic riddles do not govern apostolic teaching; e.g., Mt 25:31-33.

OK, there was no RIDDLE of a white horse at Christ ascension.

 

[Eleanor]

OK, there was no RIDDLE of a white horse at Christ ascension.

Meaning you interpret the riddle incorrectly.

 

[CrowCross]

Meaning you interpret the riddle incorrectly.

No...your white horse "riddle" doesn't apply to Christ ascension. You are shoe-horning theology.

 

[Eleanor]

No...your white horse "riddle" doesn't apply to Christ ascension. You are shoe-horning theology.

It's not my riddle, I didn't write the Biblical text.

 

[CrowCross]

It's not my riddle, I didn't write the Biblical text.

It's not really a riddle....it's obvious. A understanding of your theology on this issue requires it to be a riddle.

 

[Marilyn C]

or do look around for a Christ that has come in the desert or in the Middle East and walks around on earth for a 1000 years? It used to be that all Christians believed that Christ would come to take them to heaven, but now it seems a false doctrine of having someone that claims to be Christ will appear and maybe go to Jerusalem and say the 'kingdom' is set up for the next 1000 years of the Millennium, and say everyone must come and 'worship him'.

So what is the truth on this from the word of God and why does it matter especially to Gods people. Whether one is pre-trib rapture, or mid-trib, or post-trib the question of the Millennium and what happens at it still has to be answered. What is the Millennium and where are Christ and the saints during the Millennium?

Hi Hobie,

That is so true as to this different good news of our inheritance becoming popular. I believe God`s word tells us that -

THE BODY OF CHRIST`S INHERITANCE IS IN HEAVEN.

Our inheritance, our hope, our place, our citizenship, all of which are IN HEAVEN.

`...to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you.` (1 Peter 1: 4 )

` ...because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of truth..`(Col. 1: 5)

` ...and raised us up together and made to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.`(Eph. 2: 6)

` For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly await for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.` (Phil. 3: 20)

(New King James)

 

[Hobie]

When was the resurrection?

So there is another resurrection of the new folks seven years later?

Not according to Peter and Paul.

1) Heb 9:27-28 - There will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming in judgment, for Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge, and not in between. Just as man dies once and then faces judgment, so Jesus appears once to die and once to judge, at which judgment he will "bring salvation."

2) Ac 3:21 - Peter states that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything," which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness (2 Pe 3:10-13). There is no appearing of Jesus for a rapture prior to his coming to restore all things at the end. (Rev 21:-4)

3) 1 Pe 1:5, 13 - Our coming SALVATION (of Ro 8:18-23, 1 Co 15:52-58) will be given to us when Jesus is revealed; i.e., the rapture at JUDGMENT.

Note that in Heb 9:27-28 Jesus brings salvation when he appears, and in 1 Pe 1:5, 13, Jesus brings salvation when he is revealed, so that his appearing and his revealing are the same thing; i.e., his coming in judgment.
Therefore, there can be no appearing for the rapture separate from his revealing at the judgment.

4) 2 Th 1:6-10 - Not according to Paul, where God will punish their persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7), which is his coming in judgment (v.8). The early NT saints believed Jesus would return in their lifetime, and Paul sees himself on earth when Jesus comes in judgment, not as raptured seven years prior to Jesus' coming to judge the world.

5) 2 Th 2:1-8 - Nor according to Paul, where there will be no rapture until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (v.3), where at that coming and rapture Jesus will destroy the man of lawlessness (v.8), repeating what he said in 1:6-10, thereby clearly and specifically locating the rapture when Jesus comes in judgment

6) Likewise, the NT allows no time for a third coming of Jesus in the following NT teaching where all occur together:

Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Th 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats; i.e., all mankind (Mt 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the necessary conclusion is:
resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

The NT locks up the rapture, second coming and judgment of the sheep and the goats (all mankind) all together.

To locate any of them at any other time is to contradict the above NT teaching authoritative to the church, which overwhelmingly presents
only one coming of Jesus at the end of time.

Amen, we must read our Bible and know Gods truth, rather than fables and false ideas of men.

 

[Wordsmith]

At the second coming Jesus is riding a white horse...at the rapture there is no white horse.

This fact does not prove what you claim. If you only look at differences in all of the coming of the Lord passages we could have multiple comings. Just because one detail is mentioned in one coming passage and left out of another does not mean they are not talking about the same thing. Christ is only returning one time in our future .

To the OP's point ,no we do not return to heaven for 7 or 3 1/2 years. When Christ comes He sets up His kingdom and we rule and reign with Him right here on this earth and in the new earth.

I know there are a lot of assumptions about scriptures and what the say or mean but I challenge anyone to produce a scripture that clearly states raptured and or resurrected saints return to heaven for any period of time!

There is no pre-trib rapture of the saints. Before everyone piles on in. disagreement come with your scripture that's clearly says we go back to heaven.

If you disagree when I say we do not go to heaven for eternity show me where Christ or even the Father are in the current heaven for eternity.

Read Revelation chapter 21