Daniel 9

[armylngst]

Remnant simply means a few, not all, of anything.
It is not an exclusive term used only for the people of God.
However, it is a Biblical fact, God saves only a remnant of mankind.

God doesn't speak of a remnant of mankind, only a remnant of Israel, as seen when God speaks to Elijah.

Which the NT shows rejected and murdered their Messiah, for which the nation was hardened in unbelief and cut off as God's people, being replaced with Gentiles ( Ro 11:16-23).

God does not say that. It was for unbelief/rejection of the gospel that the nation was PARTIALLY hardened/blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. God's people were not replaced, but removed. God clearly states through Paul that if they go from unbelief to belief, they are right back in the olive tree. So... not replaced. God further goes on to say he would be more than happy to rip the Gentiles out for not continuing in belief. There is no talk about putting them back in.

They don't need to have that for the feet-on-the-ground fact that only a remnant of mankind is being saved.

The Bible does not speak of it this way. Even for Israel, we speak of remnant because that is what God said to Elijah.

There are not two tracks for God's people in NT apostolic teaching, there is only one. Salvation is by faith in and trust on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God. There is no other way to be saved from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on your sin.
Track two is simply the unbelievers.

Consider this part of Romans 11:
"28 [h]From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but [i]from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."

So, according to this, the Gentiles were disobedient, but have been shown mercy because of Israels disobedience. So Israel which now have been (present perfect), can now be shown (future perfect) mercy because the Gentiles had been shown mercy. So two tracks. However, Paul is clear to state that it was all one program. "For God has shut up ALL in disobedience so that He may show mercy to ALL." God handled it one after the other. The Gentiles were disobedient, but because Israel was disobedient, God showed mercy to the Gentiles. Because God showed mercy to the Gentiles, because Israel is disobedient, Israel may now be shown mercy in the same way God had mercy for the Gentiles. That is authoritative NT apostolic teaching right there. And it only makes sense if you consider the program God set forth.

Salvation comes from the Jews, for Jesus came to the lost nation of Israel. (Jesus said so Himself.) However, Israel rejected Jesus, and so the gospel went out to the Gentiles. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, God will finish with Israel. So by the rejection of Israel, all are saved. If God did that, there has to be a reason, which goes back to Israel being the chosen people of God through whom God sent the Messiah. As such, Jesus was only for the Jews, for God had promised Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. Ultimately He promised David that the Messiah would sit on David's throne over... Israel. The church was a mystery in the Old Testament, revealed following the rejection of the Messiah by Israel, when the gospel moved to the Gentiles, and God's full plan was revealed in all of its glory.

That is nowhere presented in authoritative NT apostolic teaching, in fact, it is contrary to the NT apostolic teaching of the one olive tree of God's people, the church, of both OT and NT believers, going all the way back to Abraham, from whom unbelieving Israel has been cut off, and whose destiny is to be grafted back into that one olive tree, the NT church, IF (not "when") they do not continue in unbelief (Ro 11:16-23).

And that one body of believers, the one olive tree of God's people, the church, goes all the way back to Abraham (Ro 11:16-23).

You should use a passage that actually supports what you say. "
16 And if the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a partaker with them of the [f]rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast against them, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right! They were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be haughty, but fear, 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?"

Nowhere does it say that the church goes all the way back to Abraham here. It is not there. It is again, your personal interpretation.

The word remnant is not exclusive to the Bible. It has a specific meaning in the Bible, but the word is not exclusive to the Bible.

The meaning of remnant as defined by God with Elijah is...

 

[Eleanor]

Rom. 9-11 is about Faith AND Service, you can't deny that.

Previously addressed.

 

[Eleanor]

God doesn't speak of a remnant of mankind, only a remnant of Israel, as seen when God speaks to Elijah.

Previously addressed.

God does not say that. It was for unbelief/rejection of the gospel that the nation was PARTIALLY hardened/blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. God's people were not replaced, but removed.

" 'Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.' Granted." (Ro 11:19-20)

God clearly states through Paul that if they go from unbelief to belief, they are right back in the olive tree.

No one denies them access to the olive tree but God.
And note the IF, not "when." There is no NT guarantee that Israel will be grafted back into the one olive tree of God's people, the church, of both OT and NT saints, going all he way back to Abraham (Heb 11:40, 12:22-24).

So... not replaced. God further goes on to say he would be more than happy to rip the Gentiles out for not continuing in belief. There is no talk about putting them back in.

Was he "happy" to rip the Jews out?
It's not about just arbitrarily cutting off and grafting back, it's about unbelief and belief.

The Bible does not speak of it this way. Even for Israel, we speak of remnant because that is what God said to Elijah.

The Bible also doesn't speak of man having knuckles, but it is a fact nevertheless, just as it is a fact that only a remnant of the Gentiles are being saved.

Consider this part of Romans 11:
"28 [h]From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but [i]from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."

So, according to this, the Gentiles were disobedient, but have been shown mercy because of Israels disobedience. So Israel which now have been (present perfect), can now be shown (future perfect) mercy because the Gentiles had been shown mercy. So two tracks.

That is not two tracks, that is two peoples on the same track; i.e. salvation by faith/damnation by unblief.

However, Paul is clear to state that it was all one program. "For God has shut up ALL in disobedience so that He may show mercy to ALL." God handled it one after the other. The Gentiles were disobedient, but because Israel was disobedient, God showed mercy to the Gentiles. Because God showed mercy to the Gentiles, because Israel is disobedient, Israel may now be shown mercy in the same way God had mercy for the Gentiles. That is authoritative NT apostolic teaching right there. And it only makes sense if you consider the program God set forth.
Salvation comes from the Jews, for Jesus came to the lost nation of Israel. (Jesus said so Himself.) However, Israel rejected Jesus, and so the gospel went out to the Gentiles. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, God will finish with Israel. So by the rejection of Israel, all are saved. If God did that, there has to be a reason, which goes back to Israel being the chosen people of God through whom God sent the Messiah. As such, Jesus was only for the Jews, for God had promised Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. Ultimately He promised David that the Messiah would sit on David's throne over... Israel. The church was a mystery in the Old Testament, revealed following the rejection of the Messiah by Israel, when the gospel moved to the Gentiles, and God's full plan was revealed in all of its glory.

You should use a passage that actually supports what you say. "
16 And if the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

Precisely.

In the metaphor of the tree, which represents the people of God, the tree begins with its root, the holy patriarchs, the firstfruits of that people, and finishes with its branches, all the believers, which up until Christ was only Israel.
Israel was cut off from this tree because of unbelief. and the Gentiles were grafted in.
There is no NT guarantee that Israel will be grafted into the tree again. There is only a conditional promise of such, conditioned on their belief, which is not guaranteed.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a partaker with them of the [f]rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast against them, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right! They were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be haughty, but fear, 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?"
Nowhere does it say that the church goes all the way back to Abraham here.

Nowhere does it say the tree which is the people of God has a trunk, nor is it incorrect to say that it does, and what's more, to say that it is Christ in whom the branches "abide," and who proceeded from the patriarchs, the root of the tree.

See Gal 3:29.

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

Nowhere does it say the tree which is the people of God has a trunk, nor is it incorrect to say that it does, and what's more, to say that it is Christ in whom the branches "abide," and who proceeded from the patriarchs, the root of the tree.

See Gal 3:29.

Here is the verses that people misconstrue/manipulate to say that the Church has taken the place of Israel.

Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So without posting scriptures in full, which I hate doing on a message board, I will spotlight why people confuse this passage. And how Satan never eases to try and trip us up.

Why is Paul telling the Galatians that there is neither Jew nor Greek/Gentile ? Is it because the Jews are no longer an entity? Paul is not saying that, else where he says there is no longer Males nor Females then there would only be one sex else his demonstration & juxtaposition via the Jews and Gentiles doesn't fit either.

If one rereads the whole chapter it becomes evident that the foolish Galatians have started trying to work their way to heaven (like the Jews) by keeping the Law, thus Paul goes into a rant, who has bewitched you, that starting in the faith you now serve the flesh (law). Then he explains how Jesus is the end to the law and how the promise came 430 years before the law and how the law was just a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ Jesus.

Taking all of this in, it becomes apparent that Paul is chastising the Galatians for trying to earn their way to heaven by trying to be "Jew lite" or like unto the Jews, who some had no doubt came in as "Christian Jews" but who also mandated that the new Gentile converts had to keep the Judaic Laws !! So, to get their attention Paul shows why the Promise supersedes the Law.

So his whole point in vs 29, which you cite, is we come to Christ by faith alone, both Jew & Gentile, slave & freeman, male & female. Notice, there are still male and females, so why do people think this teachers there are now only one entity, and that we are all one, Jew and Gentile? It is just the opposite to be truthful, reread the whole chapter knowing Paul is telling the Galatians to stop trying to serve the Law (be Jew like) in order to gain heaven, no it make much more sense that he tells the Galatians we are all one in God's family BUT........only in the manner that we come into the family, by FAITH ALONE, both Jew and Gentile, Male & Female come unto Gid by Faith Alone !! He is not saying we are all one as Nations, Peoples and Sexes. Israel has a calling, we the Gentile Church have a specific calling, women have a calling to birth children into this world, men (overall) to be providers and protectors via "God's Design".

In other words, basically its just the opposite of what people try to imply, Paul is angry that the Galatians are trying to be Jew Like in order to gain Heaven by works(keeping the law), and he thus rebukes them.

I do deep dives on these sort of things. Matt. 24:4-14 has ZERO to do with the tribulation/70th week.

 

[EarlyActs]

So, in vs. 4 Paul says that this is about Israel and their SERVICE unto God. He uses this to show them that God uses who He wills, but Israel trusted in the laws of Moses over the Faith of the promised seed (Jesus), so the warning to the Romans is don't you follow them down that road (we can see thus warning in full in Rom. 11). Paul says only those of Faith are heirs, so do not forget that Romans, being born a Jew does nit make one an heir.

Paul them gives them a demonstration, he shows Esau was born first but before either had did any good or evil, God CHOSE Jacob the YOUNGER for SERVICE, and Esau the Elder would serve Jacob. This is a picture of the Church which is the YOUNGER (Church) whom the ELDER (Israel) would have to serve. Esau served Jacob and Israel served the Church. God has mercy on whom He wills and choses whom he will harden is carried on via the Pharaoh. The Potter (God) chooses the vessel he gives honor unto and the one he creates in dishonor is Paul saying God chooses whom he will to SERVE Him, this become very obvious when one digs down deep. I can say it over and over, but those who refuse to study it in depth will never see it.

Most people do not grasp verses 22-26, what Paul is trying to tell "the Romans" is hey, what if God is willing to show His wrath [against Israel] to make known His power unto the rest of the world (Gentiles) known, so much so that He withheld the justice that Israel deserved for a very long time, so that those of who chosen for Glory (because we accept Jesus by faith) will be able to come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, because Jesus had to be birthed, thus God withheld His wrath against Israel in order to have mercy on everyone. Paul is merely explaining that Israel deserved this wrath of Gid long ago. But then he tells them a Remnant [of Israel] will be saved eventually, God's calling is without repentance, the Kingdom Age will happen. Israel has fallen because of unbelief, as will you Romans if you abide not in faith, but Israel has not been forsaken.

So, clearly this is not just about Belief/Faith and Unbelief, it is also about how God chooses whom He will to SERVE Him at any given time, that thread runs through Romans 9 over and over again. He hardened Pharaoh, but has mercy on whom He will. He created the Vessel He so choses. God chose Jacob the Younger (think Church) to serve Esau the Elder (think of Israel as the elder here).

If one studies Rom. 9-11 in detail they can see this is a thread about both FAITH & SERVICE, you seem to only see the Faith portion, which I also see, you claiming it is only about Faith however is not correct. Thus when we get to Rom. 11 and the Fulness of the Gentiles or time of the Gentiles FULL SERVICE, which is why I say time, its about a SERVICE PERIOD of time, so when we get there and read the Fulness of the Gentiles has come in, we know the Churches service is over or completed, thus Israel is blind, as a nation, until God Raptures us out, Pre Trib. That is al it means, God is not finished with Israel, BUT..........He will not deal with them until the Churches mission statement of taking the Gospel unto the whole world is complete. Yes, Rom. 9-11 is about Israel lack of faith, Paul uses that to try and teach the Romans what they should and should not do, but he also tells them about service as chosen by God, and how God will chose Israel for service once again , but only after the Churches (Gentiles) mission is complete. Scriptures have to be studied in depth, taking verses out of context, or denying the compete context is a no no.

You did pretty good until the end. I don't see where Paul is looking to a distant future but just saying 'in this way' (the race-nation being partly blind) the other Israel of 9:6 will be saved; the way is: continued partial-blindness and the act that saves is the historic Redeemer who came to Zion to take away sins. It is the new covenant, which is present. Those are quotes from Isaiah. "Saved" in Romans is otherwise about the salvation of one person at a time. There is no reason to jump to a future, geographic Judean state.

As confirmation that he means the present reality, have a look at the final lines of 11 (before the song). All that God is doing on this is now. The revocability is answered now. There is no automatic need to think about land promises! All men have now been bound over to sin, so that there can now be mercy on all (both groups). He does mean now!

As another confirmation, look how ch 12 opens, by referring back to the mercy. It is to sacrifice (your race-nations) status and fellowship with the other believers. It is not the distant future, it is now.

The early Christians succeeded in this and 'loved each other' which was the mark of the early church, not found outside, neither in Judaism nor the world.

 

[EarlyActs]

You run a mile to try and avoid a point that walking a block could solve. Rom. 9-11 is about Faith AND Service, you can't deny that. So we get a mile run instead to conflate the issues. My original point was that the Fulness of the Gentiles (Time of the Gentiles) is referring unto the Churches Service in Israel absence, God saw Israel as Dead Men's Bones for nigh 2000 years, He brought them back, but they still lacked Breath (Holy Spirit) as a nation. Paul here is saying ALL Israel (Not every Jew, but Israel as a nation) will be saved., but only after the Gentiles Service s complete.

So, why is this very important to understand? Because way too many Gentile Christians try to replace Israel with the Church. That is why God's SERVICE is s important here. God chose Israel to birth the Messiah (Mission complete). God then chose the Gentile Church to take the Gospel unto all the world, Mission nigh complete, I see the Rapture as no later than the fall of 2025, then again I am a Prophecy guy, called unto that for nigh 40 years. Then Israel's service will kick back in, because God can not lie, He promised this to Abraham, we the Church do not replace Israel. That is why Paul says God's calling is without repentance.

Future work-outs of these problems are fraught with issues and not how the apostles thought. Nothing to do with it. No one in the NT has the sense that land promises to Israel were lost and God owes them.

The original replacement theology issue is Gal 3:17; Judaizers deleted Abraham's Promise which results in the nations gaining salvation, and only valued the period of the Law, even though the other predates it some 430 years.

I do notice something interesting to ask about your system though: when Israel 'serves' what is the result compared with Gentiles doing so?

The reason I ask is that the fundamental error of the 2 people/program system is that everything turns into twos. On this one they would say God gets served at the temple. Have you read the NT? It has this moving, living temple meant to include all believing folks around the world. What would you go back for? Compare the Sabbath; it used to be a day. Now it is the rest we gain in Christ. You are saying God will go back on that?

 

[Eleanor]

Here is the verses that people misconstrue/manipulate to say that the Church has taken the place of Israel.

There is only one people of God, going all the way back to Abraham, of both OT and NT saints, the church.
And all who believe become a part of the church, including all Jews.
There are not two peoples of God, on two tracks, with two destines.
That is contrary to everything the apostles teach.

IF they do not persist in unbelief, Israel will be grafted back into the one olive tree of God's people (Ro 11:23), the church, going all the way back to Abraham.
God has only one people, those saved by faith in Jesus Christ, of both OT and NT saints,
OT saints who believed in the promise (Ge 15:5, seed; Jesus Christ,Gal 3:16), and
NT saints who believe in Jesus Christ.

Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So without posting scriptures in full, which I hate doing on a message board, I will spotlight why people confuse this passage. And how Satan never eases to try and trip us up.

Why is Paul telling the Galatians that there is neither Jew nor Greek/Gentile ? Is it because the Jews are no longer an entity? Paul is not saying that, else where he says there is no longer Males nor Females then there would only be one sex else his demonstration & juxtaposition via the Jews and Gentiles doesn't fit either.

If one rereads the whole chapter it becomes evident that the foolish Galatians have started trying to work their way to heaven (like the Jews) by keeping the Law, thus Paul goes into a rant, who has bewitched you, that starting in the faith you now serve the flesh (law). Then he explains how Jesus is the end to the law and how the promise came 430 years before the law and how the law was just a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ Jesus.

Taking all of this in, it becomes apparent that Paul is chastising the Galatians for trying to earn their way to heaven by trying to be "Jew lite" or like unto the Jews, who some had no doubt came in as "Christian Jews" but who also mandated that the new Gentile converts had to keep the Judaic Laws !! So, to get their attention Paul shows why the Promise supersedes the Law.

So his whole point in vs 29, which you cite, is we come to Christ by faith alone, both Jew & Gentile, slave & freeman, male & female. Notice, there are still male and females, so why do people think this teachers there are now only one entity, and that we are all one, Jew and Gentile? It is just the opposite to be truthful, reread the whole chapter knowing Paul is telling the Galatians to stop trying to serve the Law (be Jew like) in order to gain heaven, no it make much more sense that he tells the Galatians we are all one in God's family BUT........only in the manner that we come into the family, by FAITH ALONE, both Jew and Gentile, Male & Female come unto Gid by Faith Alone !! He is not saying we are all one as Nations, Peoples and Sexes. Israel has a calling, we the Gentile Church have a specific calling, women have a calling to birth children into this world, men (overall) to be providers and protectors via "God's Design".

In other words, basically its just the opposite of what people try to imply, Paul is angry that the Galatians are trying to be Jew Like in order to gain Heaven by works(keeping the law), and he thus rebukes them.

I do deep dives on these sort of things. Matt. 24:4-14 has ZERO to do with the tribulation/70th week.

Agreed.

 

[Carbon]

There is only one people of God, going all the way back to Abraham, of both OT and NT saints, the church.
And all who believe become a part of the church, including all Jews.

A little further back than Abraham. Back to Adam more like it

 

[Eleanor]

A little further back than Abraham. Back to Adam more like it

The "called-out assembly" (ekklesia, Ac 7:38) began with Abraham.

 

[Carbon]

The "called-out assembly" (ekklesia, Ac 7:38) began with Abraham.

So Adam isn’t part of the body?

 

[Carbon]

The "called-out assembly" (ekklesia, Ac 7:38) began with Abraham.

I’m just trying to be difficult.
Least you could do is play along. I’m just checking if you agree with headship theology.

 

[Eleanor]

So Adam isn’t part of the body?

Adam is not part of the physical "called-out assembly."
Nor is Noah, Job or anyone before Abraham.

They are, however, saved as all are saved, by faith in the promise (Ge 3:15, seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16)

 

[makesends]

Adam is not part of the physical "called-out assembly."
Nor is Noah, Job or anyone before Abraham.

They are, however, saved as all are saved, by faith in the promise (Ge 3:15, seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16)

Does the fact that they are not mentioned as part of the "called out assembly" mean that they are not? I don't follow your reasoning there. Is there something that says they are not?

 

[Eleanor]

I’m just trying to be difficult.
Least you could do is play along.
Thing is. . .I'm not good at subtexts.

I’m just checking if you agree with headship theology.

It's more of an overlay than I am comfortable with at the present, taking into account that I have not examined it well.

I prefer the NT way of treating it: patterns/types, First and Second Adam, imputations based on each, etc.

 

[Eleanor]

Does the fact that they are not mentioned as part of the "called out assembly" mean that they are not? I don't follow your reasoning there. Is there something that says they are not?

The called-out assembly is a physical thing, as is the nation Israel or the natural seed of Abraham.
Adam pre-existed both the assembly and Israel, and is a part of neither, the assembly being the beginning of Israel.

The first practical step God took in the actual plan of redemption was the calling out of Abraham to start the seed, and the covenant with him.
Abraham's seed is the called-out assembly (ekklesia, Ac 7:38), which is all the people in covenant with God for eternal life, both OT and NT saints. Both the Abrahamic (land, God as their God) and Mosaic (law) covenants have been fulfilled, and the people of God are now in God's New Covenant (grace).

 

[Eleanor]

Clean-up of post #135.

I’m just trying to be difficult.
Least you could do is play along.

Thing is. . .I'm not good at subtexts.

I’m just checking if you agree with headship theology.

It's more of an overlay than I am comfortable with at the present, taking into account that I have not examined it well.

 

[EarlyActs]

There is an Isaiah line quoted by the NT: even if the people of Israel number as many as the sands of the sea, only the remnant will be saved. Rom 9 quoting Isa 10.

 

[armylngst]

Previously addressed.

" 'Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.' Granted." (Ro 11:19-20)

No one denies them access to the olive tree but God.
And note the IF, not "when." There is no NT guarantee that Israel will be grafted back into the one olive tree of God's people, the church, of both OT and NT saints, going all he way back to Abraham (Heb 11:40, 12:22-24).

Why do you keep ignoring the full context of Romans 9-11? What does that verse say? And all Israel will be saved. Where does it say that? Right after it explains that because Israel rejected, by mercy salvation spread to the Gentiles, and in the same way, Israel will be shown mercy. Why do you keep ignoring/denying that? Even Augustine found he could not ignore it.

Was he "happy" to rip the Jews out?

As happy as He will be to rip out Gentiles, though it seems that He would have more gusto in doing that. (Considering Paul is basically saying that it would be due to haughtiness and pride.)

It's not about just arbitrarily cutting off and grafting back, it's about unbelief and belief.

Why are you trying to explain to me what I understand, and what I have been trying to explain to you? You keep saying God has rejected Israel.

The Bible also doesn't speak of man having knuckles, but it is a fact nevertheless, just as it is a fact that only a remnant of the Gentiles are being saved.

You have completely redefined the meaning of remnant in light of scripture. The definition of remnant is "a small remaining quantity of something." When speaking of a remnant of Israel, what God meant and what Paul meant, is a small number of Jews who remain as the chosen people of God. The elect of the nation of Israel. Those who have not taken the knee to Ba'al, and have not rejected God. This definition does NOT fit for Gentiles. The proper terminology is that only a small number of Gentiles are being saved. A small remnant of Gentiles being saved makes no sense. In that case, not all of the Gentiles that remain are being saved, because the characteristic "saved, or people of God" never described the Gentiles. Those upon whom God showed mercy in saving some, that is what Paul says about them.

That is not two tracks, that is two peoples on the same track; i.e. salvation by faith/damnation by unblief.

Why are you not understanding that program and track are two different things, yet a single program can be made up of multiple tracks? There is one program. However, there are all kinds of tracks going on within the program. The end result is THE SAME. Hence it is a program. It doesn't matter how one reaches the final conclusion, it just matters that one reaches the conclusion, which is the purpose of the program. That program? The redemption of creation. The overthrow of Satan. The crushing of Satan by Christ. That is the program.

Precisely.

In the metaphor of the tree, which represents the people of God, the tree begins with its root, the holy patriarchs, the firstfruits of that people, and finishes with its branches, all the believers, which up until Christ was only Israel.
Israel was cut off from this tree because of unbelief. and the Gentiles were grafted in.
There is no NT guarantee that Israel will be grafted into the tree again. There is only a conditional promise of such, conditioned on their belief, which is not guaranteed.

Actually Jesus said that He is the vine and we are the branches. It isn't the church per say, but the elect of God who are the branches. The nation of Israel was elect of God, but not all who are of Israel are Israel. However, in Paul's writing, all of Israel that is not believing has been removed from the olive tree, elect (who are still non-believers) and non-elect alike. When the elect come to believe, they are grafted back in. However, you will notice that the Gentiles continue to be foreign branches. Remember what Jesus said. "John 10:16: “And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.”" Why does it say "so there will be one flock, one shepherd?" Two tracks that are part of the same project. Two flocks become one. Even Jesus speaks to this.

Nowhere does it say the tree which is the people of God has a trunk, nor is it incorrect to say that it does, and what's more, to say that it is Christ in whom the branches "abide," and who proceeded from the patriarchs, the root of the tree.

See Gal 3:29.

So trees don't have trunks? That's a new one. You do realize there is nothing wrong in playing along with an analogy when you understand what the analogy is, right? Trees have trunks or they aren't trees. Plants have stems. And no, the patriarchs are not the root of the tree, Jesus is. The root represents life. We don't get life from the patriarchs, we get life from Christ. He is our support, and the root provides support.

 

[makesends]

The called-out assembly is a physical thing, as is the nation Israel or the natural seed of Abraham.
Adam pre-existed both the assembly and Israel, and is a part of neither, the assembly being the beginning of Israel.

The first practical step God took in the actual plan of redemption was the calling out of Abraham to start the seed, and the covenant with him.
Abraham's seed is the called-out assembly (ekklesia, Ac 7:38), which is all the people in covenant with God for eternal life, both OT and NT saints. Both the Abrahamic (land, God as their God) and Mosaic (law) covenants have been fulfilled, and the people of God are now in God's New Covenant (grace).

I'm having a hard time seeing this. I suppose it is related to the question of Romans saying that apart from the law transgression is not accounted —at least, to me it can be seen the same way. Those who sinned apart from the law, nevertheless sinned. Those who came before the notion of "called-out-assembly" was made official, it seems reasonable to say, were still, nevertheless, members of it

I could be wrong about this, because I have many unanswered questions about Heaven —who is what, and so on. But to me the elect, from Adam till the end, has always been the one Body. And they all sin the same sin (rebellion against God), and their salvation is always Christ, and their faith is always the work of the Spirit of God, and the gospel has always been one gospel. Only one way to Heaven.

 

[Carbon]

Why do you keep ignoring the full context of Romans 9-11? What does that verse say? And all Israel will be saved. Where does it say that? Right after it explains that because Israel rejected, by mercy salvation spread to the Gentiles, and in the same way, Israel will be shown mercy. Why do you keep ignoring/denying that? Even Augustine found he could not ignore it.

Huh? Romans 9:11?