Daniel 9

[armylngst]

What about all those who died in unbelief for thousands of years?

You answered your own question in your question. They died in unbelief. Paul tells us that Israel (Jews) were removed from the olive tree because of unbelief. God says that they are only put back into the olive tree if they go from unbelief to belief. Those who died in unbelief... died in unbelief. There will be no change in their condition. Once the 70th week comes to an end, those who survived will be the remnant of Israel, and they will all be saved.

 

[armylngst]

You are of course correct here, but did you ever think the translators used one to many "verses" since really there are no verses in the bible? I think 25 should get half of verse 26 and 27 should get the other half of vs. 26. Like this

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, (1)to finish the transgression, and (2)to make an end of sins, and (3)to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to (4)bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5)seal up the vision and prophecy, and to (6)anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks(49 yrs), and threescore and two weeks(434 yrs): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself(So after 49 yrs + 434 years which = 483 years Jesus is slain for mankind's sins):

and the people(Romans/Europeans) of the prince that shall come(Anti-Christ 2000 some odd yrs later) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary(Romans in 70 AD); and the end thereof shall be with a flood(Army), and unto the end of the war desolations are determined(Israel were dispersed the world over).27 And he(A.C.)shall confirm the covenant(Agreement) with many(not Just Israel but the whole Mediterranean Sea Region) for one week(7 years): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate(He will rule until Jesus shows up and casts him into hell).

I think some people get confused by a bad placement of the scriptures, the English translators seemingly divided it wrongly. Vs. 26 is an unneeded vs.


Yes, and none of those were as great as WW1 or WW2. People simply get tunnel vision far too often, as we have all done at times mind you. Good stuff

Don't forget Hitler/Germany, and Stalin/Russia. Hitler tried to wipe Jews off the planet, while Stalin killed 60 million Russians to include Jews. Hitler managed to wipe out half the population of Jews living in Europe. 6 million+ Jews killed.

 

[Eleanor]

You answered your own question in your question. They died in unbelief. Paul tells us that Israel (Jews) were removed from the olive tree because of unbelief. God says that they are only put back into the olive tree if they go from unbelief to belief. Those who died in unbelief... died in unbelief. There will be no change in their condition. Once the 70th week comes to an end, those who survived will be the remnant of Israel, and they will all be saved.

Unbelief means condemnation (Jn 3:18, 36).

 

[armylngst]

Unbelief means condemnation (Jn 3:18, 36).

That does not remove the fact that Paul said that the Jewish person who comes to believe will be placed back into the olive tree.

My understanding of the verse in John is that the non-elect are condemned. Their non-belief shows that they have already been condemned. So, the question would be if this is talking about unbelief as a final act before dying or the moment they say they don't believe, but they still have 40 more years to live.

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

I always considered the time of the Gentiles as the time after the Jews rejected Christ that the Gentiles come in to Christ. Once Jesus is done gathering in the Gentiles, then the fullness of the Gentiles has come. At that time, God's mercy turns to the Jews, and God forgives them and saves them. (the remnant, the elect from Israel as seen in God's message to Elijah.) And thus, all become one. (Something like that.) There are generally three groups. The church, the nation of Israel (Jews, non-believers, not saved), and the Gentiles who are not saved. Outside the church, they are two groups.

Yes indeed, most people don't get Paul's point in Romans 9-11, he is speaking about service unto God, therefore the Pre Trib Rapture puts Israel back on the clock so to speak of God's SERVICE timeline, they usher in the Kingdom Age, but that can only happen after the repent by Faith just before God's Wrath falls. In Zech. 13:8-9 we see 1/3 repent. Then in the very next verse (Zech. 14:1) we see the DOTL arrives !! So, they repent by faith, just after the Two-witnesses show up at the 1335(most do not get the 1335 right off so don't sweat it).

Ever think of it this way, all three Harvests are seen in Rev. 14 the Harvest chapter. The Wheat are Israel, they grow to the very end with the Tares (in Rev. 14 they are called the [Wicked] Grapes placed in the Wine-press of God's Wrath). They both grow together until the end, meanwhile the Church is the Barley harvest which comes in first, and doesn't have to be crushed in order to be sifted, unlike wheat which has to be crushed. The English word Tribulation comes (I joke not) from a machine the Greeks named a Tribulum that crushed wheat. So, Rev. 14:14 is actually a flashback to the Pre Trib Rapture, meanwhile the Wheat and Tares grow together until the end fits this also. The tares will be bound up and burned later, or killed in the Wine-press of Gids wrath and judged in 1000 years at the 2nd Resurrection.


Gotta run, by 2 month old kitties are getting to close to the road. I enjoy your posts, very thoughtful and insightful.

 

[Eleanor]

That does not remove the fact that Paul said that the Jewish person who comes to believe will be placed back into the olive tree.

My understanding of the verse in John is that the non-elect are condemned. Their non-belief shows that they have already been condemned. So, the question would be if this is talking about unbelief as a final act before dying or the moment they say they don't believe, but they still have 40 more years to live.

Our eternal destiny is determined by the state in which we die, belief or unbelief.

Israel's problem is that God had hardened the majority, who remain hardened to this day, except for a remnant whom he is saving, just as he is saving a remnant of the Gentiles.
God's people always have been, and always will be a remnant.

 

[EarlyActs]

I always considered the time of the Gentiles as the time after the Jews rejected Christ that the Gentiles come in to Christ. Once Jesus is done gathering in the Gentiles, then the fullness of the Gentiles has come. At that time, God's mercy turns to the Jews, and God forgives them and saves them. (the remnant, the elect from Israel as seen in God's message to Elijah.) And thus, all become one. (Something like that.) There are generally three groups. The church, the nation of Israel (Jews, non-believers, not saved), and the Gentiles who are not saved. Outside the church, they are two groups.

I haven't seen a conclusive statement in scholarship that the idea of the times of the Gentiles ends and goes back.

The reason is that the mission to the nations was part of the Messianic age, so the age of the 'temple' naturally gives way to that. I believe this is found in the text of Enoch, for what that is worth.

This frames one of the major issues between Judaism and Christian faith, which Paul nailed in Eph 3:5-6. (Where he said "through the Gospel" they would say "through the Law"). They did have missionaries, but Mt 23 shows they were awful. There are hints from Paul about them ghosting his new converts and him having to start all over, like Gal 4:8,9. But the main point of it is: they believed this age of the Gentiles is when Gentiles started keeping the law; thus the term Judaizer and zealot. Paul was a leader of them before conversion.

Because of that we can understand the extensive clarifications Paul makes against the Law and being under the Law. He classed it as the 'miserable elementary principles of the world' and found people trying to make God obligated in Judaism and in Asia Minor paganism.

There are indications that the various leaders of them during the 1st century and especially in the revolt years where thinking they were anointed to make this start in Jerusalem and would have God's help. It's quite "millenial" in its own sectarian way. Jerusalem would rule the world by the Law as in the Is 2 picture. In Colossians, we find that they add sparkle like 'visions' that we find were claimed to be from the same angels as ministered the law originally.

I think your people groupings should match Rom 4, Gal 3-4, Rom 9, 11, etc about the Seed as close as possible. Or in the case of Rom 11, the olive tree.

So going back to Israel is not really the picture that I see. When the mission is over, when the outreach or harvest has swung its last cut, as decided by the Father, time of earth is done, and the NHNE are made.

Meanwhile, the Christians were the missionaries envisioned for this Gentile age. In Rom 10, they are the stars of Ps 19:1 whose voice goes out through earth! Quite an analogy, because the ancient stars informed Abraham back in the day. Now Christians are the new form of that! When reading Rom 10, don't forget the failure of (Judaizing) Israel is hanging nearby in Paul's mind. The mission work is the answer. This continues into 11. The goal is for them to be believers but also to be fishers of men, and Paul hopes the Gentile success makes them jealous.

 

[EarlyActs]

Here is background from Barnett on the setting of the readers of the Rev. It isn't perfect, but it is highly instructive:






Barnett, BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE NT: “Patmos”



Using coded language John writes of the menace of Rome to Christians. Rome is portrayed as the instrument of “a great red dragon…” (ch 12).

This dragon gave authority to two beasts, a sea beast and an earth beast, to “make war on the saints…” (ch 13). The sea beast (from his location) is John’s code for the Roman emperor (who had just required all people to refer to him as “Lord and God”), while the earth beast represents the high priest of Asia, who officiates at the major cultic activities within in the province… The earth beast engages in magical arts to hoodwink the populace into worshipping the image of the “sea beast” (ch 13).

Although the dragon appears to be rampant on earth he is in fact, bound, limited, circumscribed through the period between Christ’s resurrection and his return—symbolically a thousand years (ch 20). Those who have lost their lives for Jesus’ sake, …reign with him throughout the millenium, sharing his victory over the dragon.

John’s book, therefore, was written above all to strengthen and encourage Christians facing harassment and persecution from Roman officials in the city s of the Province of Asia. John was deeply conscious of the political events in the wider world. He made many references, in particular, to the critical events of the sixties, but in tantalizing and elusive ways.

The massing of the dreaded Parthian cavalry near the Euphrates in AD 62 and the barely averted conflict with Rome’s eastern legions appears to be in mind on a number occasions (chs 6, 9). John develops horrific images of fiendish galloping cavalry based, apparently, on his knowledge of the Parthians and Euphrates region.

The great fire which devasted the world capital in AD 64 seems to have supplied John with imagery for the coming judgment of the “harlot city.” Despite her gaudy opulence and immorality and her immense wealth and power (inspired by memories of Claudius wife, the notorious Messalina?), God will bring upon her overwhelming destruction in a single day. (ch 18)

Once again John has apparently taken an event in recent history and converted it into powerfully vivid apocalyptic language.

Nero’s bloody onslaught on Christians which followed and was a direct result of the fire of Rome also provided much of John’s descriptive language. He wrote about the woman, the harlot Rome in ch 17 and 13.

The writer’s enigmatic description of the two witnesses/two prophets who were killed and who bodies lay in the streets of the great city (ch 11) is probably but not certainly) a reference to the martyr-deaths of the apostles Peter and Paul which occurred in Rome during Nero’s persecutions. (ch 11).

Nero’s own career ended in disaster. He was condemned by the Senate…and took his own life. There were widespread beliefs in Nero redivivus that may lay behind Johns’ description of one of the heads of the sea beast which revived. (ch 13)

Nero dominated the sixties. To that point in history he had been the greatest enemy of the Christians, satanic in his dimension of evil…

The eighth king is, in all probability, Domitian. …John was using the events of the recent past to depict the future…

In contrast to Domitian’s requirement to worship him, the true Lord of Lords and King of Kings declares a gospel from heaven in which we are to worship God. It is only in this century that scholars have begun to have an appreciation of John’s profound awareness of and audacious attack upon the theological pretentiousness of Roman civilization.

It is, in my opinion, of great significance that John used the dramatic historical events within his book. In earlier decades, Christians had expected Jesus to return at any moment (2 Th 2, 3). If one had experienced the firey destruction of the ‘eternal city’ in AD 64 and the bloodbath that followed, removing as it did the great apostles Peter and Paul, or the sacking of Mount Zion and desecration of the Holy Place in AD 70, it would easily have seemed that the end would come at any moment.

But…in fact John saw the return of Jesus as not occurring for some considerable time.



--pages 237—241.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes indeed, most people don't get Paul's point in Romans 9-11, he is speaking about service unto God, therefore the Pre Trib Rapture puts Israel back on the clock so to speak of God's SERVICE timeline,

That, by any stretch of the imagination, is not Paul's point in Ro 9-11. He is not speaking about service, he is speaking about unbelief and rejection to damnation of unbelief. It couldn't be any more plain.

See Ro 9:30-33, 11:2-7, 23, 25, which hardening and unbelief has gone on for 2,000 years now, and counting.
That's a lot of condemned Israel.

 

[armylngst]

I haven't seen a conclusive statement in scholarship that the idea of the times of the Gentiles ends and goes back.

I use what Paul says in Romans 11. Israel is partially blinded/hardened until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (that wording may be off). At that time, the mercy that was extended to the Gentiles, is then extended to the Jews (again), and all Israel will be saved. (Which I believe to be the remnant. If one reads Revelation, and considers Jesus words, there aren't going to be that many people alive at the end of the tribulation.

The reason is that the mission to the nations was part of the Messianic age, so the age of the 'temple' naturally gives way to that. I believe this is found in the text of Enoch, for what that is worth.

I believe Jesus spoke to a Gentile (canaanite woman) and specifically said that he had come solely to the children of Israel. And said something about Gentiles being dogs. The women extended it to Gentiles being dogs feeding from the crumbs that fall from the table. (So the scraps from what is served to Israel).

This frames one of the major issues between Judaism and Christian faith, which Paul nailed in Eph 3:5-6. (Where he said "through the Gospel" they would say "through the Law"). They did have missionaries, but Mt 23 shows they were awful. There are hints from Paul about them ghosting his new converts and him having to start all over, like Gal 4:8,9. But the main point of it is: they believed this age of the Gentiles is when Gentiles started keeping the law; thus the term Judaizer and zealot. Paul was a leader of them before conversion.

Because of that we can understand the extensive clarifications Paul makes against the Law and being under the Law. He classed it as the 'miserable elementary principles of the world' and found people trying to make God obligated in Judaism and in Asia Minor paganism.

There are indications that the various leaders of them during the 1st century and especially in the revolt years where thinking they were anointed to make this start in Jerusalem and would have God's help. It's quite "millenial" in its own sectarian way. Jerusalem would rule the world by the Law as in the Is 2 picture. In Colossians, we find that they add sparkle like 'visions' that we find were claimed to be from the same angels as ministered the law originally.

I think your people groupings should match Rom 4, Gal 3-4, Rom 9, 11, etc about the Seed as close as possible. Or in the case of Rom 11, the olive tree.

So going back to Israel is not really the picture that I see. When the mission is over, when the outreach or harvest has swung its last cut, as decided by the Father, time of earth is done, and the NHNE are made.

I can't unsee what Paul has said. Also Papias (Polycarp's student) spoke of a 1000 year kingdom on Earth at the end. [Polycarp was a disciple of John.] Eusebius wrote of this in the Ecclesiastical History of the Church. Also mentioned that Papias believed it would be over the Jews, if I recall.

Meanwhile, the Christians were the missionaries envisioned for this Gentile age. In Rom 10, they are the stars of Ps 19:1 whose voice goes out through earth! Quite an analogy, because the ancient stars informed Abraham back in the day. Now Christians are the new form of that! When reading Rom 10, don't forget the failure of (Judaizing) Israel is hanging nearby in Paul's mind. The mission work is the answer. This continues into 11. The goal is for them to be believers but also to be fishers of men, and Paul hopes the Gentile success makes them jealous.

I don't read too much into things.

 

[EarlyActs]

I use what Paul says in Romans 11. Israel is partially blinded/hardened until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (that wording may be off). At that time, the mercy that was extended to the Gentiles, is then extended to the Jews (again), and all Israel will be saved. (Which I believe to be the remnant. If one reads Revelation, and considers Jesus words, there aren't going to be that many people alive at the end of the tribulation.

I believe Jesus spoke to a Gentile (canaanite woman) and specifically said that he had come solely to the children of Israel. And said something about Gentiles being dogs. The women extended it to Gentiles being dogs feeding from the crumbs that fall from the table. (So the scraps from what is served to Israel).

I can't unsee what Paul has said. Also Papias (Polycarp's student) spoke of a 1000 year kingdom on Earth at the end. [Polycarp was a disciple of John.] Eusebius wrote of this in the Ecclesiastical History of the Church. Also mentioned that Papias believed it would be over the Jews, if I recall.

I don't read too much into things.

on the blindness, people have made the assumption that if the word "until" is there, then there is automatically reversion. This should not be assumed. If I tell a babysitter, you can watch TV til we get back, she should not assume she can watch TV after we get back. Nor any other unstated, like she can't watch anymore when we get back.

There is no reading-in in Ps 19. It's quoted in Rom 10. What may be news is the astronomical understanding. This goes back to the play on the words in Gen 15 'reckon' and 'count.' God was telling him to read the stars to see why he would have so many children; they were saying Christ would be born in Israel as King and as a bridge between God and man. Then God 'reckons' or counts Abraham righteousness, meaning, what Abraham just saw and embraced was to counted that way. (This does not have to do with the count--the sands of the sea). Abraham rejoiced and saw Christ's day! For more see Larson's THE STAR OF BETHLEHEM.

 

[armylngst]

on the blindness, people have made the assumption that if the word "until" is there, then there is automatically reversion. This should not be assumed. If I tell a babysitter, you can watch TV til we get back, she should not assume she can watch TV after we get back. Nor any other unstated, like she can't watch anymore when we get back.

There is a reversion. Your example is flawed. If you tell the babysitter, they can watch TV til you get back, she should not assume that she could watch your TV before she arrived. The pattern Paul is saying is that Israel was not blinded, then was made blind, when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, the blindness will be removed. For your example, Israel is not blind | baysitter is on the way to their job; Israel is blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in | Babysitter is told they can watch TV until you get home; The fulness of the gentiles comes in and the blindness is removed, and Israel is saved | You come home, the Babysitter can no longer watch TV and the Babysitter goes home. The understanding is there. What does Paul say happens after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in? All Israel is saved. So, the understanding is that the partial blindness, the partial hardening is removed at that time. It is all rather logical and rational in the layout. Perhaps you are upset that God would still consider saving the Jews? Does it hurt to read Paul saying that salvation is first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles?

There is no reading-in in Ps 19. It's quoted in Rom 10. What may be news is the astronomical understanding. This goes back to the play on the words in Gen 15 'reckon' and 'count.' God was telling him to read the stars to see why he would have so many children; they were saying Christ would be born in Israel as King and as a bridge between God and man. Then God 'reckons' or counts Abraham righteousness, meaning, what Abraham just saw and embraced was to counted that way. (This does not have to do with the count--the sands of the sea). Abraham rejoiced and saw Christ's day! For more see Larson's THE STAR OF BETHLEHEM.

You are reading in a lot. Romans 10 deals with salvation by faith. Genesis 15 speaks of Abraham's faith be accounted as righteousness. How? That righteousness had to come from somewhere. It did. From Jesus dying on the cross. God credited Abraham's faith to what Jesus accomplished on the cross. He was saved the same way we are, though Jesus had yet to come and die. Abraham was saved by faith. That had nothing to do with God's promise that Abraham would could never count the number of descendants he would have, since he never would be able to count the number of stars. The only part of that which meant anything is that Abraham took God at His word. He believed what God said without question. The reason Abraham had no problem sacrificing Isaac on the mountain is because Abraham so believed God's promise that he knew God would resurrect Isaac then and there to make good on His promise. This is why Abraham rejoiced to see Christ's day, for it was also the day of Abraham's ultimate salvation, and that of countless other Old Testament saints.

 

[armylngst]

I haven't seen a conclusive statement in scholarship that the idea of the times of the Gentiles ends and goes back.

The reason is that the mission to the nations was part of the Messianic age, so the age of the 'temple' naturally gives way to that. I believe this is found in the text of Enoch, for what that is worth.

This frames one of the major issues between Judaism and Christian faith, which Paul nailed in Eph 3:5-6. (Where he said "through the Gospel" they would say "through the Law"). They did have missionaries, but Mt 23 shows they were awful. There are hints from Paul about them ghosting his new converts and him having to start all over, like Gal 4:8,9. But the main point of it is: they believed this age of the Gentiles is when Gentiles started keeping the law; thus the term Judaizer and zealot. Paul was a leader of them before conversion.

Because of that we can understand the extensive clarifications Paul makes against the Law and being under the Law. He classed it as the 'miserable elementary principles of the world' and found people trying to make God obligated in Judaism and in Asia Minor paganism.

There are indications that the various leaders of them during the 1st century and especially in the revolt years where thinking they were anointed to make this start in Jerusalem and would have God's help. It's quite "millenial" in its own sectarian way. Jerusalem would rule the world by the Law as in the Is 2 picture. In Colossians, we find that they add sparkle like 'visions' that we find were claimed to be from the same angels as ministered the law originally.

I think your people groupings should match Rom 4, Gal 3-4, Rom 9, 11, etc about the Seed as close as possible. Or in the case of Rom 11, the olive tree.

So going back to Israel is not really the picture that I see. When the mission is over, when the outreach or harvest has swung its last cut, as decided by the Father, time of earth is done, and the NHNE are made.

Meanwhile, the Christians were the missionaries envisioned for this Gentile age. In Rom 10, they are the stars of Ps 19:1 whose voice goes out through earth! Quite an analogy, because the ancient stars informed Abraham back in the day. Now Christians are the new form of that! When reading Rom 10, don't forget the failure of (Judaizing) Israel is hanging nearby in Paul's mind. The mission work is the answer. This continues into 11. The goal is for them to be believers but also to be fishers of men, and Paul hopes the Gentile success makes them jealous.

It is better to understand it as the fullness of the Gentiles coming in. Consider that to be when God is completed gathering His elect from amongst the Gentiles. The harvest is complete. God then, as Paul says in Romans 11, turns to the remnant of Israel, those still alive, and saves them by the same mercy that took the gospel to the Gentiles. (I didn't think of this earlier.) You can read about it at the end of Zechariah 12.

 

[armylngst]

Our eternal destiny is determined by the state in which we die, belief or unbelief.

And I mostly agree with that. I believe the other state is apostate or not apostate, because Hebrews speaks of apostasy as being final and life-destroying. John goes as far as saying the apostate who leaves the church (final rejection) was never part of the church. However, this state is solely between God and the person in question.

Israel's problem is that God had hardened the majority, who remain hardened to this day, except for a remnant whom he is saving, just as he is saving a remnant of the Gentiles.

There is no remnant of the Gentiles. The Gentiles were never the chosen of people of God, so there can't be a remnant. They are saved, or unsaved. For the Jews, the nation of Israel is the chosen nation of God. However, the majority rejected God, even though they were His chosen network. However, there was a remnant that continued to hold out, and hold onto God. The Gentiles never had that. They are either saved or unsaved. For the Jews, they are either the ones who rejected God, or the remnant that God says always exists. The remnant that did not reject God. See the difference. It isn't two programs. It is one program with multiple tracks. Each track is different, however, at the end they all merge back into the program solution. All the tracks enter back into the main program. So while we are all different, comes from different backgrounds, had differing relationships with God from the day we are born, in the end, all become one. The closest we get to this final reality before it occurs is found in the church, the body of believers.

God's people always have been, and always will be a remnant.

For Israel, yes God's people have always been a remnant. God defined the remnant and why they are a remnant, and Gentiles do not fit in that definition.

 

[Eleanor]

And I mostly agree with that. I believe the other state is apostate or not apostate, because Hebrews speaks of apostasy as being final and life-destroying. John goes as far as saying the apostate who leaves the church (final rejection) was never part of the church. However, this state is solely between God and the person in question.

There is no remnant of the Gentiles. The Gentiles were never the chosen of people of God, so there can't be a remnant.

Remnant simply means a few, not all, of anything.
It is not an exclusive term used only for the people of God.
However, it is a Biblical fact, God saves only a remnant of mankind.

They are saved, or unsaved. For the Jews, the nation of Israel is the chosen nation of God.

Which the NT shows rejected and murdered their Messiah, for which the nation was hardened in unbelief and cut off as God's people, being replaced with Gentiles ( Ro 11:16-23).

However, the majority rejected God, even though they were His chosen network. However, there was a remnant that continued to hold out, and hold onto God. The Gentiles never had that. They are either saved or unsaved.

They don't need to have that for the feet-on-the-ground fact that only a remnant of mankind is being saved.

For the Jews, they are either the ones who rejected God, or the remnant that God says always exists. The remnant that did not reject God. See the difference. It isn't two programs. It is one program with multiple tracks. Each track is different, however,

There are not two tracks for God's people in NT apostolic teaching, there is only one. Salvation is by faith in and trust on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God. There is no other way to be saved from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on your sin.
Track two is simply the unbelievers.

at the end they all merge back into the program solution. All the tracks enter back into the main program.

That is nowhere presented in authoritative NT apostolic teaching, in fact, it is contrary to the NT apostolic teaching of the one olive tree of God's people, the church, of both OT and NT believers, going all the way back to Abraham, from whom unbelieving Israel has been cut off, and whose destiny is to be grafted back into that one olive tree, the NT church, IF (not "when") they do not continue in unbelief (Ro 11:16-23).

So while we are all different, comes from different backgrounds, had differing relationships with God from the day we are born, in the end, all become one. The closest we get to this final reality before it occurs is found in the church, the body of believers.

And that one body of believers, the one olive tree of God's people, the church, goes all the way back to Abraham (Ro 11:16-23).

For Israel, yes God's people have always been a remnant. God defined the remnant and why they are a remnant, and Gentiles do not fit in that definition.

The word remnant is not exclusive to the Bible. It has a specific meaning in the Bible, but the word is not exclusive to the Bible.

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

That, by any stretch of the imagination, is not Paul's point in Ro 9-11. He is not speaking about service, he is speaking about unbelief and rejection to damnation of unbelief. It couldn't be any more plain.

See Ro 9:30-33, 11:2-7, 23, 25, which hardening and unbelief has gone on for 2,000 years now, and counting.
That's a lot of condemned Israel.

I can prove he is speaking about SERVICE as well as Faith, which is what I stated. I only been preaching nigh 40 years, I should know this a wee bit. The problem with most people is they do not look at a wide enough portion per se, in other words they take one verse and try and run with it. Like John 5:43, people look at that and then try to say that this applies to the End Time A.C. and thus they all see the Anti-Christ as a fake messiah, when John 5:43 is specifically about the Pharisees who lived in Jesus' times, they refused to accept Jesus as from the Father, but as Jesus stated, these sane Pharisees (thus YE) will accept another who comes in his own name [as the messiah). Well, what most people not studied does not understand is the Pharisees, who were learned men, understood that Rome was the Fourth Beast, thus around 67-70 AD they put forth various men as the "messiah" who they saw as a political savior, not a man born as God's son, thus a Divine Human Being. So, John 5:43 was fulfilled in 70 AD, but people not studied do not grasp this at all. So, they think Israel accepts a False Messiah, which is just not true, they sign an agreement (basically they will join the E.U. that is the "Covenant/Agreement". So, that is just one of many examples.

Teaching Romans 9-11 correctly is very important. I will show how Roman's 9-11 is not only a letter unto the Romans warning them not to fall into unbelief like Israel did, but showing the Roman's how they should not get the big head that they are "of God but Israel is not", because God Himself chooses whom He will, when He will to use for SERVICE, just as God used Cyrus, just as he used President Harry S. Truman to help bring Israel back as a nation, just as He used Trump to bring forth the Abraham Accords which was a must needs in order to fulfill prophecy, so God can and does use Godly men and Ungodly men. Remember, this is a Letter unto the Roman Church.

Rom. 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 {For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth} 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. m15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore?(WHY) Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

CONTINUED.......

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

So, in vs. 4 Paul says that this is about Israel and their SERVICE unto God. He uses this to show them that God uses who He wills, but Israel trusted in the laws of Moses over the Faith of the promised seed (Jesus), so the warning to the Romans is don't you follow them down that road (we can see thus warning in full in Rom. 11). Paul says only those of Faith are heirs, so do not forget that Romans, being born a Jew does nit make one an heir.

Paul them gives them a demonstration, he shows Esau was born first but before either had did any good or evil, God CHOSE Jacob the YOUNGER for SERVICE, and Esau the Elder would serve Jacob. This is a picture of the Church which is the YOUNGER (Church) whom the ELDER (Israel) would have to serve. Esau served Jacob and Israel served the Church. God has mercy on whom He wills and choses whom he will harden is carried on via the Pharaoh. The Potter (God) chooses the vessel he gives honor unto and the one he creates in dishonor is Paul saying God chooses whom he will to SERVE Him, this become very obvious when one digs down deep. I can say it over and over, but those who refuse to study it in depth will never see it.

Most people do not grasp verses 22-26, what Paul is trying to tell "the Romans" is hey, what if God is willing to show His wrath [against Israel] to make known His power unto the rest of the world (Gentiles) known, so much so that He withheld the justice that Israel deserved for a very long time, so that those of who chosen for Glory (because we accept Jesus by faith) will be able to come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, because Jesus had to be birthed, thus God withheld His wrath against Israel in order to have mercy on everyone. Paul is merely explaining that Israel deserved this wrath of Gid long ago. But then he tells them a Remnant [of Israel] will be saved eventually, God's calling is without repentance, the Kingdom Age will happen. Israel has fallen because of unbelief, as will you Romans if you abide not in faith, but Israel has not been forsaken.

So, clearly this is not just about Belief/Faith and Unbelief, it is also about how God chooses whom He will to SERVE Him at any given time, that thread runs through Romans 9 over and over again. He hardened Pharaoh, but has mercy on whom He will. He created the Vessel He so choses. God chose Jacob the Younger (think Church) to serve Esau the Elder (think of Israel as the elder here).

If one studies Rom. 9-11 in detail they can see this is a thread about both FAITH & SERVICE, you seem to only see the Faith portion, which I also see, you claiming it is only about Faith however is not correct. Thus when we get to Rom. 11 and the Fulness of the Gentiles or time of the Gentiles FULL SERVICE, which is why I say time, its about a SERVICE PERIOD of time, so when we get there and read the Fulness of the Gentiles has come in, we know the Churches service is over or completed, thus Israel is blind, as a nation, until God Raptures us out, Pre Trib. That is al it means, God is not finished with Israel, BUT..........He will not deal with them until the Churches mission statement of taking the Gospel unto the whole world is complete. Yes, Rom. 9-11 is about Israel lack of faith, Paul uses that to try and teach the Romans what they should and should not do, but he also tells them about service as chosen by God, and how God will chose Israel for service once again , but only after the Churches (Gentiles) mission is complete. Scriptures have to be studied in depth, taking verses out of context, or denying the compete context is a no no.

 

[Eleanor]

I can prove he is speaking about SERVICE as well as Faith, which is what I stated. I only been preaching nigh 40 years, I should know this a wee bit. The problem with most people is they do not look at a wide enough portion per se, in other words they take one verse and try and run with it. Like John 5:43, people look at that and then try to say that this applies to the End Time A.C. and thus they all see the Anti-Christ as a fake messiah, when John 5:43 is specifically about the Pharisees who lived in Jesus' times, they refused to accept Jesus as from the Father, but as Jesus stated, these sane Pharisees (thus YE) will accept another who comes in his own name [as the messiah). Well, what most people not studied does not understand is the Pharisees, who were learned men, understood that Rome was the Fourth Beast, thus around 67-70 AD they put forth various men as the "messiah" who they saw as a political savior, not a man born as God's son, thus a Divine Human Being. So, John 5:43 was fulfilled in 70 AD, but people not studied do not grasp this at all. So, they think Israel accepts a False Messiah, which is just not true, they sign an agreement (basically they will join the E.U. that is the "Covenant/Agreement". So, that is just one of many examples.

Teaching Romans 9-11 correctly is very important. I will show how Roman's 9-11 is not only a letter unto the Romans warning them not to fall into unbelief like Israel did,

In the context of the book of Romans, of which chps 2-8 is a presentation of righteousness from God, demonstrating the unrighteousness of all mankind and God's righteousness imputed in justification and imparted in sanctifictaion, in chps 9-11 Paul then vindicates God's righteousness in the rejection of Israel.
The burden of Ro 9-11 is not warning the Romans, it is a demonstration of God's justice in rejecting Israel and showing the cause of his rejection--unbelief.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. m15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore?(WHY) Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[Eleanor]

So, in vs. 4 Paul says that this is about Israel and their SERVICE unto God. He uses this to show them that God uses who He wills, but Israel trusted in the laws of Moses over the Faith of the promised seed (Jesus), so the warning to the Romans is don't you follow them down that road (we can see thus warning in full in Rom. 11). Paul says only those of Faith are heirs, so do not forget that Romans, being born a Jew does nit make one an heir.
Paul them gives them a demonstration, he shows Esau was born first but before either had did any good or evil, God CHOSE Jacob the YOUNGER for SERVICE, and Esau the Elder would serve Jacob. This is a picture of the Church which is the YOUNGER (Church) whom the ELDER (Israel) would have to serve. Esau served Jacob and Israel served

the Church. God has mercy on whom He wills and choses whom he will harden is carried on via the Pharaoh. The Potter (God) chooses the vessel he gives honor unto and the one he creates in dishonor is Paul saying God chooses whom he will to SERVE Him, this become very obvious when one digs down deep. I can say it over and over, but those who refuse to study it in depth will never see it.
Most people do not grasp verses 22-26, what Paul is trying to tell "the Romans" is hey, what if God is willing to show His wrath [against Israel] to make known His power unto the rest of the world (Gentiles) known,

Are you sure about that?

Paul ends chp 8 with "nothing can separate God's people from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus, our Lord."
Which brings him to the question: But what about Israel? They are cut off.
Which he addresses in Ro 9 by presenting the sovereignty of God in election to his purposes, as in the cases of Isaac and Jacob.
In response to man's charge against God of injustice regarding Ishmael and Esau, Paul asserts the sovereignty of God to do as he pleases, using Pharaoh as an example. Which then brings up the question of blame. How can Pharaoh be blamed if it was all by the sovereignty of God? To which Paul replies basically, "He's God, and you're not."

Then in v.22-26 he addresses God's use of Pharaoh as a foil for the elect, demonstrating the riches of his glory to the objects of his mercy,
using Hos 2:23 regarding the spiritual restoration of Israel--to place the emphasis on God's mercy to the elect, rather than his wrath on the condemned--showing that God is a saving, forgiving, restoring God, who delights to take those who are "not my people" (Gentiles) and make them "my people" by sovereignly grafting them into covenant relationship (see chp 11).

Ro 9:22-26 is not presenting God withholding his justice from Israel so that the Gentiles can come to the knowledge of Christ.
It's about giving Israel more time for repentance.
It is about presenting God in terms of the riches of his glory to the objects of his mercy, by his deserving destruction of unbelievers.
It's about showing that God is a saving, forgiving, restoring God who delights to make the Gentiles his people.

It's not about Israel and service, it's about the glory of God, in both justice and mercy.

Romans 1-11 is about the unrighteousness of all mankind, the righteousness and sovereignty of God in election and salvation,
with Pharaoh being an example of his sovereignty for the sake of the elect, and
Israel being an example of his sovereignty in salvation, in their stumbling over the "stumbling stone" (Ro 9:32-33).

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

Are you sure about that?

Paul ends chp 8 with "nothing can separate God's people from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus, our Lord."
Which brings him to the question: But what about Israel? They are cut off.
Which he addresses in Ro 9 by presenting the sovereignty of God in election to his purposes, as in the cases of Isaac and Jacob.
In response to man's charge against God of injustice regarding Ishmael and Esau, Paul asserts the sovereignty of God to do as he pleases, using Pharaoh as an example. Which then brings up the question of blame. How can Pharaoh be blamed if it was all by the sovereignty of God? To which Paul replies basically, "He's God, and you're not."

Then in v.22-26 he addresses God's use of Pharaoh as a foil for the elect, demonstrating the riches of his glory to the objects of his mercy,
using Hos 2:23 regarding the spiritual restoration of Israel--to place the emphasis on God's mercy to the elect, rather than his wrath on the condemned--showing that God is a saving, forgiving, restoring God, who delights to take those who are "not my people" (Gentiles) and make them "my people" by sovereignly grafting them into covenant relationship (see chp 11).

Ro 9:22-26 is not presenting God withholding his justice from Israel so that the Gentiles can come to the knowledge of Christ.
It's about giving Israel more time for repentance.
It is about presenting God in terms of the riches of his glory to the objects of his mercy, by his deserving destruction of unbelievers.
It's about showing that God is a saving, forgiving, restoring God who delights to make the Gentiles his people.

It's not about Israel and service, it's about the glory of God, in both justice and mercy.

Romans 1-11 is about the unrighteousness of all mankind, the righteousness and sovereignty of God in election and salvation,
with Pharaoh being an example of his sovereignty for the sake of the elect, and
Israel being an example of his sovereignty in salvation, in their stumbling over the "stumbling stone" (Ro 9:32-33).

You run a mile to try and avoid a point that walking a block could solve. Rom. 9-11 is about Faith AND Service, you can't deny that. So we get a mile run instead to conflate the issues. My original point was that the Fulness of the Gentiles (Time of the Gentiles) is referring unto the Churches Service in Israel absence, God saw Israel as Dead Men's Bones for nigh 2000 years, He brought them back, but they still lacked Breath (Holy Spirit) as a nation. Paul here is saying ALL Israel (Not every Jew, but Israel as a nation) will be saved., but only after the Gentiles Service s complete.

So, why is this very important to understand? Because way too many Gentile Christians try to replace Israel with the Church. That is why God's SERVICE is s important here. God chose Israel to birth the Messiah (Mission complete). God then chose the Gentile Church to take the Gospel unto all the world, Mission nigh complete, I see the Rapture as no later than the fall of 2025, then again I am a Prophecy guy, called unto that for nigh 40 years. Then Israel's service will kick back in, because God can not lie, He promised this to Abraham, we the Church do not replace Israel. That is why Paul says God's calling is without repentance.