Does "apostasy" mean "departure" which means "rapture"?

[CrowCross]

No, I think it means just what it says in 1 Thess. The dead in Christ resurrected and those who remain alive, glorified, rising to meet him as he returns. I have gone over this at least three times and as yet you have failed to address it or even acknowledge that it was said. So, no you have not established any such thing as a pre-trib rapture. The anti-Christ appears prior to Christ's return.

Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day (Christ's return)will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction---

You have to go to really antiquated translations to find any that say "departure" in stead of rebellion. And even those that use "falling away" or "apostasy" are not giving an accurate description of what is meant. Why? Because it is a rebellion that is described in the rest of that sentence and what follows. In order for it to be a pre-trib rapture the idea would have had to come completely out of the blue, no where else described or mentioned in Scripture.

If he is returning in 1 Thess and the resurrected dead and the glorified who remain alive have risen to meet him, they must return with him, for it says they will remain with him forever, and he is coming, and what we see in 2 Thess 2:3 onward would have already happened. Including the anti-christ being destroyed. Revelation is not a chronological seven year event. You say "departure" in verse 3 is talking about the rapture and a pre-trib rapture at that, and you have not demonstrated that either of those things are correct Bible' interpretation. It has been shown that it can't be.

Your big take away point is...You have to go to really antiquated translations to find any that say "departure" in stead of rebellion.

You haven't even begun to explain why it means a rebellion. Your only aswer is Strongs says so. OK, then tell us why?

Strongs says....Usage: The term "apostasia" refers to a departure or defection from a previously held position....yet you seem to deny departure is a proper noun......will you admitt "departure" like the early original translation is proper?

I have shown that the verb usage of the word departure that was derived from ἀφίστημι (aphistēmi)...means "to stand away" or "to depart."
From the list here only 3 out of the 14 show a spiritual departure...all...the rest speak of a physical departure.

Will you please explain why departure used in 2 Thes 2:3 HAS to be a spiritual departure...please provide the context of the previous verses in your response. After all I have and you haven't adequately responded to it.

Have you watched the video?

 

[Tambora]

Included in the topic is....we have several pre 1611 KJV translations that use the word "departure"....for some reason the KJV switched to the word "falling away".

Geneva Bible of 1587
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Coverdale Bible of 1535
Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

Tyndale Bible of 1526
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1539 Cramer Bible
Let no man deceaue you by eny meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte ther come a departynge fyrst, and that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon,

Same is true with the 1384 Wycliffe Bible as well as the 1576 Breeches Bible, 1583 Beeze Bible.
From what I understand even Jerome in the 4th century translation of the Latin Vulgate used the latin word for departure.

Why did the 1611 King James translators change "departure" to the term....'Falling away"?

As my previous post show the root word from which we get the noun and verb speak of a departure.

YES, and let me say it again...YES...departure can be physical as well as spiritual.

Why should the verse be translated as spiritual?

Oh dear me!
It's not that the word "apostasia" cannot be translated as "departure", it is concerning what it is a departure from.
Let me repeat ------ the Greek Septuagint never uses the Greek word apostasia for a physical departure, it is always about a religious departure or a political departure.

And the NT only uses the word apostasia in one other verse (acts 21:21) and it is of a religious departure.

You would do best to take your biblical understanding of word meanings from all the other uses of the word in the Koine Greek scriptures.

Even the pretrib scholar Paul Feinberg teaches, “If one searches for the uses of the noun “apostasy” in the 355 occurrences over the 300-year period between the second century B.C. and the first century A.D., one will not find a single instance where this word refers to a physical departure.”


The Greek word aphistemi is used for both a physical or spiritual departure, but not apostasia .

Why did the 1611 King James translators change "departure" to the term....'Falling away"?

So dummies would not confuse it with a physical departure instead of being rebellious towards the Lord.

 

[Tambora]

That day is referring to the tribulation that occurs after the rapture. The Day of the Lord is the tribulation.

Nope.
Verse 1 clearly states what "that day" will be ------ the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him.

2 Thes 2
1) Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,
2) not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3) Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,



Then go on down to verse 12:

2Th 2:12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

That's the apostasy (ie. those that change the truth for a lie and rebel against the Lord).

 

[Arial]

Your big take away point is...You have to go to really antiquated translations to find any that say "departure" in stead of rebellion.

You haven't even begun to explain why it means a rebellion. Your only aswer is Strongs says so. OK, then tell us why?

That wasn't my answer and yes I have. Look.

Look at the passage. Who is rebelling? Those opposed to God. What are they rebelling against? God and the people of God. More than anything else, that suggests a massive attack on the church of Christ. In any case, Paul is dealing with false teachers who had come into the church. The false teaching at that particular time was that Christ had already returned. Some still teach that of course, but another false teaching has come into the church concerning his return, called dispensationalism.

but "rebellion" best suits what we see in the content, which is a violent rebellion, the last and final attempt to "win the Wars" by Satan. It is much akin to Psalm 2 and all those who rage against God. It will include those who abandon their professed faith, but the use of "apostasy" tends to set the focus on that aspect and not the larger picture. "Departure" would be applied in the same way as apostasy. What none of them would even remotely imply is a pre-trib removal of all Christians from the earth. The idea is utterly alien to the text.

Because it is a rebellion that is described in the rest of that sentence and what follows. In order for it to be a pre-trib rapture the idea would have had to come completely out of the blue, no where else described or mentioned in Scripture.

 

[Arial]

Will you please explain why departure used in 2 Thes 2:3 HAS to be a spiritual departure...please provide the context of the previous verses in your response. After all I have and you haven't adequately responded to it.

I NEVER SAID IT WAS!!! I SAID IT WAS NOT!!!! Is the problem a failure to read or a failure to comprehend?

The gathering is seen in 1 Thess. The resurrected dead and those remaining alive changed, meet Him In the air. What happens with them and Jesus then? You have not even bothered to deal directly with 1 Thess. That is a sign of someone who does not want to change their beliefs no matter how much evidence is given that What they say makes no Biblical sense, and has no intention of doing so. There is no departure that you are calling the rapture. You have been shown that too.

It is a rapture but what happens at that time? The resurrected dead in Christ rise to meet Jesus as he is returning. Those who remain alive as he is returning are caught up to meet him in the air and according to 1 Cor 15 are glorified just as the dead in Christ are.

Does Jesus go back up and the saints go back up with him? No, for it says he is returning? Does Jesus continue down and the saints continue up? No. For it says they will be with him forever .

What's left as an option? They return with him. The King's victorious army----they have overcome through the power of the King. The last enemy, death. defeated.

A pre-trib rapture followed by a seven year tribulation, followed by a thousand year earthly reign of Christ in Jerusalem, will not fit that picture. No matter how one tries to make the pre-trib rapture etc. fit. It just can't be done. What dispensationalism does is divide the kingdom of God.

Our being gathered to him is physical, not spiritual as seen in 1 Thess 4.

No, I think it means just what it says in 1 Thess. The dead in Christ resurrected and those who remain alive, glorified, rising to meet him as he returns. I have gone over this at least three times and as yet you have failed to address it or even acknowledge that it was said. So, no you have not established any such thing as a pre-trib rapture. The anti-Christ appears prior to Christ's return.

If he is returning in 1 Thess and the resurrected dead and the glorified who remain alive have risen to meet him, they must return with him, for it says they will remain with him forever, and he is coming, and what we see in 2 Thess 2:3 onward would have already happened. Including the anti-christ being destroyed. Revelation is not a chronological seven year event. You say "departure" in verse 3 is talking about the rapture and a pre-trib rapture at that, and you have not demonstrated that either of those things are correct Bible' interpretation. It has been shown that it can't be.

 

[CrowCross]

Oh dear me!
It's not that the word "apostasia" cannot be translated as "departure", it is concerning what it is a departure from.

I'm glad you understand that.

Let me repeat ------ the Greek Septuagint never uses the Greek word apostasia for a physical departure, it is always about a religious departure or a political departure.

Did you not read what I said about the verb of the word apostasia? The bible uses it 14 times and 11 of the 14 refer to a physical departure.

And the NT only uses the word apostasia in one other verse (acts 21:21) and it is of a religious departure.

You would do best to take your biblical understanding of word meanings from all the other uses of the word in the Koine Greek scriptures.

I have....Let me remind you of the verb usage. Click on the link for word 868.....then read the verses on the right. When you're done let me know if departure is only local.

Even the pretrib scholar Paul Feinberg teaches, “If one searches for the uses of the noun “apostasy” in the 355 occurrences over the 300-year period between the second century B.C. and the first century A.D., one will not find a single instance where this word refers to a physical departure.”

???????

The Greek word aphistemi is used for both a physical or spiritual departure, but not apostasia .



So dummies would not confuse it with a physical departure instead of being rebellious towards the Lord.

What is the context of those verses about? What is the gathering?

 

[CrowCross]

Nope.
Verse 1 clearly states what "that day" will be ------ the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him.

The gathering together is the rapture when christians depart.

2 Thes 2
1) Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,
2) not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3) Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

The day spoken of is the tribulation. The departure happens first. Christians will be delivered from that hour of testing.

Then go on down to verse 12:

2Th 2:12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

That's the apostasy (ie. those that change the truth for a lie and rebel against the Lord).

This "apostasy"...rebellion you speak of has always been happening. It doesn't fit.

 

[CrowCross]

That wasn't my answer and yes I have. Look.

The "rebellion" you speak of has always been happening. That's why departure is a much better word. The departure hasn't happen yet.

 

[CrowCross]

I NEVER SAID IT WAS!!! I SAID IT WAS NOT!!!! Is the problem a failure to read or a failure to comprehend?

See last response.

Have you watched the video I linked to?

 

[Arial]

See last response.

Have you watched the video I linked to?

No I have not watched the video and I don't intend to. Have you watched any that I have posted or anyone else? My conversation is with you and it is you who should be addressing the issues brought up.

And "see last response" is so wide open as to what you are talking about as to be meaningless. Whose last response and to who?

 

[CrowCross]

No I have not watched the video and I don't intend to.

Of course you haven't.

Have you watched any that I have posted or anyone else?

I almost always watch the other videos..or a portion of them...or skim through them if they're too long.

Why have you not checked it out? Seen why the departure = rapture is so strong. Where are the faults in the video?

 

[Arial]

The "rebellion" you speak of has always been happening. That's why departure is a much better word. The departure hasn't happen yet.

Departure from what?

The rebellion has been happening since Gen 3, but Paul is talking about something specific, that happens before Christ returns. To use "departure" in todays understanding of the word leaves the hearers of Paul's words scratching their heads and saying, "Huh?" Because there is no mention there or anywhere else in the scriptures OT or NT that mentions a specific seven year tribulation or a pre-trib rapture. And I know you think Revelation does and certain passages in Daniel, but that is an interpretive issue and also using the OT to interpret the NT. However, Revelation had not been written when Paul wrote that letter to the Thessalonians. What Paul does talk about that will happen before the Lord returns is a massive rebellion and the revealing of the man of lawlessness, and his utter destruction by Christ (before he returns) of him and all the rebellious. And that rebellion plays out on earth as an attack against God and his people---the church.

Ps 2




Why do the nations rage
and the peoples lot in vain?
2;The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying,
3;“Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision.
5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6 “As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”

 

[Arial]

Of course you haven't.

I almost always watch the other videos..or a portion of them...or skim through them if they're too long.

Why have you not checked it out? Seen why the departure = rapture is so strong. Where are the faults in the video?

I do not have time to watch it. It comes from a dispensationalist view, which I already know. He is not going to say anything that you have not already said about "departure". He will not be able to support the dispensationalists view for it referring to a pre-trib rapture anymore than you are able to. (It simply is not in the passage or anywhere else in the scriptures and would make absolutely no sense for Paul to be saying that to people who would have no idea what he was Taking about---since he doesn't say.) Because the idea of a pre-trib rapture being in that sentence has already been debunked and you won't deal with the debunking. You simply repeat yourself as a response to the debunking.

WHY?

 

[Eleanor]

Your big take away point is...You have to go to really antiquated translations to find any that say "departure" in stead of rebellion.

You haven't even begun to explain why it means a rebellion. Your only aswer is Strongs says so. OK, then tell us why?

You're on the wrong side of western history.

Apostasia throughout church (and western) history has always meant a defecting, a rebellion from something believed or maintained.

Check it out.

 

[CrowCross]

Departure from what?

Are you seriously asking that question? Really???? Are you?

The rebellion has been happening since Gen 3, but Paul is talking about something specific, that happens before Christ returns. To use "departure" in todays understanding of the word leaves the hearers of Paul's words scratching their heads and saying, "Huh?" Because there is no mention there or anywhere else in the scriptures OT or NT that mentions a specific seven year tribulation or a pre-trib rapture. And I know you think Revelation does and certain passages in Daniel, but that is an interpretive issue and also using the OT to interpret the NT. However, Revelation had not been written when Paul wrote that letter to the Thessalonians. What Paul does talk about that will happen before the Lord returns is a massive rebellion and the revealing of the man of lawlessness, and his utter destruction by Christ (before he returns) of him and all the rebellious. And that rebellion plays out on earth as an attack against God and his people---the church.

Paul just spoke of the rapture in verse 1. He went into more detail in the 1 Thes 4 epistle. No need to present a thorough re-cap....the departure is the gathering which is also described as the rapture. Those addressed in the letter knew that.

Ps 2




Why do the nations rage
and the peoples lot in vain?
2;The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying,
3;“Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision.
5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6 “As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”

 

[CrowCross]

You simply repeat yourself as a response to the debunking.

Then I guess I'm done with you on this topic.

NEXT

 

[CrowCross]

You're on the wrong side of western history.

Apostasia throughout church (and western) history has always meant a defecting, a rebellion from something believed or maintained.

Check it out.

I have checked it out...why did you leave out the word departure like the earlier version used? Did they get the translation wrong?
Did you not mention it because you would then have to write about what "departure" means...knowing it often means a physical departure as I have demonstrated?

Did you watch the video or do you have the same excuse Arial has?

 

[Eleanor]

I have checked it out...why did you leave out the word departure like the earlier version used?

The Greek word is apostasia, which meaning can be seen throughout the history of the church; i.e., falling away, rebellion from belief. . .your revisionist meaning notwithstanding.

Did they get the translation wrong?
Did you not mention it because you would then have to write about what "departure" means...knowing it often means a physical departure as I have demonstrated?

Did you watch the video or do you have the same excuse Arial has?

And I could make a convincing video denying the divinity of Christ. . .which demonstrates absolutely nothing.

I have church history and Greek dictionary to give me the use and meaning of apsotasia, your revisionist theology (video) not-with-standing.

 

[Arial]

Then I guess I'm done with you on this topic.

NEXT

When someone never addresses posts given in rebuttal to an argument, never even touches the scriptures used to do so, continues to ignore them no matter how many times they are presented, and finally, still ignoreing them all, never even answering a simple question of "why?" announces they are done with the conversation----no one is fooled. They quit because they have been soundly rebutted by ignored scriptures, even see they have no basis for sticking to their position in light of said evidence, and cannot in any way support their position. But they are not going to be moved from what they have wed themselves to.

IOW truth doesn't matter at all.

 

[Eleanor]

For that day will not come, unless the DEPARTURE comes first,

So, apostasy...just what does the word mean?

The meaning of the word refers to ... "to stand away" or "to depart." I copied that directly from Strongs 646. apostasia

Study the use of the word in history. . .and that use is "to depart from what is believed or is held as fact."

No need to reinvent the wheel.

It is not, and never has been, a physical departure.

Enough already with historical ignorance and false assertions for the sake of your theology.