Consistent Hermeneutics: Calvinism vs Arminianism

[Arial]

As we know, Grace is a gift. But grace does not mean gift. Charis does, and is translated as such when its written.
I say...
Grace?
That gift of power is God's enabling power initially needed to be saved.

I never said grace did mean gift. I said it was a gift. Are you gathering your straw men back up?
Charisefinition: grace, kindness
Usage: (a) grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ, (b) favor, (c) gratitude, thanks, (d) a favor, kindness.
By grace you are saved-----(nothing merited salvation. Not one's deeds, or actions or choices. )through faith (Trust in Christ) and that is not of yourself (no choice, no work, no nothing of yourself) but it is a gift of God ( the gift is not enabling power it is faith) and why one might ask and why does Paul tell us this? that no one can boast. So saying it is of yourself, your choice, is boasting. God wants us to know salvation is all of Him---His grace.

You say grace only means a gift.
But, that's what charis means, not dunamis.

STRAWMAN. I did not say grace means only anything and certainly I never said it means gift. It is a gift---that is why it is called grace. Whose talking about dunamis? (power) The subject is grace. And you need to learn to diagram sentences and put all the parts in their proper order so you can find the subject and stop applying verbs and adverbs etc to the wrong thing.

You say grace only means a gift.
But, that's what charis means, not dunamis.

Gifts are functions granted by God.
But not the power needed to implement the gift.
The humble with a spiritual gift will be operative only by the filling of the Spirit. = power.

Paul was saying the power that made him what he was grace, not a gift.

He had that power because of God's grace. In grace God gave it to him. Only God has it to give. And in your first two sentences you say grace (charis)means gift, and in your last sentence you say the power that made him--- was grace, not a gift. If you don't stop going freaking all over the place contradicting yourself right and left, trying to play puzzle games, often making no sense whatsoever, I will close your platform. Pretty sure that is all it is to you.

It does not say...


But he said to me, “My gift is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power
may rest on me. "
It does not say that. The gift of God to Paul was to be an apostle.

WTFudge!

Signing out for the night.

 

[ReverendRV]

 

[GeneZ]

Typos because editing timed out on me...


So...



Religion is what divides the body of Christ....

Many know the Word, but they do not "know" the Word.

Religion simply knows the word...
Its memorization and recall, followed by obedience in the power of ones emotions.

Grace blesses with the power to have the Word made known to you. Intimacy with the Word.

If one wants to know the Word as God would have it?
It requires a path with many corrections given along the way.

Because?

Isaiah 55:8-9


“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."

That means we all inevitably will need correction.

 

[GeneZ]

I never said grace did mean gift. I said it was a gift. Are you gathering your straw men back up?
Charisefinition: grace, kindness
Usage: (a) grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ, (b) favor, (c) gratitude, thanks, (d) a favor, kindness.
By grace you are saved-----(nothing merited salvation. Not one's deeds, or actions or choices. )through faith (Trust in Christ) and that is not of yourself (no choice, no work, no nothing of yourself) but it is a gift of God ( the gift is not enabling power it is faith) and why one might ask and why does Paul tell us this? that no one can boast. So saying it is of yourself, your choice, is boasting. God wants us to know salvation is all of Him---His grace.

Kindness does not save us.
God's Justice saves us.

God may administer his justice in kindness when its called for.
But, kindness does not save.

Not by works?

Works were a man made system of requirements devised by religious men that they claimed would gain salvation if followed religiously.

Yet Jesus said that there is one "work" alone, not a religious system of works, that saves.

​

​

John 6:28-29​

​

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works (plurality) God requires?”​

​

Jesus answered, “The work (singular) of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”​

The only work God honors in salvation is our work of believing in Jesus Christ.


In Gospel hearing?

Grace empowers our soul to have our flesh taken out of the picture when presented the Gospel.
For without that grace power enabling our soul that way? We could not be believe and be saved.


That is why we were saved by grace (needing our soul enabled to be free of our flesh),
through faith - (believing in Jesus Christ).

Being made able to believe is the work of God!

Believing in Jesus Christ is non meritorious. For who would not want to believe in Jesus?
That is how God sees it.





grace and peace .............

 

[TMSO]

I'll be working on this question today. Even if incomplete (and it grates against my perfectionistic tendencies), I will (Lord willing) post some time today after this post. I will @ you, so that you see it. I'll start a new thread.

Don't worry about perfection. I was asking for your understanding/reaction. My response was far from perfect because I was stating from feelings honed over the years through contemplation and reflection. Difficult to express that to satisfaction.

 

[His clay]

Don't worry about perfection. I was asking for your understanding/reaction. My response was far from perfect because I was stating from feelings honed over the years through contemplation and reflection. Difficult to express that to satisfaction.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/the-creator-creature-distinction.1290/

 

[His clay]

Sometimes the only response to repeated brazen incompetence and blundering from other posters is just laughter. @Arial is trying.

"STRAWMAN. I did not say grace means only anything and certainly I never said it means gift. It is a gift---that is why it is called grace. Whose talking about dunamis? (power) The subject is grace. And you need to learn to diagram sentences and put all the parts in their proper order so you can find the subject and stop applying verbs and adverbs etc to the wrong thing." Post #141

Yes, the other poster needs some serious help with basic language skills.

 

[GeneZ]

STRAWMAN. I did not say grace means only anything and certainly I never said it means gift. It is a gift---that is why it is called grace.

What I said was in response to what you cited... Right here.

Charise finition: grace, kindness
Usage: (a) grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ, (b) favor, (c) gratitude, thanks, (d) a favor, kindness.

But, not one peep said about what Paul attributed to the grace given him by the Lord?

​

But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." ​

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me."​

See the problem?

 

[GeneZ]

Try this on for size....

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=grace+from+God+is+power

(Google - grace from God is power)

grace and peace .........

 

[Arial]

What I said was in response to what you cited... Right here.

Charise finition: grace, kindness
Usage: (a) grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ, (b) favor, (c) gratitude, thanks, (d) a favor, kindness.

But, not one peep said about what Paul attributed to the grace given him by the Lord?

​

But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." ​

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me."​

See the problem?

You are showing over and over again your inability to comprehend what you are reading. As a gift means it is given----grace is given without price, without merit, without meeting any conditions, without deserving it. It is favor, it is kindness. It does not mean gift is the definition of grace. See your problem? And it is not Paul's power, it is Christ's power. It is God holding Him up and that is sufficient. Remember He did not remove the thorn from Paul's side. Paul lived with it.

 

[Arial]

Sometimes the only response to repeated brazen incompetence and blundering from other posters is just laughter. @Arial is trying.

"STRAWMAN. I did not say grace means only anything and certainly I never said it means gift. It is a gift---that is why it is called grace. Whose talking about dunamis? (power) The subject is grace. And you need to learn to diagram sentences and put all the parts in their proper order so you can find the subject and stop applying verbs and adverbs etc to the wrong thing." Post #141

Yes, the other poster needs some serious help with basic language skills.

He is like a man digging a hole. He sees he has gone so deep he cannot get out of it so says, "I guess the only thing to do is keep digging."

 

[GeneZ]

You are showing over and over again your inability to comprehend what you are reading. As a gift means it is given----grace is given without price, without merit, without meeting any conditions, without deserving it. It is favor, it is kindness. It does not mean gift is the definition of grace. See your problem? And it is not Paul's power, it is Christ's power. It is God holding Him up and that is sufficient. Remember He did not remove the thorn from Paul's side. Paul lived with it.

Paul was "given" a gift of needed power. For God assigned Paul a job that Paul did not have the strength to accomplish.
Grace is God providing for all our needs, so we can do what He preordained for us to do... God will provide if we are humble.

I am not alone with this concept...

The Power of Grace: How You Can Access God's Unlimited Power to Accomplish the Impossible.​

https://www.amazon.com/Power-Grace-Unlimited-Accomplish-Impossible/dp/1606836676#:~:text=so much more.-,Grace is the power that God willingly gives us to,order to be set free.

 

[Arial]

Kindness does not save us.
God's Justice saves us.

God's mercy saves us. He does this because Jesus took care of the justice by taking our just punishment in our place. Anyone who thinks their trip to heaven is based on justice does not know God and has a vastly distorted view of themselves. The ones who get justice are all in hell.

The only work God honors in salvation is our work of believing in Jesus Christ.

That isn't our work. That was Christ's work and that is what we are to believe. Now if you say you chose Christ, instead of what God says about it, that He chose you and gave you the faith you need, that it is Christ who quickens you to life and not you yourself, then you did the work necessary for His death and resurrection to be given to you. And that is just another form of the same thing the Jews thought.

Grace empowers our soul to have our flesh taken out of the picture when presented the Gospel.

That is complete rubbish. I have asked you twice to support that with scripture and you have not.

For without that grace power enabling our soul that way? We could not be believe and be saved.

Grace isn't power. It is grace.

That is why we were saved by grace (needing our soul enabled to be free of our flesh),

That is eisegesis of the worst sort.

Believing in Jesus Christ is non meritorious. For who would not want to believe in Jesus?
That is how God sees it.

What liberty you take with the Most High God. But I have news for you though, more people don't want to believe in Him than do. You have a really warped sense of the entire God/man relationship.

 

[Arial]

Paul was "given" a gift of needed power. For God assigned Paul a job that Paul did not have the strength to accomplish.
Grace is God providing for all our needs, so we can do what He preordained for us to do... God will provide if we are humble.

I am not alone with this concept...

The Power of Grace: How You Can Access God's Unlimited Power to Accomplish the Impossible.​

https://www.amazon.com/Power-Grace-Unlimited-Accomplish-Impossible/dp/1606836676#:~:text=so much more.-,Grace is the power that God willingly gives us to,order to be set free.

Now I begin to see the root of your problem. It would take a caste of professional deprogrammers to break the spell.

..
Dr. Larry Ollison is founder and Senior Pastor of Walk on the Water Faith Church and founder of Larry Ollison Ministries. With over forty years in the ministry, he is a very popular speaker nationally and internationally and ministers the Word of Faith through radio, television, Internet, and daily e-mail devotionals.

The Kenneth Copeland crowd.

 

[Arial]

No link?

Why did you stop there?
https://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/12-9.htm

3588 [e]	ἡ hē	the	Art-NFS
1063 [e]	γὰρ gar	for	Conj
1411 [e]	δύναμις dynamis	power	N-NFS
1722 [e]	ἐν en	in	Prep
769 [e]	ἀσθενείᾳ astheneia	weakness	N-DFS
5055 [e]	τελεῖται. teleitai	is perfected.	V-PIM/P-3S
2236 [e]	Ἥδιστα Hēdista	Most gladly	Adv-S
3767 [e]	οὖν oun	therefore	Conj
3123 [e]	μᾶλλον mallon	rather	Adv
2744 [e]	καυχήσομαι kauchēsomai	will I boast	V-FIM-1S
1722 [e]	ἐν en	in	Prep
3588 [e]	ταῖς tais	the	Art-DFP
769 [e]	ἀσθενείαις, astheneiais	weaknesses	N-DFP
1473 [e]	‹μου› mou	of me,	PPro-G1S
2443 [e]	ἵνα hina	so that	Conj
1981 [e]	ἐπισκηνώσῃ episkēnōsē	may rest	V-ASA-3S
1909 [e]	ἐπ’ ep’	upon	Prep
1473 [e]	ἐμὲ eme	me	PPro-A1S
3588 [e]	ἡ hē	the	Art-NFS
1411 [e]	δύναμις dynamis	power	N-NFS
3588 [e]	τοῦ tou	-	Art-GMS
5547 [e]	Χριστοῦ. Christou	of Christ.	N-GMS

Context must dictate a word's meaning.

Why did you stop short? For the gift was power!

Because I was answering the question you asked. Which was where was charis in that passage. We are not discussing what is power, but what is grace. God did not say to Paul "My power is sufficient---" He said "My grace is sufficient----" The power was not Paul's it was Christ. And without knowing what the thorn was we cannot realy honeslty discuss it beyond what it says. We are told this: So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatnes of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger os Satan to harass me, to keep me from becomeing conceited. Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But He said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness."

In the first 23 years of my walk with Jesus I attended many churches that to one degree or another were word of faith. At the time they had the appearance of being biblical because they preached and taught from scripture and I was a baby Christian and believed and trusted them, though I also had instinctive misgivings and questions with some things they said. And I remained inmmature all that time because of this. Looking back, there was no systemeatic presentation of the scriptures, no expounding on it, no biblical doctrine, and I do not think that even the preachers had any idea how to do this or know its importance.

Mostly it was using scriptures to get what we want from God. Formulas and such. It was about this world and what we can have and do in this world, and not about seeking God but seeking His hand. So I now understand why it is that you turn all the passages you present to be about us. Why man is central to your religion and God is the servent.

 

[Arial]

Paul was "given" a gift of needed power. For God assigned Paul a job that Paul did not have the strength to accomplish.
Grace is God providing for all our needs, so we can do what He preordained for us to do... God will provide if we are humble.

Paul was not given any power. God was the wind beneath his wings. Paul was equipped and taught and led by the Holy Spirit. Do you not think the God who created everything and all that sustains it with the word of His mouth can do these things in us? And the passage you keep referring to has nothing to do with Paul's apostleship but was concerning the thing he was suffering from, that he was pleading with God to remove, when God spoke those words, "My grace is sufficient for you for in weakness My power is made strong." We know from the context it was to keep Paul from becoming conceited after he had witnessed unspeakable revelations. So why don't you figure out what GOD meant---not what Larry Ollison says God means. And when you do the work of finding out what God was saying, let me know.

 

[Arial]

@GeneZ

Out of curiosity I watched Ollison's you tube video "God Wants You Well (Session 18). I won't comment on all of it except to say it is all about what we can get from God and not about God at all. It is full of errors, contains no exegesis, no expounding on the word, full of lies.

I will point out one specific. He says it is always the devil who makes us sick, and it is the result of us being tempted and giving into the temptation. He makes sickness to be a trial or test and the devil trying to destroy the purpose God has for us individually. He says God will never even give the devil permission to make us sick ior suffer in any way. Now compare that to the scripture we have been discussing. 2 Cor 12:7-10



7So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations,a a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Compare it to this: Job 1:6-12




6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan[b] also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 8 And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

And so on through the rest of the chapter, in which all his children and livestock were destroyed and yet Job did not sin against God. So in chapter 2 Job comes before God again and says "Skin for skin! All that a man has he will give for his life. But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face. And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, he is in our hand; only spare his life."

7.So Satan struck Job with loathsome sores from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.

Do you begin to see how you are following those who do not actually teach what the word says, and as a result are not able to even know you are not following his word or how to go about it? And you come against in haughtiness those who are trying to show you? And end up like a cat chasing its tail?

Could/would you worship God as we see Him in Job?

 

[GeneZ]

God's mercy saves us.

God's mercy is his expression of love while He saves us.
Saving us by fulfilling in us the demands of His righteousness and justice.
Mercy in itself does not save.
Mercy reveals God's expressed attitude of compassion while He is in the process of saving us.

Forgiving forgives.
Feeling mercy while forgiving does not in itself forgive.
Mercy shows love being expressed in the act of forgiving.
Its the forgiving that forgives.

Mercy is like inspirational background music while the act of forgiving is taking place.

 

[GeneZ]

That isn't our work. That was Christ's work and that is what we are to believe.

Christ's work was to clear the obstacles of depravity out of the way which were preventing our souls from believing.

Now we have....

He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”​

​

​

​

Acts 16:30-31

​

 

[GeneZ]

@GeneZ

Out of curiosity I watched Ollison's you tube video "God Wants You Well (Session 18). I won't comment on all of it except to say it is all about what we can get from God and not about God at all. It is full of errors, contains no exegesis, no expounding on the word, full of lies.

You want exegesis and expounding? That is good.

You are a moderator. I give you permission to email me if you desire to.
Then I can show you what real exegesis and expounding entails.

This format forbids doing justice to what genuine exegesis and "expounding" entails.

grace and peace ............