Covenant of Works

[Guy Swenson]

I don't reckon, it's just the way some Posters are...

Not going anywhere - just had a sermon to prepare. Let me wrap up what I gleaned from this and then I will post the next one. I think one at a time works better for me - otherwise I may be drinking from a fire hose.

 

[Guy Swenson]

You can't have it both ways. You are using "authorities" (a logical fallacy btw)upon which to base the COV.

Thanks - the Bible is the only authority, and perhaps a better term for what I am trying to grasp is who are credible “subject matter experts” who are able to clearly teach the doctrine. If you read my short bio, I am sola scriptura - absent a sound Biblical basis, the opinions of church fathers or “divines” carry no weight with me.

As I am completely on the outside looking in, it is helpful if there were summaries of the doctrine upon which people - Calvinists - agreed. In my research I saw varying viewpoints - these discussions help me identify some areas where Calvinists have unity and where they do not.

My challenges to the C.O.W. are entirely based on Scripture - I am beginning to see that some Calvinist’s may already agree with my understanding on probation. There is much more that I question.

Thank you all, again, for helping me to better understand the topic from each of your perspectives.

#3 is next. …

 

[ReverendRV]

Thanks - the Bible is the only authority, and perhaps a better term for what I am trying to grasp is who are credible “subject matter experts” who are able to clearly teach the doctrine. If you read my short bio, I am sola scriptura - absent a sound Biblical basis, the opinions of church fathers or “divines” carry no weight with me.

As I am completely on the outside looking in, it is helpful if there were summaries of the doctrine upon which people - Calvinists - agreed. In my research I saw varying viewpoints - these discussions help me identify some areas where Calvinists have unity and where they do not.

My challenges to the C.O.W. are entirely based on Scripture - I am beginning to see that some Calvinist’s may already agree with my understanding on probation. There is much more that I question.

Thank you all, again, for helping me to better understand the topic from each of your perspectives.

#3 is next. …

I suggest that you keep reminding people you are talking about Theology, which is a Biblical conclusion; not the Bible. Also, that your four conclusions are a Framework, not a complete teaching on the Covenant of Works...

 

[Guy Swenson]

C.O.W. Conclusion #3

Federal Headship: Adam was the “federal head” of humanity, and there were no limitations to the extent, reach and impact of that federal headship. Whatever Adam’s spiritual condition became, it would be imputed, imparted and inherited by all his “naturally generated” progeny or descendants.

• If Adam passed probation with personal, perfect, perpetual obedience, then the righteousness he merited by those works of perfect obedience and the eternal life he earned would permit his descendants to have eternal life imputed to them.
• If Adam failed and sinned, then every “naturally generated” (conceived by human insemination) descendant of Adam also participated in the actual sin of disobedience – eating the forbidden fruit – by Adam being the “federal representative” of all humanity – and is also guilty of that sin. Therefore, from conception, every person is judged, condemned and sentenced to an eternity of suffering in the fires of hell.
• The second Adam, Jesus, was perfectly obedient. ONLY by His works of personal, perfect, and perpetual obedience did Jesus earn righteousness, merit eternal life and is able to offer both righteousness and eternal life to those whom He chooses.
• Either Adam, or Jesus as the second Adam, is your federal head. Whether you have a condemnation or eternal life, imputed to you is determined by who your federal head is.

is this an accurate summary of the C.O.W. teaching on Federal Headship? What should be changed/added/deleted? (I can see some heartburn on use of “probation” …)

 

[ReverendRV]

C.O.W. Conclusion #3

Federal Headship: Adam was the “federal head” of humanity, and there were no limitations to the extent, reach and impact of that federal headship. Whatever Adam’s spiritual condition became, it would be imputed, imparted and inherited by all his “naturally generated” progeny or descendants.

• If Adam passed probation with personal, perfect, perpetual obedience, then the righteousness he merited by those works of perfect obedience and the eternal life he earned would permit his descendants to have eternal life imputed to them.
• If Adam failed and sinned, then every “naturally generated” (conceived by human insemination) descendant of Adam also participated in the actual sin of disobedience – eating the forbidden fruit – by Adam being the “federal representative” of all humanity – and is also guilty of that sin. Therefore, from conception, every person is judged, condemned and sentenced to an eternity of suffering in the fires of hell.
• The second Adam, Jesus, was perfectly obedient. ONLY by His works of personal, perfect, and perpetual obedience did Jesus earn righteousness, merit eternal life and is able to offer both righteousness and eternal life to those whom He chooses.
• Either Adam, or Jesus as the second Adam, is your federal head. Whether you have a condemnation or eternal life, imputed to you is determined by who your federal head is.

Again, this is very Good. About point 2; saying 'All are Judged' may be acceptable, but Adam alone was Judged. The teaching known as 'Real Participation' says we participated with Adam in the Fall, but this is different from our Representation by Adam as our Federal Head. Also, the Sentencing to Hell is not a part of the Fall. Condemnation is part of the Fall, but if anyone under the Old Covenant Kept it, that would be their Righteousness. If anyone under the Old Covenant Broke it, that would be their Curse (Deut 28); and this is when they would be Sentenced to Hell. The question arises; can we be Condemned and not be Sentenced? That's up to you to Study more about. But in America, we can be Convicted/Condemned in Court; and await the Judge to return for Sentencing...

Now, you may have found some Theologians who teach what you said in P2; but HERE you have found a mini-theologian whose given you more to think about...

Keep up the good work...

 

[Guy Swenson]

Again, this is very Good. About point 2; saying 'All are Judged' may be acceptable, but Adam alone was Judged. The teaching known as 'Real Participation' says we participated with Adam in the Fall, but this is different from our Representation by Adam as our Federal Head. Also, the Sentencing to Hell is not a part of the Fall. Condemnation is part of the Fall, but if anyone under the Old Covenant Kept it, that would be their Righteousness. If anyone under the Old Covenant Broke it, that would be their Curse (Deut 28); and this is when they would be Sentenced to Hell. The question arises; can we be Condemned and not be Sentenced? That's up to you to Study more about. But in America, we can be Convicted/Condemned in Court; and await the Judge to return for Sentencing...

Now, you may have found some Theologians who teach what you said in P2; but HERE you have found a mini-theologian whose given you more to think about...

Keep up the good work...

Thanks. I Googled ”real participation“ after our previous discussion, but did not find anything meaningful. Can you point me to a resource?

 

[ReverendRV]

Thanks. I Googled ”real participation“ after our previous discussion, but did not find anything meaningful. Can you point me to a resource?

At CARM Forums years ago, there was a fella named Ken Hammack (right Spelling?). He wrote a book on Real Participation and Paternal Traducianism, calling himself a Biblical Centrist; and Posted on CARM regularly. He used the Verse which said Levi paid Tithes while in Abraham's Loins, as a precedent to say everyone participated with Adam in the Fall...

In the Past, I could find Links to his book, but I'm having a hard time finding stuff on it...

 

[ReverendRV]

Thanks. I Googled ”real participation“ after our previous discussion, but did not find anything meaningful. Can you point me to a resource?

Just found one, I misspelled his name...

Who is Guilty of Adam’s Sin? A Centrist Response to Adam Harwood, Part 3 of 3 (by Ken Hamrick)

Dr. Harwood rightly advises, We don’t want to build a theological system on a single text. Also, we want to avoid eisegesis (reading our theological pre-commitments into the text). So, we’ll broade…

sbcvoices.com

 

[ReverendRV]

C.O.W. Conclusion #3

Federal Headship: Adam was the “federal head” of humanity, and there were no limitations to the extent, reach and impact of that federal headship. Whatever Adam’s spiritual condition became, it would be imputed, imparted and inherited by all his “naturally generated” progeny or descendants.

• If Adam passed probation with personal, perfect, perpetual obedience, then the righteousness he merited by those works of perfect obedience and the eternal life he earned would permit his descendants to have eternal life imputed to them.
• If Adam failed and sinned, then every “naturally generated” (conceived by human insemination) descendant of Adam also participated in the actual sin of disobedience – eating the forbidden fruit – by Adam being the “federal representative” of all humanity – and is also guilty of that sin. Therefore, from conception, every person is judged, condemned and sentenced to an eternity of suffering in the fires of hell.
• The second Adam, Jesus, was perfectly obedient. ONLY by His works of personal, perfect, and perpetual obedience did Jesus earn righteousness, merit eternal life and is able to offer both righteousness and eternal life to those whom He chooses.
• Either Adam, or Jesus as the second Adam, is your federal head. Whether you have a condemnation or eternal life, imputed to you is determined by who your federal head is.

is this an accurate summary of the C.O.W. teaching on Federal Headship? What should be changed/added/deleted? (I can see some heartburn on use of “probation” …)

Another thing to discuss will be the difference between Imputation and Impartation. @His clay @Josheb

 

[Guy Swenson]

Just found one, I misspelled his name...

Who is Guilty of Adam’s Sin? A Centrist Response to Adam Harwood, Part 3 of 3 (by Ken Hamrick)

Dr. Harwood rightly advises, We don’t want to build a theological system on a single text. Also, we want to avoid eisegesis (reading our theological pre-commitments into the text). So, we’ll broade…

sbcvoices.com

Thanks. I will read it.

 

[Guy Swenson]

The real fun begins when I post what I see the Bible teaching ...

 

[ReverendRV]

Thanks. I will read it.

The Moral of the Story is, the teaching of Real Participation is not the Teaching of Federal Headship's representation in the Covenant of Works...

 

[Guy Swenson]

Read all 3 of the critiques of Hammond. Is Hammond a Calvinist, or an SBC non-Calvinist?

It appears to me that there may be a fairly wide spectrum of beliefs among Calvinists - I suspect I will need to address my assertions to specific and particular variants, as some seem to agree with my Biblical perspective.

 

[ReverendRV]

Read all 3 of the critiques of Hammond. Is Hammond a Calvinist, or an SBC non-Calvinist?

It appears to me that there may be a fairly wide spectrum of beliefs among Calvinists - I suspect I will need to address my assertions to specific and particular variants, as some seem to agree with my Biblical perspective.

Stick to your four conclusions about the Covenant of Works, as a framework. I think earlier on, most agreed your first conclusion is the BASICS of the Covenant of Works...

Ken Hammrick called himself a Biblical Centrist, and sided mostly with Calvinism. I can't remember if he is Baptist.

 

[Guy Swenson]

Stick to your four conclusions about the Covenant of Works, as a framework. I think earlier on, most agreed your first conclusion is the BASICS of the Covenant of Works...

Ken Hammrick called himself a Biblical Centrist, and sided mostly with Calvinism. I can't remember if he is Baptist.

Thank you. When #3 is critiqued, I will send #4 for evaluation.

 

[ReverendRV]

Thank you. When #3 is critiqued, I will send #4 for evaluation.

I critiqued it

I gave a response on the Provisionism 101 Forum with the hastag #FinallyTalkingToTheRightCalvinist

 

[ReverendRV]

I critiqued it

I gave a response on the Provisionism 101 Forum with the hastag #FinallyTalkingToTheRightCalvinist

Eva, if his Aseity is true, Foreknowledge can't be true because God would rely on it to make Decisions. The Same goes for Open Theism; if God depends on us to Learn, he isn't Self Sufficient...

#FinallyTalkingToTheRightCalvinist

 

[Guy Swenson]

I critiqued it

I gave a response on the Provisionism 101 Forum with the hastag #FinallyTalkingToTheRightCalvinist

Saw it on the Soteriology 101 Facebook - same one you call Provisionism 101?

 

[Guy Swenson]

I would offer..

1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

We are not redeemed with corruptible, temporal things like the blood dying mankind.

The life of the flesh is in the blood but that life is spirit life not seen coming from God. Dust has no spirit life of its own.

Pagan tradition "out of sight out of mind" .No unseen God reigning in the hard hearts .

Blood as a metaphor like a lamb was the plan of God before he faithfully said "let there be " the testimony came 2000 years ago it remains good

In that way we walk by faith God's understanding .Yoked with him our burdens are lighter

1 Peter 1:19-20 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, the demonstration is over still having its efect in these last days

Thank you.

 

[ReverendRV]

Questions to ask during Interviewing a New Pastor...


First, ask him if he believes in Total Inability due to our Native Depravity Falling Short. Secondly, ask if he believes in God's Unmerited Favor in Election or our Merited Favor in Election. Thirdly, ask if he believes in Universal Propitiation and/or Limited Expiation. Fourth, ask him if he believes in Prevenient Grace or in Prevenient Faith. Fifth, ask him if he believes in our Synergistic Perseverance, or in God's Monergistic Once Saved Always Saved...

This will be the fastest way to find out if he is a Provisionist or a Calvinist...

#finallytalkingtotherightcalvinist