Did Christ actually suffer eternal torment on our behalf?

[CrowCross]

Deut 32:4= ALL of Gods ways are justice--Justice is represented by a set of scales--God taught all perfect justice= an eye for an eye--His justice scales are uncorruptable=perfect balance.
So for 70-100 years of an unrepented life God could not condemn one to trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of suffering--there is 0 balance on those scales in that scenario-Its like an eye for a gazillion eyes= not the true God. Only a sadist would have a literal eternal suffering.
Deut 30:19-God set before all-LIFE or DEATH, both will be everlasting.

Are you saying that all men don't fall short? That the punishment for sin is death?

 

[makesends]

Parables may well be fiction...Was there really a good Samaritan? On the other hand what we do know about them is that they are based upon actual events or events that could have actually happened.

—Or based on a commonly held belief, or based on an old hand-me-down tale, or based on....who knows? We don't know that it could have happened like that. Are the particulars in the story upheld anywhere else in Scripture?

 

[ChristB4us]

Your post in not truth.

Well, don't leave me hanging. Tell me why and how.

If you can explain the scriptures I have used for why I am saying what I am saying as not really saying that, then go for it.

I have addressed your scriptures in explaining it for why the other scriptures which I have applied is why you are applying those scriptures in the wrong way since scripture cannot go against scripture. How Jesus has helped me to me apply all the scriptures to align has to be the truth.

In our walk with the Lord, He will reprove those that are fruitful so they can bear more fruit in the knowledge of Him; it is when we resist reproof by the scriptures is when we are in danger of not abiding in Him in truth.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Jesus exhorts all saved believers to continue in His love by asking Him for help for receiving reproof to continue in His love to abide in Him in truth to bear more fruit as His disciples. I am open to correction by the scripture but too often then not, those that are opposed to me will not bother addressing the scriptures for why I say what I say but just repeat the scriptures they had used applying it wrongly.

So feel free to address why the post is not in truth by applying the scriptures rightly in Christ's love if I had applied them wrongly.

if you cannot do that, then go before that throne of grace and asked Jesus Christ for help whether it be to show how I applied the scriptures wrongly or for you to see the truth in how all the scriptures align for what He has led me to share in truth.

 

[ChristB4us]

Your post in not truth

This again?

So feel free to address why the post is not in truth by applying the scriptures rightly in Christ's love if I had applied them wrongly.

if you cannot do that, then go before that throne of grace and asked Jesus Christ for help whether it be to show how I applied the scriptures wrongly or for you to see the truth in how all the scriptures align for what He has led me to share in truth.

 

[Keiw1]

Are you saying that all men don't fall short? That the punishment for sin is death?

Even the apostles died=righteous men. They paid in full their own wages of sin. Everyone who dies does. Some won't ever have to taste death though=The ones brought through at Armageddon on earth as long as they stay faithful once satan is loosed for a little while.

 

[Keiw1]

Well, don't leave me hanging. Tell me why and how.

If you can explain the scriptures I have used for why I am saying what I am saying as not really saying that, then go for it.

I have addressed your scriptures in explaining it for why the other scriptures which I have applied is why you are applying those scriptures in the wrong way since scripture cannot go against scripture. How Jesus has helped me to me apply all the scriptures to align has to be the truth.

In our walk with the Lord, He will reprove those that are fruitful so they can bear more fruit in the knowledge of Him; it is when we resist reproof by the scriptures is when we are in danger of not abiding in Him in truth.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Jesus exhorts all saved believers to continue in His love by asking Him for help for receiving reproof to continue in His love to abide in Him in truth to bear more fruit as His disciples. I am open to correction by the scripture but too often then not, those that are opposed to me will not bother addressing the scriptures for why I say what I say but just repeat the scriptures they had used applying it wrongly.

So feel free to address why the post is not in truth by applying the scriptures rightly in Christ's love if I had applied them wrongly.

if you cannot do that, then go before that throne of grace and asked Jesus Christ for help whether it be to show how I applied the scriptures wrongly or for you to see the truth in how all the scriptures align for what He has led me to share in truth.

Jesus taught--You MUST pray then this way--Our Father---no one else is prayed to.
Few on earth know the real Jesus.

 

[ChristB4us]

Jesus taught--You MUST pray then this way--Our Father---no one else is prayed to.
Few on earth know the real Jesus.

Jesus taught us that prayer but He did not signify as the only prayer we can make to the Father.

Jesus had prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane, and it wasn't that specific prayer, now was it?

Jesus now being at that throne of grace is also one to pray to in times of need, being the only Mediator between God and men. 1 Timothy 2:5

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The point is, the Holy Spirit, although od and one of the 3 Witnesses in the Godhead, is not the One to pray to above when He is fulfilling His role as the Comforter by dwelling within us. We should honor the Son as the only mediator between God and men that answers prayers.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.... 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 5;22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

The latter part of verse 23 leaves no wiggle room for praying TO the Holy Spirit.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[Keiw1]

Jesus taught us that prayer but He did not signify as the only prayer we can make to the Father.

Jesus had prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane, and it wasn't that specific prayer, now was it?

Jesus now being at that throne of grace is also one to pray to in times of need, being the only Mediator between God and men. 1 Timothy 2:5

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The point is, the Holy Spirit, although od and one of the 3 Witnesses in the Godhead, is not the One to pray to above when He is fulfilling His role as the Comforter by dwelling within us. We should honor the Son as the only mediator between God and men that answers prayers.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.... 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 5;22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

The latter part of verse 23 leaves no wiggle room for praying TO the Holy Spirit.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Jesus always prayed to his Father. He is our example to follow closely as possible.
Thanks for John 5:23--The Father sent Jesus--And at John 17:3 Jesus teaches-the one who sent him= THE ONLY TRUE GOD( in a prayer to his Father)--so one must ask--why won't my religion believe Jesus? And why do they contradict him?

 

[ChristB4us]

Even the apostles died=righteous men. They paid in full their own wages of sin. Everyone who dies does. Some won't ever have to taste death though=The ones brought through at Armageddon on earth as long as they stay faithful once satan is loosed for a little while.

You should consider because of that exception, you may not be seeing us as really paying for the wages of sin in that way by dying.

Because then, when does this apply below?

Matthew 20:28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: 25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
So even though we die physically, because He lives, we shall live as well.
Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

That is why not every one will die in paying the wages of sin and so that is not what is going on at the pre great tribulation rapture event.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

So nobody is going to call foul when not every believer will die as if that is how we pay for the ages of our sins when Jesus has saved us.

However, saved believers that have unrepentant iniquity or iniquities on that foundation will die if they do not go to Jesus christ for discernment and help in departing from iniquities before the Bridegroom comes.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Though the believer may get left behind to die for not looking to Jesus Christ, trusting Him as their Good Shepherd to help them discern & depart from iniquity ( iniquities ) they are still saved as verse 15 above testifies as Christ paid for that ransom for why that foundation laid by him remains as that seal of adoption does too, but they shall be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth, for not departing from iniquity, but still His as they are still in His House.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So now is the time to ask Jesus Christ to help you discern and to depart from iniquities before He comes as the Bridegroom because we are living in the latter days where faith is hard to find.

 

[ChristB4us]

Jesus always prayed to his Father. He is our example to follow closely as possible.
Thanks for John 5:23--The Father sent Jesus--And at John 17:3 Jesus teaches-the one who sent him= THE ONLY TRUE GOD( in a prayer to his Father)--so one must ask--why won't my religion believe Jesus? And why do they contradict him?

Jesus also included Himself in that testimony about knowing the One True God and not just the Father.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Something many overlook when denying the deity of Christ only because they are reading it with their respective theological spectacles on.

 

[CrowCross]

—Or based on a commonly held belief, or based on an old hand-me-down tale, or based on....who knows? We don't know that it could have happened like that. Are the particulars in the story upheld anywhere else in Scripture?

If you say so.

Are you saying that all men don't fall short? That the punishment for sin is death?

 

[makesends]

Jesus also included Himself in that testimony about knowing the One True God and not just the Father.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Something many overlook when denying the deity of Christ only because they are reading it with their respective theological spectacles on.

And even in English, as, I believe, in several languages, the conjunction, "and", sometimes means, "even", rather than, "in addition to". It certainly does in Greek.

 

[makesends]

If you say so.

Are you saying that all men don't fall short? That the punishment for sin is death?

WHAT??? Where do you get that from my post?

 

[CrowCross]

WHAT??? Where do you get that from my post?

I was simply asking. Trying to understnd your position.

Your theology is unclear.

 

[CrowCross]

Even the apostles died=righteous men. They paid in full their own wages of sin. Everyone who dies does. Some won't ever have to taste death though=The ones brought through at Armageddon on earth as long as they stay faithful once satan is loosed for a little while.

Didn't Jesus pay for sin on the cross? I'm not quite sure what they paid their own wage means.

 

[ChristB4us]

Didn't Jesus pay for sin on the cross? I'm not quite sure what they paid their own wage means.

I suspect that he is mixing the wages of sin is death verse with our physical death as if believers are paying for the wages of sin when they die when it actually doesn't in regards to Christ having paid the wages of sins for us by His death.

 

[CrowCross]

I suspect that he is mixing the wages of sin is death verse with our physical death as if believers are paying for the wages of sin when they die when it actually doesn't in regards to Christ having paid the wages of sins for us by His death.

Could be. I was speaking of the sin that sends you to hell.

 

[Eleanor]

Even the apostles died=righteous men. They paid in full their own wages of sin. Everyone who dies does. Some won't ever have to taste death though=The ones brought through at Armageddon on earth as long as they stay faithful once satan is loosed for a little while.

"Dying, you shall die." (Ge 2:17)

Dying spiritually, you shall die physically.

Those in Jesus Christa are redeemed from the spiritual death.

 

[Keiw1]

You should consider because of that exception, you may not be seeing us as really paying for the wages of sin in that way by dying.

Because then, when does this apply below?

Matthew 20:28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: 25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
So even though we die physically, because He lives, we shall live as well.
Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

That is why not every one will die in paying the wages of sin and so that is not what is going on at the pre great tribulation rapture event.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

So nobody is going to call foul when not every believer will die as if that is how we pay for the ages of our sins when Jesus has saved us.

However, saved believers that have unrepentant iniquity or iniquities on that foundation will die if they do not go to Jesus christ for discernment and help in departing from iniquities before the Bridegroom comes.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Though the believer may get left behind to die for not looking to Jesus Christ, trusting Him as their Good Shepherd to help them discern & depart from iniquity ( iniquities ) they are still saved as verse 15 above testifies as Christ paid for that ransom for why that foundation laid by him remains as that seal of adoption does too, but they shall be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth, for not departing from iniquity, but still His as they are still in His House.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So now is the time to ask Jesus Christ to help you discern and to depart from iniquities before He comes as the Bridegroom because we are living in the latter days where faith is hard to find.

If the death of Jesus covered our sins as you think. We would not owe the wages of sin and wouldn't need to die. DEATH is the judgement sin brings. And one is aquitted of all sin at death. They cannot be rejudged for those sins in the resurrection.

 

[Keiw1]

Jesus also included Himself in that testimony about knowing the One True God and not just the Father.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Something many overlook when denying the deity of Christ only because they are reading it with their respective theological spectacles on.

Yes one must know the Father as the only true God and know Jesus, as well one finds there the only true God, did not come himself he sent another named Jesus as a mortal.