Consistent Hermeneutics: Calvinism vs Arminianism

[Carbon]

Why is this such a perpetual problem for Calvinists?
Its because of what you have been inculcated with.

You have been told and are under the impression that man can not choose for God.
That is true for all men without God's enabling grace.

Grace removes the old barrier that made that so.
Its your soul that chooses.
That is why God saves the soul, but not the body!

 

[GeneZ]

It takes time.

First step is to not close one's mind.

grace and peace ..................

 

[Arial]

Are you implying that I am saying we are not saved by grace?
Without grace no one could be saved. For our sin natures would be preventing it.

I am not implying anything. I am explaining the grace that saves to you because you say it is not so. You claim that the grace in Eph 2 is offered, not given. Do what I did and show me from scripture that what I SAID is not true. Pick it apart step by step and show me where I am wrong and what is correct---step by step. I am not in the habit of taking someone's word for it, and you shouldn't expect people to just take your word as truth.

The word "works" at that time was a religious system devised by man, for man to fulfill as to gain the approbation of God.
The Pharisees were insanely works oriented. They kept on inventing things for followers to do as a means to inherit eternal life.
That is why it was needed to say we are not saved by "works."

It was needed to say because it is true. Gentiles weren't doing these works you refer to even when Paul wrote to them the things that he did. Nearly always if not always he had a mixed audience. And if he meant what you say he meant that passage would have no relevance to any Gentile ever. But what does he say? That no one should boast. And here you are boasting, though you will never call it that, and blind your eyes to seeing it, stop up your ears to hearing it. Not to mention if one's salvation depends on something that they do----choose ----it is now no longer grace. Paul says that too. And what of what I SAID? That it says faith is a gift given by God, and if God gives faith then it is faith He gives, and faith they have. I dare you to deal with that.

 

[Arial]

They, being fallen, are all under compulsion to reject God. They can not choose.

And yet you say that being falled and unable to not choose to reject Christ, they CAN choose to not reject Him. An impossible dream. It defies logic. It is a mind disengaged from reason.

 

[Arial]

Grace removes the old barrier that made that so.
Its your soul that chooses.
That is why God saves the soul, but not the body!

WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY ANY OF THAT??? WHERE? WHERE? WHERE? Try and have a cognizant conversation without relying on your own musings as your only defense. You are not the forum guru. Support what you say. Only the gullible and uninformed, and uncaring, will just believe it.

And I have additional news for you. God is also going to raise the bodies of believers to be with Him in the new heaven and the new earth. 2 Cor 4:13-14 Since we have the same spirit of faith according to what has been written, "I believed, and so I spoke," we also believe, and so we speak, knowing that He who raised the lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into His presence.

1 Cor 15:52b-54 For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall all be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall it come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.

So your idea of soul and body need a serious rethinking also.

 

[GeneZ]

I am not implying anything. I am explaining the grace that saves to you because you say it is not so. You claim that the grace in Eph 2 is offered, not given.

Grace does not save as if grace forces one to believe. That if God gives grace its inevitable one will be saved.

Romans 1:18-20 shows how some were being drawn by God (by grace), and then thoroughly rejected
what God also gave to be saved with (faith) while being given the grace to see it.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, ​

who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, ​

because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities​

—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been ​

made, so that people are without excuse." Romans 1:18-20​

Grace made those men to know what they needed to know to be saved. They received full knowledge of the message God
was giving them to draw them into salvation....

In that case? God in his omniscience could only offer the grace, which they refused after God gave it.

Before one can give mercy one must offer mercy. You can not give mercy to those who hate you after you offer it.


In Christ....

 

[GeneZ]

WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY ANY OF THAT??? WHERE? WHERE? WHERE? Try and have a cognizant conversation without relying on your own musings as your only defense. You are not the forum guru. Support what you say. Only the gullible and uninformed, and uncaring, will just believe it.

God saved our souls destined for a "new body."

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; ​

and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved ​

me and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20​

We will receive a new type of body! We now have a body from the dust of the earth that God declares as crucified.

​

The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven." 1 Corinthians 15:47​

Our Resurrection body will be like His glorious, heavenly body!

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, ​

who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to ​

the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself." Philippians 3:20-21​

Our resurrection body of heaven will not be consisting of what we know down here at present!

Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another ​

and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the ​

splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.​

1 Corinthians 15:39-40​

Our resurrection body can not remain being from the dust of the earth. This earth that is doomed to perish!

​

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? ​

You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed ​

its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements ​

will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven ​

and a new earth, where righteousness dwells." 2 Peter 3:11-13​

That is why we are told to no longer know the Lord according the flesh!

Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. ​

Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet ​

now we know Him thus no longer." 2 Corinthians 5:16​

That demands we stop seeing the Lord as He had to become when he lower Himself into being on earth in order to die in our place.

grace and peace ..........................

 

[Arial]

Grace does not save as if grace forces one to believe. That if God gives grace its inevitable one will be saved.

"By grace you are saved" is how that sentence begins. That does not mean it is a force and I am not saying it is. Whose grace is it? God's. What is grace? Favor that is in no way earned or deserved. Why then are any saved? Favor of God.

He has grace, He gives what? Faith. How are we saved? Through faith. What did He give one more time? Faith. One more time. What is it that God in His grace gives? Faith. How are we saved? BY His grace, through faith, and that is a gift of God. What is the first cause of what? God and our salvation.

Romans 1:18-20 shows how some were being drawn by God (by grace), and then thoroughly rejected
what God also gave to be saved with (faith) while being given the grace to see it.



The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." Romans 1:18-20
Grace made those men to know what they needed to know to be saved. They received full knowledge of the message God
was giving them to draw them into salvation....

God's existence, His power and perfection, supremacy, glory, all can be seen in creation. That is why no man as an excuse for sinning. He can't claim he didn't even know he has a creator or know right from wrong. Christ is not seen in the creation.

This was penned to show man's condition since the fall. Not the way of salvation. What you have proposed amounts to salvation by works, not Christ. It was not grace that makes us see God's existence in nature, it is our eyes. God was not giving us (you keep saying them---who do you think this them is)the knowledge of Christ in His creation. You have given an example of grace and tried to prove resistible grace with a passage having nothing to do with grace.

In that case? God in his omniscience could only offer the grace, which they refused after God gave it.

Romans 1:18-20 isn't even about grace.

Before one can give mercy one must offer mercy. You can not give mercy to those who hate you after you offer it.

Illogical. Not only is it illogical and untrue God says "I will have mercy on who I have mercy, and I will have compassion on who I have compassion." Is there anything in that statement of His that indicates He is offering mercy instead of giving it? Anything that indicates He consults with the clay on the matter?

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Nobody is forced to believe. God grants us true saving belief or faith that enables us, not against our will, to actually believe. Otherwise, nobody would be saved, since people can have nominal belief that is not actually saving faith. A person can believe and not be saved.

 

[Arial]

Nobody is forced to believe. God grants us true saving belief or faith that enables us, not against our will, to actually believe. Otherwise, nobody would be saved, since people can have nominal belief that is not actually saving faith. A person can believe and not be saved.

It is a very confusing and therefore dangerous thing to say that a person can believe and not be saved when the Bible says "believe and you will be saved." You would need to expand and make perfectly clear what you mean when you say that. With the Bible. Simply saying nominal belief will not cut it.

 

[Arial]

God saved our souls destined for a "new body."

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; ​

and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved ​

me and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20​

We will receive a new type of body! We now have a body from the dust of the earth that God declares as crucified.

​

The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven." 1 Corinthians 15:47​

Our Resurrection body will be like His glorious, heavenly body!

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, ​

who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to ​

the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself." Philippians 3:20-21​

Our resurrection body of heaven will not be consisting of what we know down here at present!

Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another ​

and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the ​

splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.​

1 Corinthians 15:39-40​

Our resurrection body can not remain being from the dust of the earth. This earth that is doomed to perish!

​

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? ​

You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed ​

its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements ​

will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven ​

and a new earth, where righteousness dwells." 2 Peter 3:11-13​

That is why we are told to no longer know the Lord according the flesh!

Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. ​

Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet ​

now we know Him thus no longer." 2 Corinthians 5:16​

That demands we stop seeing the Lord as He had to become when he lower Himself into being on earth in order to die in our place.

grace and peace ..........................

Here is what you said:

Grace removes the old barrier that made that so.
Its your soul that chooses.
That is why God saves the soul, but not the body!

Here is what I asked:

WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY ANY OF THAT??? WHERE? WHERE? WHERE?

The first quote is how you did not answer the question. Want to try again?

 

[GeneZ]

"By grace you are saved" is how that sentence begins. That does not mean it is a force and I am not saying it is. Whose grace is it? God's. What is grace? Favor that is in no way earned or deserved. Why then are any saved? Favor of God.

Please... Let's stop right here for a moment, and determine if that commonly accepted definition of grace fits
with what Paul said grace was doing in his life.

​

​

Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, “My grace ​

is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all ​

the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. " 2 Corinthians 12:8-9​

How is that unmerited favor? Its enabling power. Power from God!

Its God's supernatural provision to become empowered for all who are too weak to do His will.

And, this one...

​

For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because ​

I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me ​

was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of ​

God that was with me." 1 Corinthians 15:9-10​

Is that is unmerited "favor?" I would like to be shown why that is the case.
What grace produced in Paul's life actually merited God's favor!

I have learned to see grace as God's supernatural enabling power which is granted to humble believers, enabling them to fulfill God's assignment for their lives. .

Grace is real imparted power. Power that is invisible and needed to enable believers to make them able to function properly as God requires of them in His plan for their life.

And? Its merited!

For God only gives grace to the humble! One must make himself humble to receive grace!

​

Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive ​

to one another, and be clothed with humility, for​

​

“God resists the proud,​

But gives grace to the humble.”​

​

Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, ​

that He may exalt you in due time." 1 Peter 5:5-6​

God only sees those who humble themselves as meriting grace! They must humble themselves (volition) to merit grace!

We get handed too many misleading buzz words in Christianity.
People accept them because it makes them feel good inside when they hear them.
Grace is not unmerited favor.
For one would not have to choose to humble them selves if that were the case!
For the proud do not merit God's favor!

Again...

“God resists the proud,​

But gives grace to the humble.”​

​

Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time."​

Ironically, it is the proud who do not merit favor from God!
Therefore, it would have to be the proud who would be receiving unmerited favor...

Lot's of "stuff" Christians say and accept does not make sense Biblically.
That happens because too many are passive and just want to get along with those whom we find ourselves approving of.

Its why we find so many denominations that divide the body of Christ...
Mutual admiration societies formed around mutual approval.

grace and peace......

 

[Arial]

Please... Let's stop right here for a moment, and determine if that commonly accepted definition of grace fits
with what Paul said grace was doing in his life.
Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. " 2 Corinthians 12:8-9
How is that unmerited favor? Its enabling power. Power from God!

You continue to confuse the particular grace that brings salvation that we see in Eph 2, with the graces that are distributed in our time of need as His children. We have to become His children first. If you would have paid attention to the post in which I went over this, you would not be asserting the same thing that you did which prompted by explanation. Post #85. This is what becomes so frustrating when people do not read, hear, or pay attention to, or respond to the content, of the posts of the person they are in conversation with. They keep saying the same things over and over and asking us to explain, or refute the same thing over and over. Could you please pay attention to what is said to you and refute it if you disagree, on the spot by quoting it; first in your own words, then give your scriptural support with your exegesis of the scriptures. If you don't start doing that I will simply stop reading and replying, since you come at it as though it were a game of intellectualism.

How is that unmerited favor? Its enabling power. Power from God!

Its God's supernatural provision to become empowered for all who are too weak to do His will.

Is it something we deserve? Or something God gives in His grace?

Again...

“God resists the proud,But gives grace to the humble.”Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time."

Ironically, it is the proud who do not merit favor from God!
Therefore, it would have to be the proud who would be receiving unmerited favor...

And?

Lot's of "stuff" Christians say and accept does not make sense Biblically.
That happens because too many are passive and just want to get along with those whom we find ourselves approving of.

Its why we find so many denominations that divide the body of Christ...
Mutual admiration societies formed around mutual approval.

Off topic so I won't respond.

 

[ReverendRV]

Saving Grace is Unmerited Favor. Where Sin abounds Grace abounds the more; this is Unmerited Favor. Saint Paul's weakness didn't Merit God’s Favor...

 

[Arial]

Saving Grace is Unmerited Favor. Where Sin abounds Grace abounds the more; this is Unmerited Favor. Saint Paul's weakness didn't Merit God’s Favor...

I would venture to say that the passage in 2 Cor 12:8-9 is pointing out something even deeper. It is unmerited, but more than that, Paul did not overcome whatever it was. God did not take it from him.

Paul had just recounted an incredible experience in which he was caught up to paradise and heard things that cannot be told, or even uttered. 7. So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness."

That used to puzzle me because it almost sounds like we have to be weak in order for His power to be perfect. But that is not what it is saying. His power at work in a person is fully known when it holds one up when they cannot stand on their own. It does not require that whatever it is be taken away. It only requires that by His grace it cannot destroy us. When we are weak, it is His power that is sufficient.

 

[ReverendRV]

I would venture to say that the passage in 2 Cor 12:8-9 is pointing out something even deeper. It is unmerited, but more than that, Paul did not overcome whatever it was. God did not take it from him.

Paul had just recounted an incredible experience in which he was caught up to paradise and heard things that cannot be told, or even uttered. 7. So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness."

That used to puzzle me because it almost sounds like we have to be weak in order for His power to be perfect. But that is not what it is saying. His power at work in a person is fully known when it holds one up when they cannot stand on their own. It does not require that whatever it is be taken away. It only requires that by His grace it cannot destroy us. When we are weak, it is His power that is sufficient.

People like @GeneZ want to change the definition of Biblical and Theological words; once these are changed, they're pov is right and we're wrong. This is why we can say Saint Paul's weakness didn't Merit God's Grace; by definition, nothing can...

His Post was about changing the nature of God's Grace to suit himself...

So let's not let him do it...

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

It is a very confusing and therefore dangerous thing to say that a person can believe and not be saved when the Bible says "believe and you will be saved." You would need to expand and make perfectly clear what you mean when you say that. With the Bible. Simply saying nominal belief will not cut it.

Are you trying to say that it is impossible for you to conceive of a person having belief in the Bible or Gospel yet they are not saved? Doesn't James say that the demon even believe? Do you think the demons are saved? I've said this repeatedly on this forum before and nobody came back with any valid response. You say I need to use the Bible itself to somehow validate what I am saying, as if it is impossible for a person to use human reason to make a point. That is what I am understanding you to be saying here.

So, can a person have a nominal belief and not be saved, or not? Can a person be born into and raised a Christian and believe in the Christian religion and not be saved? Can a person be born into and raised a Christian who believes in Christianity and not get saved until later in their life? PLEASE answer these questions and do not resort to evasion or any other method of avoiding the plain meaning of what I just said but tackle what I just asked you and answer it plainly. Thank you

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

It is a very confusing and therefore dangerous thing to say that a person can believe and not be saved when the Bible says "believe and you will be saved." You would need to expand and make perfectly clear what you mean when you say that. With the Bible. Simply saying nominal belief will not cut it.

What is your understanding of the word "nominal"? Clear that up first, and then we can see if you misunderstood what I said. And then go ahead and tackle everything I wrote and tell me which parts you disagree with.

 

[ReverendRV]

What is your understanding of the word "nominal"? Clear that up first, and then we can see if you misunderstood what I said. And then go ahead and tackle everything I wrote and tell me which parts you disagree with.

Is Nominal Faith the size of a Mustard Seed? No, a Mustard Seed sized Faith is Total Faith...

So she means to say that Nominal Faith falls short of the Mustard Seed Faith. How? Nominal Faith would have more in common with the belief the demons had in Jesus. There are Notitia, Assensus and Fiducia beliefs; only one of them is true Faith. The others fall short, and are Nominal...

Christians have them all; Which of these three describe the belief of demons?

 

[Arial]

What is your understanding of the word "nominal"? Clear that up first, and then we can see if you misunderstood what I said. And then go ahead and tackle everything I wrote and tell me which parts you disagree with.

It is not on me to define what I think nominal means. I am not the one who used the word. Tell me what you mean by nominal and how someone can believe and not be saved, and then I will have something to agree or disagree with.