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Covenant of Works

Christ's work yes.Keeping in mind that the Edenic covenant and the Mosaic covenant are all part of the covenant of works.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes and yes. Though I would not word it as Jesus earning righteousness---He was proven righteous---which is the only way in which His righteousness could be imputed to the believer. The sin of Adam and our own sins counted as His-----His righteousness counted as ours. What He earned was the ability to impute His righteousness.
You are the best. Thank you. As to “earning righteousness,“ I am uncomfortable with that whole concept when speaking about the Logos made flesh, but that is the language used by these subject matter experts/authors.
 
You are the best. Thank you. As to “earning righteousness,“ I am uncomfortable with that whole concept when speaking about the Logos made flesh, but that is the language used by these subject matter experts/authors.
When it comes to earning Righteousness, this is seen in Deuteronomy 28; IE the Mosaic Covenant of Works, not the Edenic Covenant of Works...

The Edenic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant are the same Covenant of Works; perhaps there were Ten Apples on the Tree of Knowledge to break. Jesus Kept the Edenic Covenant by keeping the Mosaic Covenant...

There are two Heads of the Covenant of Works; IE the Edenic and Mosaic Covenants, as seen in Romans 5. Adam is the Head of the Edenic Covenant of Works, and Jesus is the Head of the Mosaic Covenant of Works; one Covenant of Works, but with two Heads. A good example for this are the famous three rivers. There's the Allegheny, the Monongahela, and these two rivers meet to form the one Ohio River. Something similar happens with the Covenant of Works. Without the Allegheny meeting the Monongahela, there would be no Ohio River; the Monongahela River would be flowing where the Ohio River basin is. Therefore, without Christ Keeping the Mosaic Covenant of Works, the Edenic Covenant of Works would always and only flow through the Sea of All Mankind. But since Jesus Kept the 'Limited to Israel' Mosaic Covenant, and because there's only one Covenant of Works; he Kept the Edenic Covenant too, and thus is the Second Adam of the Edenic Covenant. The Edenic Covenant had no Atonement in it; the first Commandment with a positive Promise, came in the Middle of the Mosaic Covenant. The Edenic Covenant only had a negative Promise; that Adam/Man SHALL die. As the Second Adam, he is the Propitiation for the World. As a Prophet like Moses, he is the Savior of Israel only. As a Gentile can enter into the Covenant of Moses, anyone in the Edenic Covenant can enter into the New Covenant that Jesus ratified in the Heavenly Holy of Hollies with his Blood...
 
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Hi @Guy Swenson, welcome to the forum (although I believe we've traded posts elsewhere if my memory serves me well.

If it hasn't already been done then I recommend reading Stephen Wellum's "Kingdom Through Covenant" and "God's Kingdoms Through Covenants," and Michael D. Williams' "As Far as the Curse is Found" and other sources positing and explaining what's come to be called "Progressive Covenantalism," or the belief the Bible's mentions of covenants should be understood as a progressive revelation, or a revelation of covenant that progresses to reveal God's one redemptive plan for his one people that finds fulfillment in Christ and the "new covenant." In other words, there's really only one covenant but it is revealed incrementally in progressive manner.

Of course, any covenant of works stands apart from that which is found in Christ but just as obvious is the fact neither phrase "covenant of works" or "covenant of grace" are phrases found explicitly stated in the scriptures. Ask yourself if in all your reading you ever found Fesko, Abendroth, Grudem, or Calvin acknowledging those facts :unsure:. I call myself monergist but contribute to the forums as a Calvinists for the sake of ease. Monergism comes in many forms (Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Pink, Sproul, Frame, etc.) and should not be thought monolithic. For good or bad the soteriology that believes God is the sole causal agent in salvation is generically called "Calvinism," even if it departs in some places from Calvin's views.

This next suggestion may sound crazy but Some reading of John Rousas Rushdoony's "The Institutes of the Biblical Law" or "Law and Liberty" (if you can find them) or Greg Bahnsen's "By This Standard" (which is free in e-format). Rushdoony and Bahnsen (Gentry, Chilton, Demar and many others) are Reconstructionists, Postmillennial, Dominionist, Theonomists, Reconstructionists which is a fringe view form most of us. I recommend those books because theonomy asserts the laws of God found in the OT remain in place, at least in principle, unless explicitly terminated or canceled in the NT. The Zondervan Counterpoints series book, "Five Views on Law and Gospel" surveys five different views on the subject the OT Law of Moses relevant to the gospel of Christ.

These recommendations will more diversely inform your thinking on Covenant Theology and, by extension the covenant of works.

I'll handle this content in a separate post. For now, I will say I am a stickler for scripture, and the necessity of building doctrine on scripture that exegetically well rendered - beginning with what is explicitly stated in scripture and not proof-texted. My fellow CCAMers will tell you I can be quite bothersome with these expectations. The honest and forthcoming ones will also tell you it is difficult to argue against such a case.

For example, my first thought was, "Where is the mention of a 'probationary period' in scripture?" Perhaps there is such a statement and I am unaware of its existence. I know the Bible fairly well but I don't know everything. Show me where I can find "probationary period" explicitly mentioned and I'll accept the argument (presto, changeo, just like that because the proof was provided!). Absent an explicit mention the next best option is 1) an honest and forthcoming acknowledgment the phrase is NOT explicitly mentioned in scripture and it is a post-canonical phrase asserted by man-made doctrine (which is what most of this thread will be about) and then 2) you making the case for the valid, veracious, and efficacious use of the phrase with that case made from well-rendered or exegetically rendered scripture. When you do this in your own words it sharpens your own faculties, improves your argument (making it more impervious to critics), and most importantly proves the matter.

So where's the scripture?

I also tend to be an exacting sort of poster on occasions like this, and it can bug the most patient and tolerant so let me also say I am likely (as time permits) to go through this portion of your opening post line by line. According to some, I'm fairly good at forensic analysis. I'll say this: I have no expectation you will respond to every little detail I post. Since this is only your first point and it has multiple sub-points, the thread could prove lengthy, detailed, and perhaps tedious. Take what you like from my posts and respond as you see fit. I'll endeavor to avoid, "You ignored X !"
Hello - I see that I missed your post. My apologies. Please be exacting - I certainly will be in my analysis of the C.O.W. and the Scriptural basis for it - or lack thereof. Regarding a period of “probation” - the Bible texts are explicit that there is none … but I am getting ahead of myself. My first argument based on my “Conclusion #1” will be forthcoming. I would appreciate your critique of the use of Scripture both pro and con.
 
It is not the tree of knowledge but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Yes life is implied for perfect obedience but there was no restriction given on eating of the tree of life. God said "Of every tree in the garden to may eat except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He did not forbid them from eating of the tree of life. They had life. The tree was the source of life and imo is a shadow of what is revealed in the NT about Jesus. (John 14:6; John 8:12; John 1:1-18)

His righteousness at creation did not need to be proven. It existed. He would become unrighteous only if he violated any of God's commands. The one violation that would guarantee death was if he gained the knowledge of evil along with his knowledge of good. If he did not violate it one can presume that he and his posterity would live forever. But you see, he was created, corruptible but not corrupt, and mortal, able to die. The violation that gave him knowledge of evil corrupted him. And the corruption led to death. Which would also require that he no longer have access to the tree of life. And here is where the covenant of works must be interwoven with the covenant of grace---or eternal life through faith apart from works. They are both working together, in and through one another, in a beautiful and harmonious tapestry, with the consummation being mankind in Christ, being both incorruptible and immortal. Not in the same position he was in as created. Speculation into things that are not mentioned and naming them as the truth, and working outward from there, is bad apologetics.
Adam was not created with eternal life and he was not created incorruptible. The tree of life is not said to give eternal life, but is the tree from which life comes. He was never intended to have eternal life. An enemy had to be defeated once and for all and that, evidently, given what we are shown in the whole counsel of God, could only be done in the way in which it was done. Through all mankind becoming as their father Adam. And Christ becoming one of us and defeating that enemy sin and death by defeating the father of lies. And the new man, new creation in Him, becoming incorruptible and immortal. No more knowledge of evil for there is no evil.
Great post!

We have eternal life now, and we are not incorruptible (physical-death proof).
Could Adam not likewise have been created with eternal life and not incorruptible?
 
@Guy Swenson @ReverendRV

Both @His clay and @Josheb are often absent from the forum for a period of time, I assume due to other duties and activities, but always do return, or have. So we may have to wait for their participation when they return and catch up. Perhaps in the counter to the covenant of works which I understand is coming. Hopefully others will join the conversation too. I am looking forward to it. Such a welcome breather from the same old thing.
 
New forum member here.

I am writing on the Covenant of Works and distilled four conclusions about the C.O.W. from my reading. (Fesko/Abendroth/Grudem/Calvin and a some others.) I’m interested to see if my summaries are correct - or if in error, what is in error. One of the admins here saw my posts on another forum and thought I would get more feedback here.

Here is the first of the four conclusions. i appreciate your reviews, comments, observations and suggestions - it is important to me to understand and accurately represent the doctrine of the C.O.W.

Conclusion #1: Preconditions and Probation

“Adam had to, over a probationary period of time, perform “works” of righteousness by meeting the conditions of personal, perfect and perpetual obedience before God would allow Adam to eat from the tree of life.”

Sub Points:

1. Adam was given an undisclosed period of time (called “probation”) to prove whether he would demonstrate “personal, perfect, and perpetual obedience” to God – or disobey God and sin.

2. Only after the successful demonstration of these works of “personal, perfect, and perpetual obedience” during the time of his “probation,” would Adam have proven his perfect righteousness, earned eternal life, and be allowed to eat to the tree of life and thereby live forever.

is this correct?

Per @ReverendRV 's suggestion, I'm not exactly a Calvinist, but close enough.

Conclusion #1, if correctly represented, is incorrect. Fabrication.

Like all self-deterministic systems, it attributes substance to this vapor of temporal reality, and ignores the absolute reality of God's decree.
 
Per @ReverendRV 's suggestion, I'm not exactly a Calvinist, but close enough.

Conclusion #1, if correctly represented, is incorrect. Fabrication.

Like all self-deterministic systems, it attributes substance to this vapor of temporal reality, and ignores the absolute reality of God's decree.
But does it represent the Covenant of Works?

@Guy Swenson doesn't agree with the Covenant of Works, he just wants to know if he's gotten it right...

It would be like if I wanted to talk about Mormonism, and first wanted to see if Mormons agree with my Synopsis...
 
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Great post!

We have eternal life now, and we are not incorruptible (physical-death proof).
Could Adam not likewise have been created with eternal life and not incorruptible?
He could have been of course. But he was not and the reason he was not was to serve a purpose of God. We know what that long term purpose is because Scripture tells us. The utter destruction of all of God's enemies, and a people for Himself. This destruction of His enemies is being done through the redemption of people. And also destroys all our enemies. Pretty amazing!
 
As I have shown in my comments on Fesko this too repeats what is not given in the Bible. The idea of a probationary period. There is no indication in the scriptures that Adam was in a probationary period. He was created in a state of righteousness with no knowledge of evil. That righteousness ended when he disobeyed God. He became instead a sinner. A creature who knows good and evil, therefore is cut off from intimate life with God. It is completely unnecessary to read a probationary period into the scriptures.

I fully agree that Christ had to live a life of perfect righteousness to the covenant of works in both the Edenic covenant and the Mosaic in order
to qualify as our substitute and give us His righteousness imputed. That is how He earned forgiveness for us
In the Mosaic sacrificial system, which is the pattern and rule for Christ's sacrifice, forgiveness was simply by paying the penalty for sin; i.e., the death of a perfect animal.
No performance was required of the perfect animal, only its death.
Likewise, our forgiveness is simply by paying the penalty for sin; i.e., the death of a perfect human, no performance required of the human, only his death.
Jesus was born righteous, he did not have to become righteous, like Adam he only had to not fall from righteousness.
He "earned" forgiveness for us simply by paying our sin debt for us; i.e., death.
He did not have to qualify as our substitute, he was born qualified; i.e., righteous. He simply had to not lose his qualification.
He obeyed all laws of righteousness not in order to become righteous, but in order not to lose through disobedience the righteousness he already had.
However, paying our sin debt only forgave us, only rendered us not guilty.
Right standing with God (positional forensic righteousness) was then imputed to us in justification through faith (Ro 4:1-11).
so I do not understand the comment in red above. It seems utterly unnecessary and meaningless.

No it does not answer my concern about the use of the word probation. Which is different from preconditions which I never stated I had a concern with. Also the Bible does not state that Adam's access to the tree of life was restricted until after he broke the covenant.
 
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duplication
 
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But does it represent the Covenant of Works?

@Guy Swenson doesn't agree with the Covenant of Works, he just wants to know if he's gotten it right...

It would be like if I wanted to talk about Mormonism, and first wanted to see if Mormons agree with my Synopsis...
Well, I'm not much into the addiction to Covenant Theology, since some representations of it so closely resemble Dispensationalism.... I already have a problem with the term, "Covenant of Works", though I don't offhand have a better name for the reality of it.

I agree there is a lot to it, in how God deals with humanity, and even in how God deals with the Elect, individually and corporately, but I don't see how Conclusion #1 represents any truth to Covenant Theology.
 
He did not have to qualify as our substitute, he was born qualified; i.e., righteous. He simply had to not lose his qualification.
Right. I will say it in my way to make sure we are saying the same thing. Yes, he was born righteous---in the sense that He did not have inherited sin as we do. Still, He had to maintain righteousness unto death. Which kind of makes mockery of logic in the assertion of a probationary period for Adam. He too would have to maintain righteousness unto death but would not die as long as he had access to the tree of life. I think that is why the teaching comes up that he did not have access to the tree of life until this probationary period had passed. But it is made up out of thin air.

Truthfully, I think the whole problem with the way in which the "experts" quoted worded it was because the entire thing is viewed strictly from a human starting point. Not God's.
 
For my challenges, I intend to offer them sequentially, as I have the conclusions. They are organized by conclusion. Each is way to long to offer as a post, and I see there is the ability to load files. Is there any problem if I upload a PDF for each one and those interested can respond/quote from that?
Can't do PDF on here.
 
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Perfection ~ by ReverendRV * August 8

Hebrews 5:9 KJV
; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Even though Jesus was God's Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. This is something that is pretty hard to swallow; unless you consider this as speaking of Christ’s Humanity. You ask, “Why would a perfect man need to be made perfect??” Your question is bogged down with a Presupposition; when the Bible says that he needed to be made perfect, why would you say that he was already perfect? ~ I know someone who is troubled by a relative who comes to their house and always judges how clean it is. This relative is the type who spring-cleans their home daily. The judging is harsh, but the truth of the matter is that the house is cleaned ‘Good’; although it may not be ‘Perfect’. I told this person not to worry, even ‘Good’ was good enough for God; let me explain. ~ When God created the world he saw that it was ‘Good’. We have a tendency to define this as ‘Perfect’ because there was no Sin in the world; yet. Just like Jesus, the first Man Adam needed to be perfected. Keeping the Law of God comes with a promise; ‘it will be our Righteousness’. But the problem is that only Adam and Jesus could be made Perfect by God’s Law; It makes us Imperfect…

These two men were brought forth Sinless and are the only two people that God chose to be Federal Heads for Humanity; you are either with one or the other. Since everyone else is born in Adam’s jurisdiction, the Law of God cannot help you at all. Have you ever told a Lie? What do you call someone that tells Lies? Not so perfect; are you? Have you ever Stolen anything? What do you call someone who Steals? Have you ever used God as a filthy cuss word? Just how many of the Ten Commandments can we break and still be Good; no less still be Perfect?? These are only a few of the ten; if God judged you by them would you be guilty or innocent? God sends guilty Sinners to Hell forever. ~ You object, “You said earlier that ‘Good’ is good enough for God?!” This is true for someone who is like Switzerland and neutral; but you are not an unfallen Adam or a Jesus Christ…

You need to be made perfect, there is still time! Adam ate the apple and broke the Law of God, becoming imperfect. But Jesus kept the Ten Commandments and this made him Perfect. As God, he loves the world so much that he shares his perfect record with all who will believe in him as their Lord and Savior. Jesus died on a Cross, was buried for three days but rose from the dead; you can’t keep a perfect man down! We are Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in Christ our Lord, without our trying to perfect ourselves. If we try to earn perfection, then Grace is no longer Grace. ~ Find a Church and start reading the Bible; Repent of your Sins and Confess Jesus as Lord. Though God sees the Church as Perfect because of his Perfect Son, we will not be perfected until he returns to Judge the world. He has left us his Perfect Holy Spirit and the Bible to help us along the Way…

Psalm 18:13 NIV; As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD's word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him.
 
@Guy Swenson @ReverendRV

Both @His clay and @Josheb are often absent from the forum for a period of time, I assume due to other duties and activities, but always do return, or have. So we may have to wait for their participation when they return and catch up. Perhaps in the counter to the covenant of works which I understand is coming. Hopefully others will join the conversation too. I am looking forward to it. Such a welcome breather from the same old thing.
I am good on waiting … If I can post a PDF for each challenge and then post the same content in sequential posts it may make it easier to read the whole argument and also reply to sections via forum posts. I can upload other file formats as well.

If I am good to go, then I can upload the first one pretty quickly - am at piano recital for 2 grandkids … they already played and did great.
 
I am good on waiting … If I can post a PDF for each challenge and then post the same content in sequential posts it may make it easier to read the whole argument and also reply to sections via forum posts. I can upload other file formats as well.

If I am good to go, then I can upload the first one pretty quickly - am at piano recital for 2 grandkids … they already played and did great.
That would work for me, to read the entirety on pdf to have it all straight, but also in subsequent posts so it is easier to respond to point by point.
 
Is this a forbidden thing or a technically not possible thing?
Personally I do not know. Sounds like @Eleanor does know. If it is not possible maybe a link to it can be posted?
 
Truthfully, I think the whole problem with the way in which the "experts" quoted worded it was because the entire thing is viewed strictly from a human starting point. Not God's.
Exactly right! An invalid starting point, as though there was substance to our silly POV
 
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