Distinction Between Regeneration and Justification

[Eleanor]

Sure.

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 8.

foreknown, Predestined, called, regenerated, (here, between regeneration and justified is conversion) justified/sanctification, glorification.

Would conversion be "faith."

 

[Eleanor]

I think regeneration and justification are distinct but not separate.

Justification/forensic righteousness being by faith and, therefore, faith preceding justification?

 

[Arial]

Justification/forensic righteousness being by faith and, therefore, faith preceding justification?

Well, you can't have justification without faith, but also the nanosecond you have faith you are justified. And in a sense it could be said that all of it exists within the regeneration, and is true, even though we have little understanding at that moment of birth of any of it, and we also take steps through it. But really it is all one big wow! It is just that it takes us time and study to discover all that happened in that wow. It does not wait for us to learn before it becomes true. We discover it. And then of course we try ever so hard to figure out which came first, the chicken or the egg.

 

[Eleanor]

The whole thing is nothing but "Religious Word Games". "Regeneration" seems to be the Calvinist "Buzz Word" as a work around for their "Total depravity" doctrine. For the rest of us it just means "Salvation" / Being Born Again.

Regeneration (Tit 3:5), faith (Eph 2:8), salvation (Ro 1:16), justification (Ro 4:25), sanctification (1 Th 4:3) are the words of God,
and the holier-than-God attitude which looks on them as "religious word games" is less than impressive to me.

God gave us the human mind with its God-given way/system of understanding.
I am perfectly happy to understand his truth with the system of understanding God gave us.
I have no need to go beyond it, being perfectly content with what he has ordained.
When he is ready for us to understand it apart from the system he has given us, he will give us such way.
(Which does not exclude work toward a better understanding of the Greek in which his NT revelation is written.)

In the meantime, I make no apologies for understanding God's truth in the way he has presented it and with the system he has given for that understanding.
And his way of presenting his salvation truth involves regeneration, faith, salvation, justification and sanctification as different operations.
I view resistance to those distinct operations as resistance to God's NT revelation.

And if Ro 8:7-8 is not a statement of unregenerate man's total depravity (absolute inability) to either obey or please God, then please compose a statement that would state such, that I may compare yours to the one God gave in his word to see if God's meaning is different than yours:

"The mind of the flesh (unregenerate sinful nature) is enmity against God, it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be.
And those of the flesh (unregenerate) cannot please God." (Ro 8:7-8)

 

[Carbon]

Would conversion be "faith."

It’s a change of the will, turning from sin with a desire to live for God. This change of course is rooted in regeneration

 

[Eleanor]

It’s a change of the will, turning from sin with a desire to live for God. This change of course is rooted in regeneration

That's repentance, right?

 

[Carbon]

That's repentance, right?

It might be good if you read this.

Repentance and Conversion | Monergism

by George Whitefield"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the

www.monergism.com

 

[EarlyActs]

One cannot be justified without being regenerated. Justification is a legal standing before God and is only obtained through faith in the person and work of Christ. His work on the cross as our substitute, satisfied God's justice against our sin. Therefore we are declared just by virtue of Christ's righteousness.

And one cannot see or enter the kingdom of God unless they are born again (John 3)---regenerated. Regeneration results in the work of Christ being applied to the person---justification.

Seeing the kingdom is an issue for those in Judaism who could not, actually.

"Regeneration results in the work being applied..."? I don't follow this. The debt of sin and the dirt of doing it are two very different things, except where the guilt of the debt makes us try to clear the debt religiously. You could say the debt of sin otherwise is a totally different force.

Church songs have preserved the difference of debt and stain:
Rock of Ages: "Be for me a double cure; save me from sin's guilt and power."
Oh For A Thousand Tongues: "He breaks the pow’r of canceled sin,".
Nothing But the Blood Of Jesus:...

There is a link between cancelation and power, like in Rom 6: why would we do what brought us death before? Ie, the gift of justification is so sweet that why go on in sinful actions?

In "Nothing" most of the verses deal with the debt, but the rest and chorus is about being washed, overcoming. Here are the verbs that match debt: pardon, plea, atone, (no) merit, my righteousness. If you need further financial analogy, justification is like having a life insurance policy, regeneration is like making the monthly payment. That monthly payment is not a debt (most policies value is far above what is paid in), but it is a participation that admits it is necessary when there are no other resources.

I do not find a mystical blood-power in the NT. It is for debt, for atonement. Sometimes regeneration is a task, a battle that we are to master, to work out on our own.

Since 'applying' Christ's righteousness has to do with debt, I do not accept the wording 'regeneration applies the work of Christ to the person.' Cause and effect is the other way around. Justification results in new thoughts, hopes, inspiration.

 

[Arial]

"Regeneration results in the work being applied..."? I don't follow this.

That is because it is only a part of the sentence it is taken out of.
Regeneration results in the work of Christ being applied to the individual.

 

[EarlyActs]

Here's the standard line by the Australian Forum:
"Justification is God's historic work in Christ for us;
transformation is the God's work in us through the Spirit."

That is because it is only a part of the sentence it is taken out of.
Regeneration results in the work of Christ being applied to the individual.

But cause and effect still seem reversed. The work of Christ deals with our past debt and that regenerates our hopes and inspiration, yes? Try this: regeneration is the result of the work of Christ being applied to the individual (although I don't why the individual would have any question that this applies... 'Christ died for our sins.')

Isn't the flow of Romans that the great legal-debt issues are explained in chs 1-5 and resolved, and then ch 6 comes and we are made alive through that?

 

[Arial]

But cause and effect still seem reversed. The work of Christ deals with our past debt and that regenerates our hopes and inspiration, yes? Try this: regeneration is the result of the work of Christ being applied to the individual (although I don't why the individual would have any question that this applies... 'Christ died for our sins.')

I disagree. The subject is regenerration and its relationship to justification. It is the work of Christ that justifies when it is applied to us through faith by grace. So in regenerration that work is applied to us by the Holy Spirit. It changes our hearts to be disposed to the things of God instead of at enmity with Him. It means we are taken out of "born in Adam", and born in Christ spiritually. It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing.

Although the way in which you word it is also true.

 

[prism]

The work of Christ deals with our past debt and that regenerates our hopes and inspiration, yes?

I think the work of Christ was more than a pep rally, it truly forgave ALL our sins (debts), past, present and future.

 

[EarlyActs]

I disagree. The subject is regenerration and its relationship to justification. It is the work of Christ that justifies when it is applied to us through faith by grace. So in regenerration that work is applied to us by the Holy Spirit. It changes our hearts to be disposed to the things of God instead of at enmity with Him. It means we are taken out of "born in Adam", and born in Christ spiritually. It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing.

Although the way in which you word it is also true.

We don't disagree that. I was making sure justification was not the practical application of regeneration.

 

[EarlyActs]

I think the work of Christ was more than a pep rally, it truly forgave ALL our sins (debts), past, present and future.

It is the forgiveness in Christ that inspires us.

 

[prism]

It is the forgiveness in Christ that inspires us.

Most are not moved by the Gospel Story unless they have first been regenerated

 

[EarlyActs]

Most are not moved by the Gospel Story unless they have first been regenerated

Are you saying that bc of Jn 3? If so that is a misread. Or do you some other basis?

 

[donadams]

Is there a distinction between the two?
J.C. Ryle says this in his book on the new birth. (He, rightly so, makes no distinction between regeneration and the new birth).

It ought always to be remembered that there are two distinct things which the Lord Jesus Christ does for every sinner whom He undertakes to save. He washes him from his sins in His own blood, and gives him a free pardon—this is his justification. He puts the Holy Spirit into his heart, and makes him an entire new man—this is his Regeneration.

Ryle, J.C.. The New Birth . Kindle Edition.

Maybe it's Ryle's definition of justification that is confusing me? I have always thought it to be a declaration of pardon, based on the imputed merits of Christ.

All accomplished in baptism!

 

[prism]

All accomplished in baptism!

By water or by the Spirit?
I was water baptized three months after being baptized in the Spirit.

 

[donadams]

By water or by the Spirit?
I was water baptized three months after being baptized in the Spirit.

All the same time!
Water is the outward sign of the inward grace of the spirit!

Thanks

 

[prism]

All the same time!
Water is the outward sign of the inward grace of the spirit!

Thanks

So 'inward grace of the Spirit' is insufficient? It requires the addition of a created element, which we call H2O?