Does "apostasy" mean "departure" which means "rapture"?

[CrowCross]

When and if you learn how to read Revelation

Wow, that was extremely rude...especially for a christian. At that point I stopped reading your post.

 

[CrowCross]

Don't have to. . .the dictionary does that.
The word means defection (desertion of professed principles or faith).

Keep reading.
The word is only used twice...developing a definition from the mid-evil biblical usage may present problems.
In an earlier post I showed where several earlier translations used the word departure.

This word was derived from the root word mentioned in my previous post. I presented a link to that word....Strongs...and gave an example of where departure...a physical seperation was used in many instances.

To dat no one has been able to challenge that position.

You abuse a lot of language and Scripture to get your theology.

I would suggest you watch the video...there you will see the language was not abused.

 

[CrowCross]

You take as literal what is given in riddles and not clearly (i.e., prophecy, Nu 12:6-8).

This is no riddle. The chapter talks about the GATHERING in verse 1.
Verse 3 speaks of the gathering as a departure. See post 6 for versions that have used departure.

The riddle seem to be in your court.....just what is THE departure...or apostacy?
Keep in mind we've been seeing people, sects, church's depart from the faith since the get-go.

Notice the word THE is used...this indicates an event in time just as the next sentance presents the revealing of THE antiChrist.

 

[CrowCross]

Play the game your way??? Wondering from whom you learned that debate tactic.

I've presented my logic, thoughts, a video, scripture, Strongs and so on to show "departure" is a proper ranslation.

I've also mentioned departure can be a physical departure as well as a spiritual departure...tell me why I should believe it is a reference to a spiritual departure just prior to the antiChrist being revealed.

 

[Tambora]

Always?

Yes.

The root word has 14 occurrences . In Acts 12:10 as an example we see.... the angel departed from him. This is a physical departure.

Not the same word.
Greek words with the same root can have completely different meanings.

Do you consider the "rapture"...physical departure from the planet as atrocious? Is 1 Thes 4:16ish not the rapture?

I want you to understand what 2 Thes 2:3 says and means.

2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;​

You want people to believe that it says that day (rapture/departure) will not happen until after the apostasy (rapture/departure) and the revealing of the man of sin happens
That's idiotic when you try to convince people of the falsehood that the rapture doesn't happen until after the rapture happens.

 

[Mr GLee]

Nice theory.

But you didn't show how the word doesn't mean departure.
Once you admitt the word means departure....then we can look into if it's a spiritual or physical departure.

God looks upon the heart the unseen spiritual things. He alone who prepares the heart knows all the hearts of men.

The spiritual leads to the physical dying

It's not one or the other.

Galatians 3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, (letter Death) or by the hearing of faith ? (life)

Romans 7:9-11For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment (letter of the law death) came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment ,(letter of the law death) which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment (letter of the law death), deceived me, and by it (letter of the law death) slew me.

 

[Arial]

Wow, that was extremely rude...especially for a christian. At that point I stopped reading your post.

That is pretty rude in itself. But suit yourself. Blinders are comfortable but not helpful.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes.


Not the same word.
Greek words with the same root can have completely different meanings.

Included in the topic is....we have several pre 1611 KJV translations that use the word "departure"....for some reason the KJV switched to the word "falling away".

Geneva Bible of 1587
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Coverdale Bible of 1535
Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

Tyndale Bible of 1526
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1539 Cramer Bible
Let no man deceaue you by eny meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte ther come a departynge fyrst, and that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon,

Same is true with the 1384 Wycliffe Bible as well as the 1576 Breeches Bible, 1583 Beeze Bible.
From what I understand even Jerome in the 4th century translation of the Latin Vulgate used the latin word for departure.

Why did the 1611 King James translators change "departure" to the term....'Falling away"?

As my previous post show the root word from which we get the noun and verb speak of a departure.

YES, and let me say it again...YES...departure can be physical as well as spiritual.

Why should the verse be translated as spiritual?

 

[CrowCross]

want you to understand what 2 Thes 2:3 says and means.

2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
You want people to believe that it says that day (rapture/departure) will not happen until after the apostasy (rapture/departure) and the revealing of the man of sin happens
That's idiotic when you try to convince people of the falsehood that the rapture doesn't happen until after the rapture happens.

That day is referring to the tribulation that occurs after the rapture. The Day of the Lord is the tribulation.

 

[Arial]

YES, and let me say it again...YES...departure can be physical as well as spiritual.

Why should the verse be translated as spiritual?

It shouldn't be. Our being gathered to him is physical, not spiritual as seen in 1 Thess 4. But what is your point? Even you are claiming that it is physical by saying it refers to a pre-trib rapture. Unless you consider this pre-trib rapture to not be a literal rapture but only a spiritual one ---which makes no sense.

 

[CrowCross]

It shouldn't be. Our being gathered to him is physical, not spiritual as seen in 1 Thess 4. But what is your point? Even you are claiming that it is physical by saying it refers to a pre-trib rapture. Unless you consider this pre-trib rapture to not be a literal rapture but only a spiritual one ---which makes no sense.

The chapter starts off with the "gathering"...the rapture. Physical event. Yes?
The the chapter continues with the word "departure"...and is referring to what is presented in verse one. How s it not referring to the rapture?

Did you watch the video?

 

[Eleanor]

Keep reading.
The word is only used twice...developing a definition from the mid-evil biblical usage may present problems.

And parathalassios and epiouslos are used only once. . .so?

None of which has anything to do with meaning.

You're torturing the text for the sake of your theology.

In an earlier post I showed where several earlier translations used the word departure.

And?

This word was derived from the root word mentioned in my previous post. I presented a link to that word....Strongs...and gave an example of where departure...a physical seperation was used in many instances.
To dat eno one has been able to challenge that position.
I would suggest you watch the video...there you will see the language was not abused.

The issue is not the verb (departure), the issue is the prepositional phrase (from a physical location, or from a principle/belief/faith).

2 Th 2:3 is referring to a turning/falling away, forsaking of, departure from the faith, the same one Jesus foretold in Mt 24:10,
Neither Jesus nor Paul are referring to departure from a physical location.

 

[CrowCross]

You're torturing the text for the sake of your theology.

No, I have shown how I have kept it in context. Can you show me where I have tortured the scripture? Did you watch the video?

Why are christians afraid of the rapture???? It's like they're saying....we don't want a pre-trib rapture....we want the anti-christ. We want to go through the tribulation. Do you not know christians are not destined for that wrath? Christ will be keep from that hour of trial?

You may very well get your wish and miss the departure at the gathering....I hope not because that means you're not saved.

 

[Eleanor]

This is no riddle. The chapter talks about the GATHERING in verse 1.
Verse 3 speaks of the gathering as a departure. See post 6 for versions that have used departure.

Actually, the "rapture" is a "catching up."

The riddle seem to be in your court.....just what is THE departure...or apostacy?

Apostasia is a falling away/departure from/abandonment of the faith. . .the same one Jesus foretold in Mt 24:10.

Keep in mind we've been seeing people, sects, church's depart from the faith since the get-go.

Notice the word THE is used...this indicates an event in time just as the next sentance presents the revealing of THE antiChrist.

Indeed, but not in the numbers and droves as will be at the end.

 

[Eleanor]

No, I have shown how I have kept it in context. Can you show me where I have tortured the scripture? Did you watch the video?

Why are christians afraid of the rapture????

How did denying that apostasia means "rapture" turn into a denial of the rapture?
Your logic limps a little.

It's like they're saying....we don't want a pre-trib rapture....

You get much exercise jumping to conclusions?

And according to NT teaching, as distinct from prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:6-8), the rapture is not "pre-trib," it is "post-trib."

 

[CrowCross]

Actually, the "rapture" is a "catching up."

I agree. That event has been expressed several ways.

Apostasia is a falling away/departure from/abandonment of the faith. . .the same one Jesus foretold in Mt 24:10.

Or it can mean a physical departure.

Indeed, but not in the numbers and droves as will be at the end.

 

[Arial]

The chapter starts off with the "gathering"...the rapture. Physical event. Yes?
The the chapter continues with the word "departure"...and is referring to what is presented in verse one. How s it not referring to the rapture?

Did you watch the video?

But the gathering is no where said to pertain to a pre-trib rapture, gathering, departure, however you want to say it. That is what you must establish as being the case. And not with edicts of truth being whatever you say, or with preconceived beliefs.

 

[Eleanor]

I agree. That event has been expressed several ways.

Or it can mean a physical departure.

Not quite. . .

You quibble over a word (apostasia) which the church has known and used the meaning of since its beginning; i.e., "falling away, rebellion."

You don't get to re-write history for the sake of your personal theology.

 

[CrowCross]

But the gathering is no where said to pertain to a pre-trib rapture, gathering, departure, however you want to say it. That is what you must establish as being the case. And not with edicts of truth being whatever you say, or with preconceived beliefs.

I've already established it.

Verse 1 mentions the gathering....do you think they met for some sort of Thanksgiving day dinner like the Pilgrims and Indians did?
Verse 3 continues talking about the rapture calling it a THE departure....which happens just prior to THE Anti-Christ being revealed.

I've kept the chapter in context.

 

[Arial]

I've already established it.

Verse 1 mentions the gathering....do you think they met for some sort of Thanksgiving day dinner like the Pilgrims and Indians did?
Verse 3 continues talking about the rapture calling it a THE departure....which happens just prior to THE Anti-Christ being revealed.

I've kept the chapter in context.

No, I think it means just what it says in 1 Thess. The dead in Christ resurrected and those who remain alive, glorified, rising to meet him as he returns. I have gone over this at least three times and as yet you have failed to address it or even acknowledge that it was said. So, no you have not established any such thing as a pre-trib rapture. The anti-Christ appears prior to Christ's return.

Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day (Christ's return)will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction---

You have to go to really antiquated translations to find any that say "departure" in stead of rebellion. And even those that use "falling away" or "apostasy" are not giving an accurate description of what is meant. Why? Because it is a rebellion that is described in the rest of that sentence and what follows. In order for it to be a pre-trib rapture the idea would have had to come completely out of the blue, no where else described or mentioned in Scripture.

If he is returning in 1 Thess and the resurrected dead and the glorified who remain alive have risen to meet him, they must return with him, for it says they will remain with him forever, and he is coming, and what we see in 2 Thess 2:3 onward would have already happened. Including the anti-christ being destroyed. Revelation is not a chronological seven year event. You say "departure" in verse 3 is talking about the rapture and a pre-trib rapture at that, and you have not demonstrated that either of those things are correct Bible' interpretation. It has been shown that it can't be.