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Consistent Hermeneutics: Calvinism vs Arminianism

Are you trying to say that it is impossible for you to conceive of a person having belief in the Bible or Gospel yet they are not saved?
It is not possible for someone have true belief in who Jesus is and what He did and how and why He did it, as given in the scriptures, and not be saved. And that is something only God sees as it is in both their mind and heart, unless they articulate those beliefs.
Doesn't James say that the demon even believe? Do you think the demons are saved?
The demons are not offered salvation. Jesus did not die for demons. He died for humans. He came as a man in order to do so. The demons know who He is because they, being spiritual beings as God is spirit, no doubt saw Him preincarnate.
You say I need to use the Bible itself to somehow validate what I am saying, as if it is impossible for a person to use human reason to make a point. That is what I am understanding you to be saying here.
I simply mean don't just make stuff up or just say something unless the Bible will support it and you know how it does. For the benefit of all.
So, can a person have a nominal belief and not be saved, or not? Can a person be born into and raised a Christian and believe in the Christian religion and not be saved? Can a person be born into and raised a Christian who believes in Christianity and not get saved until later in their life? PLEASE answer these questions and do not resort to evasion or any other method of avoiding the plain meaning of what I just said but tackle what I just asked you and answer it plainly. Thank you
Where a person is born and how they are raised does not save. Can a person believe in the Christian religion and not be saved? What do you mean by believe in. Believe it is a good religion? The best religion? That it exists? Believing in a religion doesn't save. It is only believing in the person and work of Christ that saves. What is believing in this sense, faith as said in Eph 2? Trusting in His being the Son of God come as Son of man, and dying in our place on the cross to take away our sins and reconcile us to God, and nothing and no one else to have done this or to be able to do this.
 
The word consistent in the title is very important.

Hermeneutics is a method or principle of interpretation. So it must have an axiom, a starting point that does not waver in all that follows but remains consistent throughout the entire Bible. What does that need to be? Who is God, and as Jesus is God, who is Jesus. We can only obtain this information from God Himself. So we must establish from His word who He Himself says He is, who the Son is both pre-incarnate and as incarnate. Then we must establish all other interpretation and doctrine in a way that is consistent with this.

Does Calvinism do this? Does Arminianism do this?
Which kind of lead to the question why any Christian forum has a Calvinism VS Arminianism sub forum? Pointless & vain debate that brings about strife.

2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. 9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

No believer should be identified with either side of this issue in spite of the scripture plainly refuting Arminianism only because Calvinism has split from Tulip to 4 point Calvinism, if I recall correctly. So even the teachings of Calvinism needs correction at various points as it can be addressed by scripture and those stalwart " Calvinists" that are opposed will find themselves acting like Arminianism.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Rewriting this for today's application....

Who then is John Calvin, and who is Jacobus Arminius, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 John Calvin have planted, Jacobus Arminius watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Now of course, one would claim that Jacobus Arminius was a heretic unlike apollo and I can agree BUT was John Calvin without error? If John teaches 9 truths but teaches one lie, what does that make him? A heretic also.

Did not John Calvin believed it was okay to execute a heretic? Yes, even though he warned the person not to come to that city to see him to talk with him, but yet John did have him arrested and did not stay his execution.

But what Jesus say about executing a heretic?

John 16:1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

What did Jesus say about those in error or even teaching error?

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

When excommunicated from the assembly, and if that believer or even a former believer does not repent before his death or before the Bridegroom comes, he will not be part of the firstfruits of the resurrection at the pre great tribulation rapture event, but the Lord will finish His work in him to His glory as He shall lose none of all the Father has given Him.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

A lot of believers behave like Arminianism by not reading past verse 15 as if verse 16-17 does not apply which testifies to the physical death in what that believer shall lose their physical life in that day of fire, and not just the loss of rewards of crowns.

By His grace & by His help, we are to be identified as disciples of Jesus Christ in testifying of Him in seeking His glory & not of another. By His grace & by His help, we are to seek the other's good in the Lord in helping them to also obtain that "eternal glory" that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus in being that "vessel unto honor" in His House as received by Him when He comes as the Bridegroom rather than be left behind for some unrepentant iniquity for why and how they become vessels of dishonor in His House.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

That is the call for every believer to look to Jesus Christ to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily for the high prize of our calling. This race is never done until our confidence in Him has Him finish it to His glory by bringing us Home with His crowning achievements on us.
 
You continue to confuse the particular grace that brings salvation that we see in Eph 2, with the graces that are distributed in our time of need as His children. We have to become His children first. If you would have paid attention to the post in which I went over this, you would not be asserting the same thing that you did which prompted by explanation. Post #85. This is what becomes so frustrating when people do not read, hear, or pay attention to, or respond to the content, of the posts of the person they are in conversation with. They keep saying the same things over and over and asking us to explain, or refute the same thing over and over. Could you please pay attention to what is said to you and refute it if you disagree, on the spot by quoting it; first in your own words, then give your scriptural support with your exegesis of the scriptures. If you don't start doing that I will simply stop reading and replying, since you come at it as though it were a game of intellectualism.

Is it something we deserve? Or something God gives in His grace?

And?

Off topic so I won't respond.
Post # 85 begins with an assumption and conclusion that is not correct...

Here is what you said:

This would be an example of grace and the graces in grace: Eph 1:3-14​
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[d] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[e] to the praise of his glory.


That is not about unmerited favor, but about the praise that will take place in a believer after being made able to comprehend (by grace) that we are saved.

Eph 1:3-14 is about God's sovereign choice. And, the spiritual mechanics used for those whom He predestined. He predestined only certain souls that He chose IN HIM to make up the body of Christ, his Church.

We will praise His glorious grace when we find ourselves saved and understanding (by grace) that we are saved!

6~~resulting in recognition/praise of the glory from the source of His grace from which He {God the Father}
has pursued us with grace in the One having been loved {Jesus Christ} . . .


God must pursue us with His grace. Because if grace were not administered? We would remain powerless to believe!
For without the power of grace our flesh would forever make our soul contrary to the Spirit!
Grace must empower our soul by neutralizing our depraved flesh in order for us to be able to choose for salvation!


For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh,
for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. " Galatians 5:17​

Without grace administered the still unregenerate soul, that soul would remain enslaved to the flesh could never believe!

Grace is God's enabling power given to the weak to overcome what would otherwise make their salvation impossible.
That impossibility being? The depravity of the flesh that normally dominates over the soul.

One more time, please......

No where does Paul say that grace is "unmerited favor."
Paul said grace was God's enabling power working in his life.

Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, “My grace
is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. Therefore I will boast all
the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. " 2 Corinthians 12:8-9​

How is that unmerited favor? Its enabling power. Power from God!

Its God's supernatural provision to become empowered for all who are too weak to do His will.

And, this one...

For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because
I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me
was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of
God that was with me." 1 Corinthians 15:9-10​

No where did Paul say that grace is "unmerited favor."

God's favor is His blessings that we receive.

Grace and peace ..................
 
People like @GeneZ want to change the definition of Biblical and Theological words; once these are changed, they're pov is right and we're wrong. This is why we can say Saint Paul's weakness didn't Merit God's Grace; by definition, nothing can...

It was God who wanted Paul to fulfill the purpose God called Paul into. Yet, Paul in his natural strength could not do it.
That is why Paul's weaknesses and helplessness REQUIRED God's giving grace in order for God to see Paul fulfill God's desire.

As far as merit is involved? It was the humility of Paul that merited receiving that grace. For God does not give grace to the proud believer.

But He gives greater grace. Therefore He says:
God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble."
James 4:6​
 
It was God who wanted Paul to fulfill the purpose God called Paul into. Yet, Paul in his natural strength could not do it.
That is why Paul's weaknesses and helplessness REQUIRED God's giving grace in order for God to see Paul fulfill God's desire.

As far as merit is involved? It was the humility of Paul that merited receiving that grace. For God does not give grace to the proud believer.

But He gives greater grace. Therefore He says:
God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble."
James 4:6​
God GIVES Grace to the Humble; this Gift is Unmerited. You are making a connection between Grace and Humility which promotes Merited Favor; dismissing the tried and true definition of Grace...

In your earlier Post, you spoke of thinking outside the box of the definition for Grace; do you still want to do that?
 
God GIVES Grace to the Humble; this Gift is Unmerited. You are making a connection between Grace and Humility which promotes Merited Favor; dismissing the tried and true definition of Grace...

In your earlier Post, you spoke of thinking outside the box of the established definition for Grace; do you still want to do that?

Your definition of grace does not have to agree with what I believe.
Nor, does my definition have to agree with you.
Its true meaning remains.

Why argue now? For when we stand before the Lord it will be made clear.

In the mean while?

There must be differences between believers .... 1 Corinthians 11:19.

That is... There must be differences, if we do in fact have free will to believe what we want to.


grace and peace .............
 
That is not about unmerited favor, but about the praise that will take place in a believer after being made able to comprehend (by grace) that we are saved.
You are still focused on man. And if that is not an example of grace, unmerited favor, then do any merit God doing that for us? Try reading the Bible without yourself as the center of everything.
Grace must empower our soul by neutralizing our depraved flesh in order for us to be able to choose for salvation!

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Verses 3 and 4 What God has blessed His people with. Every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places. Made us holy and blameless before Him.
GRACE.
5, 6,7,8,9,10 predestined us for adopting to Himself through the Son. A praise to His glorious grace, blessed us in the Beloved. (Not our glory, Not our praise to Him. Praise to His glorious grace.. Gave us redemption through His blood, forgiveness of our sins, according to His grace. He lavished us with that grace. Giving us wisdom and insight to know the mystery of His will. Uniting all things in Him.
GRACE
Grace must empower our soul by neutralizing our depraved flesh in order for us to be able to choose for salvation!
You still have not shown me where the Bible says anything of the sort.
Without grace administered the still unregenerate soul, that soul would remain enslaved to the flesh could never believe!
It is by grace that He gives faith to believe. Faith saves.
One more time, please......

No where does Paul say that grace is "unmerited favor."
Paul said grace was God's enabling power working in his life.

Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. " 2 Corinthians 12:8-9
How is that unmerited favor? Its enabling power. Power from God!
Grace is what it is. It is God who said His grace was sufficient. Where is grace ever give the definition of enabling power?
And, this one...

For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me." 1 Corinthians 15:9-10
No where did Paul say that grace is "unmerited favor."
Did not Paul say right there that he did not deserve to be called an apostle? And who was it that appointed him an apostle? And what did he say about that grace----and he refers here back to the road to Damascus for that is when it happened---that grace was not without effect. Grace does not cause us to work, it is grace working in us.
God's favor is His blessings that we receive.
No, it is His grace that gives them.
 
You are still focused on man. And if that is not an example of grace, unmerited favor, then do any merit God doing that for us? Try reading the Bible without yourself as the center of everything.



Have a nice Day.
 
It is not possible for someone have true belief in who Jesus is and what He did and how and why He did it, as given in the scriptures, and not be saved.
Thank you for agreeing with me then. "true belief", as you put it.
 
Have a nice Day.
Grace is not a power. Grace is a characteristic of God. All that the believer has, including the faith that unites them in Christ as His children, and all that God does in them and for them is because of His covenant grace towards them. None of it is earned or merited. None of it is from or in and of themselves. All of it is a gift and He is the source, purely grace. And why does He extend this grace to His children?

Romans 8:26-30 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words, And He who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those who He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.

Eph 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him.


He does this for His glory and the glory of the Son, and that the Son may have many brethren conformed to His image. It is a covenant relationship, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, children. And it is all because of His grace that He saves and that He equips, holds up, preserves, teaches, strengthens, provides, protects, sanctifies, forgives, gives wisdom and understanding, even grace that He gives us His Word, and in it reveals HImself to us. Grace that He sends the Son, grace that the Son comes and does the necessary work for redemption, grace that He ordains particular people to give to the Son, grace that Jesus died for them, grace that He uses those He redeems to gather the flock through the preaching of the gospel, grace that we do so. Not even the believer deserves any of this. For what have they done that warrants such blessing?

They accepted the gift of grace that was offered you might say, and chose Christ. Ahh but then what has happened by making that one simple assertion. Grace has been wiped out of the picture.

So you see, man can offer God nothing that He needs. It is God and Christ having grace towards His children. God and Christ first and only, in grace reaching down to man. It is not man reaching up to God and satisfying a need of the Most High, the Lord of Hosts, the Ancient of Days, the Almighty. And it is not man being on equal or superior footing with God. He is forever Creator and we are forever His creation.



 
That's fine. Remember, it is curiosity. I hope this is because you find the question interesting. I have a way of thinking that isn't something set in stone, other than, God is not us, and we are not God. I am interested in how you look at this, basically when considering God's sovereignty next to who we are. In my comment, just asking if this comes to mind when you see some of the comments non-calvinists make.
I'll be working on this question today. Even if incomplete (and it grates against my perfectionistic tendencies), I will (Lord willing) post some time today after this post. I will @ you, so that you see it. I'll start a new thread.
 
Grace is not a power. Grace is a characteristic of God.

But... It is written.

2 Corinthians 12:9


But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.

Just to let you know. I do not take you personally. For you are not fighting against me.

Its ENABLING POWER from God!

You want to change it to mean "unmerited favor?"

Go ahead..

But I will stick with what is accurate from the Greek.



"My grace produces contentment/sufficiency {arkeo} for you" . . .for 'the power
[of God]' {dunamis} is fulfilled by means of helplessness/weakness."

Its right there. But, I am your enemy for saying it.

In Christ.....
 
Grace = enabling power from God.

Acts 4:33​
With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.
And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all. "

It comes with no surprise. We find ourselves in error from time to time.
For we are in spiritual warfare.

In warfare, misinformation is a tool that weakens ones opponent.

Stick with the Word in the original languages.. except when we are dealing with idiomatic speech.
 
But... It is written.

2 Corinthians 12:9​
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.

Just to let you know. I do not take you personally. For you are not fighting against me.

Its ENABLING POWER from God!

You want to change it to mean "unmerited favor?"

Go ahead..

But I will stick with what is accurate from the Greek.



"My grace produces contentment/sufficiency {arkeo} for you" . . .for 'the power
[of God]' {dunamis} is fulfilled by means of helplessness/weakness."

Its right there. But, I am your enemy for saying it.

In Christ.....
If you are going to stick with what the Greek says, don't use the wrong Greek word in order to pretend the passage means grace is power. :ROFLMAO:

Grace
Greek charis
Definition: grace, kindness
Usage: a. grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ, b.. favor, c. gratitude, thanks, d. a favor kindness.

God gives enabling power purely because of His grace. It is not the grace that is the power. And no one deserves His grace, otherwise by definition it would be reward and not grace.

Why is it so important to you to deny what I said about grace in post #130. Why do you need it to be something else besides what it is? Is there something in it for you besides feeling that you won, by never ceding any ground, no matter how foolish and stubborn you look in the process. Is your motto "win at all costs" even at the expense of denying truth? It shouldn't be about winning. And it is not with me. Winning and losing does not even enter the picture frame. But I will not compromise with truth but contend for it, and as long as you keep putting forth unbiblical and refutable claims, I will continue to refute them with what is biblical. And I can do that by the grace of God and for His glory, because I make sure something is supportable by the whole counsel of God before I ever begin refuting something.

You have not done that with one single thing that anyone else has said in this thread, or even tried to. You seem to know that you can't or at least have no idea how to do it. And I know that you can't. You cannot make the Bible go against itself, try as you might. That is why in C vs A debates isolated scriptures are used by A's, why there is no exegesis, no logical hermeneutics, or any consistency. Why they always degrade into deflecting, and/or insult. And why they never, ever, actually deal head on with what the C puts forth. The assertions in the OP stand. You have illustrated it quite well.
 
Grace = enabling power from God.

Acts 4:33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all.
That is what grace gives. Grace is not the power. God is the power. But hunting through different translation until you can find one that works for your mistake is not exegesis. The only translation I found (and I did not look at the all but quite a few) that translate that passage as you have given above is the NIV and even then you put a period where there was a comma, for the sentence continues "------at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them."

Here are a few other translations:


New Living Translation
The apostles testified powerfully to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and God’s great blessing was upon them all.

English Standard Version
And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all.

Berean Standard Bible
With great power the apostles continued to give their testimony about the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And abundant grace was upon them all.

Berean Literal Bible
And with great power, the apostles were giving testimony of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.

King James Bible
And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

New King James Version
And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

New American Standard Bible
And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.

NASB 1995
And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.

NASB 1977
And with great power the apostles were giving witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.
 
If you are going to stick with what the Greek says, don't use the wrong Greek word in order to pretend the passage means grace is power. :ROFLMAO:

Grace
Greek charis
Definition: grace, kindness
Usage: a. grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ, b.. favor, c. gratitude, thanks, d. a favor kindness.

Besides going off topic?

Where do we find charis in the verses I cited concerning God giving Paul power to overcome his weaknesses?



2 Corinthians 12:9


But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power
may rest on me.
"


"My grace produces contentment/sufficiency {arkeo} for you" . . .for 'the power
[of God]' {dunamis} is fulfilled by means of helplessness/weakness."

OK then...

Let's see if you are right.
I am not afraid of being corrected.

As we know, Grace is a gift. But grace does not mean gift. Charis does, and is translated as such when its written.
I say...
Grace?
That gift of power is God's enabling power initially needed to be saved.

You say grace only means a gift.
But, that's what charis means, not dunamis.

Gifts are functions granted by God.
But not the power needed to implement the gift.
The humble with a spiritual gift will be operative only by the filling of the Spirit. = power.

Paul was saying the power that made him what he was grace, not a gift.

It does not say...


But he said to me, “My gift is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power
may rest on me. "

It does not say that. The gift of God to Paul was to be an apostle.

Selah....
 
God gives enabling power purely because of His grace. It is not the grace that is the power. And no one deserves His grace, otherwise by definition it would be reward and not grace.

God gives grace because of His justice having been satisfied.

If a believer is religious, closed minded, and proud?
God's justice will deny giving grace to that arrogant believer.

"But he gives more grace.
Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”


James 4:6 !​

God does not say He give "more" gifts when one is humble before God's Word.
He gives more power (grace) for benefiting their gift's operation.


Over time and with growth God can trust a humble believer to be given more enabling power!
For he can be trusted with the responsibility that comes with having more power.


For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required;
and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more."


Luke 12:48b​


On the other hand?

Some have the 'charis' (gift) of sidestepping a topic they wish to avoid, by diverting down a path away from the real issue.


life goes on....
 
Where do we find charis in the verses I cited concerning God giving Paul power to overcome his weaknesses?



2 Corinthians 12:9


But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power
may rest on me.
"


2532 [e]καὶ
kai
AndConj
2046 [e]εἴρηκέν
eirēken
He saidV-RIA-3S
1473 [e]μοι
moi
to me,PPro-D1S
714 [e]Ἀρκεῖ
Arkei
SufficesV-PIA-3S
4771 [e]σοι
soi
youPPro-D2S
3588 [e]
theArt-NFS
5485 [e]χάρις
charis
graceN-NFS
1473 [e]μου·
mou
of Me;


 
2532 [e]καὶ
kai
AndConj
2046 [e]εἴρηκέν
eirēken
He saidV-RIA-3S
1473 [e]μοι
moi
to me,PPro-D1S
714 [e]Ἀρκεῖ
Arkei
SufficesV-PIA-3S
4771 [e]σοι
soi
youPPro-D2S
3588 [e]
theArt-NFS
5485 [e]χάρις
charis
graceN-NFS
1473 [e]μου·
mou
of Me;

No link?

Why did you stop there?

https://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/12-9.htm

3588 [e]
theArt-NFS
1063 [e]γὰρ
gar
forConj
1411 [e]δύναμις
dynamis
powerN-NFS
1722 [e]ἐν
en
inPrep
769 [e]ἀσθενείᾳ
astheneia
weaknessN-DFS
5055 [e]τελεῖται.
teleitai
is perfected.V-PIM/P-3S
2236 [e]Ἥδιστα
Hēdista
Most gladlyAdv-S
3767 [e]οὖν
oun
thereforeConj
3123 [e]μᾶλλον
mallon
ratherAdv
2744 [e]καυχήσομαι
kauchēsomai
will I boastV-FIM-1S
1722 [e]ἐν
en
inPrep
3588 [e]ταῖς
tais
theArt-DFP
769 [e]ἀσθενείαις,
astheneiais
weaknessesN-DFP
1473 [e]‹μου›
mou
of me,PPro-G1S
2443 [e]ἵνα
hina
so thatConj
1981 [e]ἐπισκηνώσῃ
episkēnōsē
may restV-ASA-3S
1909 [e]ἐπ’
ep’
uponPrep
1473 [e]ἐμὲ
eme
mePPro-A1S
3588 [e]
theArt-NFS
1411 [e]δύναμις
dynamis
powerN-NFS
3588 [e]τοῦ
tou
-Art-GMS
5547 [e]Χριστοῦ.
Christou
of Christ.N-GMS

Context must dictate a word's meaning.

Why did you stop short? For the gift was power!
 
Last edited:
2532 [e]καὶ
kai
AndConj
2046 [e]εἴρηκέν
eirēken
He saidV-RIA-3S
1473 [e]μοι
moi
to me,PPro-D1S
714 [e]Ἀρκεῖ
Arkei
SufficesV-PIA-3S
4771 [e]σοι
soi
youPPro-D2S
3588 [e]
theArt-NFS
5485 [e]χάρις
charis
graceN-NFS
1473 [e]μου·
mou
of Me;


Please, name one "charis" given of God that does not require supernatural power to be operational.

God gave gifts to many.
But if they are carnal?
Their gifts produce only wood hay and stubble.

They are dead to God's power, but not to the power of their emotions.

Discernment is also a gift that the power granted from God.
Power of the Spirit will make it operational...

That is why we are to "walk in the Spirit" to please God.
Emotional determination based upon knowledge without the filling of the Spirit is religion.

Religion is what divides the body of Christ....

Many know the Word, but they do not "know" the Word.

Religion knows the word... Grace blessed with the power to have the Word know you as One. .
 
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