Christian Baptism, does it include infants?

[Red Baker]

Before we let Paul give to us the answer, as to when he was saved~let us first lay this foundation, so to not leave ourselves without a solid defense against the scoffers that will surely come.

1. Every word of God is to be carefully considered to reject sound bites for the sense instead.

The truth comes by carefully reading God's word very distinctly and then giving the true sense of what you are reading, so that, you and your hearers can understand what you are reading. Nehemiah 8:8

Most all corruption of the scriptures is based in sound bits, or the mere sound of words; I would say almost exclusively; I could give many examples, but I believe the reader could do so, as well as I can, for this is not too deep to follow for any of us, and most know that this is so. Proverbs 30:5; Matthew 4:4

Jesus and Paul argued doctrine from a single words, teaching us the care we should pay to each word ourselves. Matthew 22:32,43; John 8:58; 10:35; Galatians 3:16; 4:9; Hebrews 8:13; 12:27

2. The Bible is written in such a way to confuse men about doctrine unless they come humbly.

God is great, and there is nothing that he can not do. He could have easily given us scriptures that every single person would agree perfectly on, without one single disagreement among us, but he did not chose to do it in that manner, and for reasons that he himself chose. Agree?

Consider the reason why he spoke in parables most of the time. I will help you out. Matthew 13:10-17

When people reject truth, then God sends them a strong delusion to believe a lie. 2Thess. 2:9-12!

In the OT, God sent lying spirits to Ahab and to Israel. 1 Kings 22:19-23; Ezekiel 14:1-10!

So, we know that the scriptures are not written as clear as they could be written~far from it: it is written with infinite wisdom and holy judgement to reveal truths to some, and to hide it from others. This is so, whether one like it or not, it does not change the truth of this. There are many more scriptures that will prove this to be so.

3. Jesus had to deal with problem texts being thrown at him by different Jewish denominations.

Search the scriptures in the gospels and see how many times that Jesus answered certain problem text (not from his understanding, but those who thought that they had him trapped in his doctrine!)

The Pharisees at the first, thought they had him many times, even though they later avoided him as much as possible, when it came to dealing with questions concerning the scriptures. They confronted him with provisions concerning divorce~Matthew 19:3-12.

The Herodains confronted him about the legality of taxes~Matthew 22:23-44; The Sadducees confronted him with Moses' rule for childless widows; Matthew 22:23-33; The scribes and Pharisees confronted him about Moses' law for adultery~John 8:1-11.

A. The devil and his false teachers have corrupted the words of God from the very beginning.

The devil question and altered God word to Adam and Eve~Genesis 3:1-5

Jesus had to face the devil's misapplication of Psalm 91:11,12; Paul said that there were many already in his days corrupting the word of God~2 Cor. 2:17; Paul warned us that they shall increase in the last days: 2 Timothy 3:1-4:5: Peter wrote about unlearned and ignorant men wresting Paul's words already, before the scriptures were completed! 2 Peter 3:15,16; many other scriptures warning us of that which was to come: Titus 1:10,11; 2 Peter 2:1-3; Jude 1:4

So we are now ready to let Paul tell us when he was saved.

 

[Red Baker]

Let me establish this truth: We establish the truth by clear teaching, and then we reconcile all "opposing" verses to it. Until we reconcile all the word of God on any subject, we cannot be sure of our doctrine. If a great change in presuppositions were needed for us to hold the truth, we trust the living God to convict and guide us, and we deal fairly with every text, by holy rules. God owns all truth, and He gives it by His grace to those He chooses. Until you reconcile all verses, there may be one or more that overthrow your premises!

When approaching the word of God, hermeneutics in its simplest form is a two-step process. You first prove what a verse cannot mean by the rest of the Bible, and "only then" do you begin the process of considering the other rules of interpretation to find its positive sense.

Let us consider the two most important points yet mention: (1) Eternal life is an "unconditional gift" by God's grace and will in Jesus Christ for the elect only.

1. Man is unable to obey or please God~(Ps 14:1-3; Rom 3:9-18; 8:7-8; Eph 2:1; Gal 5:17).

2. God denies man's will or works~(John 1:13; 3:8; Rom 9:15-16; Eph 1:5,11; Titus 3:5).

3. Faith and works are the result of salvation~ (Eph 2:10; Phil 2:12-13; Ist John 3:7; 5:1,4).

4. Jesus Christ saves the elect by Himself~(John 19:30; Rom 5:19; Heb 1:3; 9:15; Ist Pet 1:2).

5. The gospel and ordinances do not give life~(Ist Cor 1:24; Gal 3:21; Eph 4:12; 2nd Tim 1:10).

6. Unconditional salvation is illustrated~(Luke 1:15; Acts 10:34-35)

The New Testament speaks of salvation in five distinct phases that must be clearly divided.

1. The eternal phase is God's election~(John 6:38-39; Rom 8:29-39; Eph 1:3-12; 2nd Tim 1:9).

2. The legal phase is Christ's death~(Romans 3:24-26; 5:14-19; 2nd Cor 5:21; Heb 2:14-17).

3. The vital phase is the Spirit's regeneration~(John 3:6-8; Ephesians 2:1-6; Titus 3:5)

4. The practical phase is gospel conversion~(Phil 2:12; Jas 2:14-26; 5:19-20; 2nd Pet 1:5-11).

5. The final phase is glorification at the resurrection~(John 5:28-29; Romans 8:23,29-30; Ist Peter 1:5)

This last section is the key that unlocks the biblical sense of Mark 16:16

 

[Mr GLee]

Not according to Eph 2:8-9. . .salvation is for the believer. . .baptism follows, throughout the book of Acts.

Water baptism is used in a ceremonial laws as a shadow. It is on a volunteer bases to join the new priesthood of believers .

It is not a sign to those that get wet that they have salvation .

Aarons two sons got wet and found out the hard way .Strange fire (adding to the living word ).

 

[Red Baker]

Let's ask Paul the question: when were you saved?

Paul said he was saved before the world began (2nd Tim 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (Ist Tim 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (Ist Tim 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Rom 13:11).

Can you believe it? Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. And this is the key to understanding our wonderful salvation in Jesus Christ, and those problem texts that people try to us against us, to insert their own works.

Since God saves sinners in stages, or phases, we must not limit salvation to just one idea or one event at one time. Paul saw his own salvation occurring in five phases.

It used to be called the Ordo Salutis of salvation, which means the order of salvation; but it is not studied or preached much any more. We live in the perilous times of the last days, when men no longer want sound doctrine preached to them (2nd Tim 3:1 - 4:4). They prefer fables over truth, so the true doctrine of salvation has been almost lost from the earth.

Everyone talks about "getting saved," but no one can explain it from the Bible. There are "invitations" and "decisions" and "methods" for salvation, but none of these words or ideas are from the Bible.

Paul clearly taught five phases of salvation, the are:

The ETERNAL PHASE is God's plan and choice from eternity to allow sin into the world and to save His elect from it. Since He is eternal and sovereign, God planned in eternity all that He does in time. There are no surprises to God. He planned to allow sin, so that He could display His glorious grace in saving His elect from it and displaying His power and wrath on the rest.

The LEGAL PHASE is God's work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. His perfect holiness and justice cannot overlook sins and acquit wicked men. He must punish their sins in another, even Jesus Christ. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.

The VITAL PHASE is God's application of these benefits to us personally and individually. Though He planned to save us from eternity and legally did so with Christ's death on the cross, we still have a depraved and wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness. This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime from conception to death. John the Baptist and the thief on the cross biblical examples.

The PRACTICAL PHASE is our response to His salvation. He sends His Spirit into our hearts, and we cry "Abba, Father." With new hearts from regeneration, we seek the truth and love it when we hear it. We hear the gospel, and we believe it. We want to be baptized to show Him our love. We want to know more of what we can do to please Him, and we gratefully cherish all His promises, which give us comfort and peace now.

The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies, and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future.

As I said in the above post, knowing these five phrases are the key that unlock so many scriptures for us, and will lead us into a proper interpretation of Mark 16:16

When Was Cornelius Saved?

Acts 10:1,2

"There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway."

Cornelius was accepted with God, born again by the Spirit of God, and in possession of eternal life long before he heard of Peter, for his righteous actions and God's declarations about him prove this easy conclusion. No unregenerate man can or will do the things that Cornelius did fervently and zealously, which things were accepted by God in heaven!

Cornelius had been elected by God the Father before the world began (2nd Tim 1:9); the Son of God had obeyed and died for him some years earlier (Heb 10:10-14); and the Spirit had applied the work in the vital act of regeneration during his life (Titus 3:5). Peter, states these three facts plainly for all who will read (Ist Pet 1:2).

God had already made an incredible change in his life by giving him a heart separated him from other Italians . The life-giving voice of the Lord Jesus Christ had called for him to live spiritually, and he lived as certainly as Lazarus came forth from the tomb. He only needed Peter to loose him from some Roman and Jewish burial clothes!

Peter brought the gospel to save Cornelius from despair over his sins (Luke 7:36-50; Rom 7:24-25), from Jewish ignorance of salvation (Rom 10:1-5), from Roman idolatry and superstition (Ist Thess 1:9-10), from ignorance about life and immortality (2nd Tim 1:9-10), and from confusion about the resurrection (Ist Cor 15:2). He needed to learn the way of God more perfectly (Acts 18:24-28), and how to prove his election (2nd Pet 1:5-11), including that of repentance, baptism, to please God (Acts 2:37-47).

It is absurd to make Cornelius a lost sinner that pleased God by works of the flesh! It is absurd to believe he had to make some silly decision for Jesus in order to be justified and born again. He was already serving the Lord far beyond a fleshly decision. He needed Peter to direct his new man in the way of righteousness, not help him get born again.

The word of God is plain. Except a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3). The kingdom of God cannot be shown to a man not born again, because he cannot and will not see it. If a man believes on Jesus, he is already born again (Ist John 5:1). If he loves the brethren, he is already born again (I John 4:7). If he does righteousness, he is already born again (I John 2:29). These are evidences of eternal life!

Men do not want a sovereign God, so they corrupt the doctrine of salvation to make their own freewill their saviour. They want to be in charge. Because Cornelius is an extensive salvation story, they corrupt it as well. They make Peter and Cornelius cooperating saviours. We believe Jesus Christ saved Cornelius by Himself ... before he met Peter!

 

[Red Baker]

1st Peter 3:21

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Few points to consider:

1. Those who are baptized properly and with understanding, profit greater than some who believe yet were never baptized for whatever reason it matter not what one could add to a list that could be made. Water baptism does indeed add to our knowledge of the truth, over and above those who have never been baptized. Example:

A. The thief on the cross. He believe that Jesus was indeed the Son of God, just before his spirit left his body, yet was never baptized. His knowledge about Christ was very limited, thereby, he did not have a practical "salvation experience" that should come from being baptized, if that person is instructed properly concerning why they were baptized, and what baptism show forth. Consider this verse:

Mark 16:16

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Most men do not understand this scriptures and it really is not that hard to understand. When men come to such scriptures, they come with their preconceived, and brainwashed understanding. What a shame. Our Lord Jesus ONLY CONDEMN ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE~those who believe not. He did not condemn those who had never been baptized, or shall never be baptized~again only unbelievers. Now, the Lord did indeed say this: "he that believeth and is baptized SHALL BE SAVED."

The salvation in this scriptures has nothing to do with eternal life, nothing. It has to do with a practical salvation of KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING! A person who is baptized properly by immersion, with a understanding of why they are being baptized has more knowledge concerning the religion of Jesus Christ, and the true gospel of God. That is all our Lord was teaching, when he said those words. How do I know that. By reading the NT epistles. Even the verse under consideration. "Baptism doth indeed save us! How Peter?

By the resurrection of Jesus Christ! Being dip in water, has no power to save from sin and condemnation. Jesus' faith, obedience and death, and resurrection is what redeems us from the curse of the law of God. Baptism show forth these these in a figure. Those who truly know these things, have being regenerated first by God, then we have a fuller salvation of knowledge when we are baptized with an understanding of what we are doing and what we truly believe in. Our understanding is greater than most of the OT saints, who did not have this ordnance of baptism as we have in the NT.

2. Even Peter said that baptism of itself is and answer to God from a good conscience, made so by the quicken power of Almighty God. This no wicked man has until he is quicken by God.

3. Consider the parenthesis used by Peter. Why do we use parenthesis? So that what we are saying will not be misunderstood as to mean something else, other than what we intend our words to mean. In the parenthesis, Peter leaves no doubt that baptism of itself, does not wash away our sins literally.

 

[Mr GLee]

Let me establish this truth: We establish the truth by clear teaching, and then we reconcile all "opposing" verses to it. Until we reconcile all the word of God on any subject, we cannot be sure of our doctrine. If a great change in presuppositions were needed for us to hold the truth, we trust the living God to convict and guide us, and we deal fairly with every text, by holy rules. God owns all truth, and He gives it by His grace to those He chooses. Until you reconcile all verses, there may be one or more that overthrow your premises!

When approaching the word of God, hermeneutics in its simplest form is a two-step process. You first prove what a verse cannot mean by the rest of the Bible, and "only then" do you begin the process of considering the other rules of interpretation to find its positive sense.

Let us consider the two most important points yet mention: (1) Eternal life is an "unconditional gift" by God's grace and will in Jesus Christ for the elect only.

1. Man is unable to obey or please God~(Ps 14:1-3; Rom 3:9-18; 8:7-8; Eph 2:1; Gal 5:17).

2. God denies man's will or works~(John 1:13; 3:8; Rom 9:15-16; Eph 1:5,11; Titus 3:5).

3. Faith and works are the result of salvation~ (Eph 2:10; Phil 2:12-13; Ist John 3:7; 5:1,4).

4. Jesus Christ saves the elect by Himself~(John 19:30; Rom 5:19; Heb 1:3; 9:15; Ist Pet 1:2).

5. The gospel and ordinances do not give life~(Ist Cor 1:24; Gal 3:21; Eph 4:12; 2nd Tim 1:10).

6. Unconditional salvation is illustrated~(Luke 1:15; Acts 10:34-35)

The New Testament speaks of salvation in five distinct phases that must be clearly divided.

1. The eternal phase is God's election~(John 6:38-39; Rom 8:29-39; Eph 1:3-12; 2nd Tim 1:9).

2. The legal phase is Christ's death~(Romans 3:24-26; 5:14-19; 2nd Cor 5:21; Heb 2:14-17).

3. The vital phase is the Spirit's regeneration~(John 3:6-8; Ephesians 2:1-6; Titus 3:5)

4. The practical phase is gospel conversion~(Phil 2:12; Jas 2:14-26; 5:19-20; 2nd Pet 1:5-11).

5. The final phase is glorification at the resurrection~(John 5:28-29; Romans 8:23,29-30; Ist Peter 1:5)

This last section is the key that unlocks the biblical sense of Mark 16:16

Literalizing takes away the use of metaphors like water in parables which without Christ spoke not. Catholics must call it holy water as some sort of born again suffering tool in Limbo and Purgatory. The fountain of salt .

James 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.




Mark 16:16 King James Version16 He that believeth and is baptized by Holy Spirit the unseen work of the head (husband) shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[Carbon]

Never explicit in any sense. It is always implicit in the mind of the misguided Calvinist.

 

[Carbon]

I know Jim, he does not play games with the scriptures, he firmly believes that sins are forgiven through being baptized in water.

Okay. Thanks

 

[Carbon]

Infants who die before the age of accountability do not need to be saved; these infants have never sinned. They have not yet sinned and are therefore not dead in trespasses and sins such that they need saving. It is only the believer in the false doctrine of Original Sin and the even worse doctrine of Total Depravity that thinks God would eternally condemn the unaccountable child. The unaccountable child is not lost, the unaccountable child is not a sinner.

And by the way, it does not teach that no one should be baptized who has not believed. It teaches nothing one way or the other about baptizing one who doesn't believe. It is not even a concept.

Oh wait, I remember now. you are a Pelagian. And you deny the doctrine of Origional Sin. So, your reply is not biblical.

 

[Carbon]

Just another fallacy arising from the heresy of Original Sin and Total Depravity. Of course, we know that infants are not regenerated. There is no need for them to be regenerated. They have committed no trespasses and sins in which they are dead and in need of being regenerated.

And I won't address the question of OSAS here now.

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[Carbon]

I would love to consider Mark 16:16. But, let's briefly consider a couple of things you said.

Okay.

The is no such doctrine as the age of accountability, for all men were held accountable in Adam

Oh, I agree Red. There is no such doctrine.

~and all received the same judgment. Romans 5:12-14; 1st Corinthians 15:22. A subject for another time, not now.

Every scriptures we have in our English bible is inspired of God and part of the holy scriptures, if we cannot truth one part to be the inspired word of God, we cannot trust any of it.

Your preaching to the choir.

God has exalted his word above his name and has protected his word for his children from Moses until now from being corrupted~Psalm 12 is one of his promises to us concerning this. Enough on this for now.

Scripture is inerrant. God has preserved His word, I agree.

Now, to Mark 16:16~I want to ask a few questions and then answer them.

Okay.

Question#1~How does the scriptures used the word saved/save/salvation in the NT?

#2~Is it used in the same sense every time?

#3~When are we saved?

#4~Without adding our personal opinions~Base upon Mark 16:16, what condemns a person~not believing, not being baptized, or both?

#5~Base upon the Spirit's witness,~what is the evidence of one that is born of God, more than any other thing given in the scriptures?

#6~Are OT saints and NT saints born the same way?

The first question will be the one that I want to consider the most, since understanding the proper sense of the word as it is used in Mark 16:16, will determine who has the truth on this verse and who does not. It will take me the greater part of today to address this scripture, in the manner in which it should be addressed.

Okay, I will be waiting.

 

[Carbon]

I believe we all will confess that all scriptures must flow in perfect harmony, or else, we have not arrived at its truth as far as what we are trying to understand, agree?

Did you know the KJV and, say, NASB and ESV are from two different ancient scrolls?

By my doctrine overall consider would make me a Baptist by others account, yet, I do not consider myself of any main stream line, just because the word Baptist is a misnomer, at yeast to me, since there are several different types of Baptist. And, besides, I have not been part of any Baptist churches for almost fifty years. That hardly qualifier's me being a Baptist, other than, I believe in immersion only, and I believe in once loved, always loved! Which is so much better than saying: once saved, always saved, since I do know that we as God's children can lose our practical salvation of peace, joy and fellowship~but never our sonship. But that's enough on that point.

Okay, so far I understand you as not liking certain doctrines, at least not by name, so you change them to fit your liking. You are an Arminian. Enough on this for now.

I said that, to say this~Most folk who call themselves Baptist, have no clue whatsoever what Mark 16:16 means, and really do not care.

I don't know if we can say most.

They are very content using religion as a insurance policy to give them somewhat peace of mind concerning death when it comes. Many will be disappointed.

Okay

There are others of different faith, that reject water baptism as a means to enter into life, yet do not do interpret Jesus' words properly or even try, they are no different from the Baptist, they too, are very contend believing that their religion that they have chosen to fit their lifestyle should be enough to make God accept them in that day, if there is really a day of Judgment coming.

Where are you going with this?

There are some who seem very sincere, yet try to make being baptized to mean something other than being baptized in water~yet, we know that they are in error as well, yet more so from just not being able to see the truth, that they seem to love. God is indeed very merciful and longsuffering to our ignorance, if we are at least sincere in seeking for truth, as we all have learned from past experience, at least, I have.

Hmmm, . . . Okay.

Question #2 above~"Is it used in the same sense every time?" The answer to this question is no, it (saved/save/salvation) is not used in the same sense throughout the scriptures. We must establish and prove this point, so that when we read such scriptures as Mark 16:16 then its meaning will become clear, base upon the scriptures overall considered. So many folk have a agenda, system, or a particular church that they want to defend instead of the truth of the scriptures~and when they come to such scriptures as Mark 16:16, then their agenda, system, or church, has more of a drawing power, than a love for the truth of the scriptures, which are God's testimony concerning truth. We should only be concern with pleasing God, not ourselves, or anyone or anything, be that it may.

Okay. I agree we should read God's word and let it speak.

Question #1~"How does the scriptures used the word saved/save/salvation in the NT?" Is it used only in being saved from sin and condemnation to being saved to eternal life?

It is used in that sense, but to many surprise, very little. Yet, when people hear of being saved, whether or not they know any truth, their minds can only think of being saved from "hell fire". They cannot even consider anything else, that's just how shadow our society is! They spend their precious time in doing useless things that cannot profit their souls. How sad, but very true.

Okay.

Let us look at many scriptures and see how the Spirit use the words save/saved/salvation and so that when we read the scriptures, we can read them with understanding.

Okay.

Go on....

 

[Carbon]

It is not a sign to those that get wet that they have salvation .

Who said it is?

 

[Red Baker]

Okay, so far I understand you as not liking certain doctrines, at least not by name, so you change them to fit your liking. You are an Arminian. Enough on this for now.

Carbon my brother, I'm far from being an Arminian. I would fall under the "high Calvinist, or hyper Calvinist"~and I do know the differences between them, even if some of them do not. No pun intended, just stating a truth.

 

[Carbon]

Carbon my brother, I'm far from being an Arminian. I would fall under the "high Calvinist, or hyper Calvinist"~and I do know the differences between them, even if some of them do not. No pun intended, just stating a truth.

Okay then. I stand corrected.

 

[Carbon]

Carbon my brother, I'm far from being an Arminian. I would fall under the "high Calvinist, or hyper Calvinist"~and I do know the differences between them, even if some of them do not. No pun intended, just stating a truth.

But why would you be a hyper-Calvinist? You dont agree the gospel must be preached and heard?

 

[Arial]

@JIM
So let's see how well you follow the good teaching of your upbringing and the imperatives given us in the Scripture on how the brethren are to relate to one another. So far I have learned from you the following:

You have a really strange view of grace.

But no exposition on what a correct understanding of grace would be.

That is really quite silly

That I am silly---in fact quite silly in what I say and believe, explained by an analogy that in no way is relatable to what I believe.

Clearly you don't understand causality very well.

That I am remiss in my understanding of something but no "correct" understanding given.

Not only do you not understand causality, you clearly do not understand grace.

That not only am I stupid in my understanding of causality but also in my understanding of grace. But no enlightenment on the subjects given,

And one for which you are clueless.

That I am clueless but no clues given.

But in no way would I think, as you do, that God forced me through election and regeneration to believe. What an insecure being you present God to be in not even having the ability to communicate effectively the opportunities He offers, leaving the choice up to that individual.

That I think something I do not think at all. That I present God as insecure and unable to communicate effectively the opportunities He offers, when in fact I believe no such thing.

And of course, your entire theology rests upon the idea that God so dimmed the mind of mankind, because of Adam's sin, that he can't even think straight. All the talk about the fall and man's fallen nature and yet those terms are never uttered in God's word. That entire perception is a construct driving every aspect of your soteriology. It is a slap in the fact of God

That my beliefs rest upon a warped idea of God and man and that they are a slap in the face of God.

In your theology, your mind is altered such that you have no ability to think otherwise. In your theology you have no choice whatsoever; instead, you have been forced to, obviously against your own intentions, to think that you recognize that power and person love of God and the magnitude of the rescue.

That I am deluded.

What amazes me is the pure depth of arrogance and pride inherently expressed by those who think, in your theology, that they, above the mass of the rest of humanity, have been so chosen. The totally deceitful humility involved in claiming such a position is astounding.

That I am arrogant and full of pride and that I consider myself above the masses. That my deceitfulness is astounding.

Let me go find a hole and crawl in it!

Out of curiosity: why is it that without exception in all my experience, and observing the same experience I see others of Reformed theology having, in debates on the things of God; out of curiosity, why is it that those opposed to it always debate in this manner? Using their opinions of the theology as the basis for making claims against the actual theology, and resort to demeaning both the theology and the ones who are trying to have an expositional debate on the teachings in it?

Do better!

 

[JIM]

Oh wait, I remember now. you are a Pelagian. And you deny the doctrine of Origional Sin. So, your reply is not biblical.

No, I am not a Pelagian. A Pelagian belief is that mankind has the innate ability to achieve perfection. I believe no such thing. So once again, you are wrong.

 

[Carbon]

No, I am not a Pelagian. A Pelagian belief is that mankind has the innate ability to achieve perfection. I believe no such thing. So once again, you are wrong.

Well, my friend, your beliefs point to Pelagianism. Sorry

 

[Red Baker]

Did you know the KJV and, say, NASB and ESV are from two different ancient scrolls?

Brother, I do not waste time of knowing such things, it serves no purpose. The KJV came to us (the English speaking people of this world) shortly after the printing press was invented, and our forefathers laid down their life base on its teaching. It is the only copy of the scriptures in English that is not copyrighted, and never will be! All other versions are here for : $$$$$$ and to pervert the teachings in our KJV.

The following was written in 1650 by Samuel Richardson a Particular Baptist in England.

"The Priests say that we know not the original, and our Bibles are not rightly translated, nor cannot be pronounced according to the original; besides in translations there are errors, for no translation is simply authentical, and the undoubted Word of God. We demand of you, answer if you can; as to how know you that your Hebrew and Greek copies are true copies? Is it not possible for any to write contrary to their copy, if copies may be printed false, they may be written false, the art of Printing is not above 350 years old. Can you produce the first original copy, or any of those the Apostles wrote? If not, the cause is the same and you know the original no more than those that know not Greek or Hebrew? If you may depend upon the faithfulness of the Writer and Printer of your Copies, why not others upon those that did it upon oath? Doctor Fulke in his confutation of the Rheims Testament justifieth the English Translation of the Bible, in his “New Testament Confutation,” printed in 1589. But we receive not the truth by tradition. I would know of you that are so for Hebrew and Greek, &c., if the knowledge of the tongues be sufficient to teach those that have those tongues the mind of the Spirit of God in the Scriptures or no? If yea, then all that know these tongues know the mind of God; if no, then it is but an insufficient help, and what is an insufficient help worth more than nothing. The knowledge of Greek and Hebrew is a help to read a Greek and Hebrew Bible, because else they cannot read them. So the knowledge of the English tongue is of necessity to read the English Bible. The cause is the same; but the understanding the English tongue, and reading it in the Bible cannot give them to understand, the meaning of it no more than the knowledge of the tongues Greek and Hebrew though it helps them to read the Bible in those tongues, yet is not able to give them to understand the meaning of it. That this is so, some of them, who know the tongues confess; for Apollo was a learned man, he saw the first copies of the Bible, and if that could have caused him to know the mind of God what need had he to learn of Aquila a tradesman {one of the laity as the Priests use to say} and Priscilla his wife the mind of God as he did. Acts.18:26. Also what is the reason that those that know the tongues cannot agree among themselves? What is the mind of God in his Word, that some of you in your expositions are as contrary to each other as light is to darkness; the natural man cannot perceive the things that be of God; a natural man may be, and some are learned men it’s confessed; some of the Jesuits are good Scholars, &c., for they know the tongues, &c.; then it will follow a man may be such a learned man and yet cannot understand nor perceive the things of God. Nicodemus was a great scholar and teacher in Israel yet how simple was he concerning the meaning of Christ’s words. Tell me then what a help their human learning is to them in spiritual knowledge in the things of the Spirit. The Word saith that he reveals to us the deep things of God by his Spirit, I Cor.2:10; he saith not by Greek and Hebrew. If our translation be true then we can tell the meaning of it as well as you; if it be not true tell me what is that Preaching worth that is proved by a false translation, and if we must believe contrary to our translation because you say so, what is this but an implicit faith and human? And seeing you so differ among yourselves about the meaning of the word or the mind of God in it, tell me, how I may know which of you I am to believe? Also you confess that one word {in the ‘original’} could bear nine or ten divers significations; how know you which of them is the mind of God in that place, unless he reveal it to you? And if God please he can reveal it to a simple man, and God doth do so, and this is that for which Christ thanks his Father, because he hath hid these things from the wise and the learned, and revealed it unto babes, “the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee; and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed; and the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee; and he saith, I am not learned.” “For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes; the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.” Isa.29:10-12. Neither of them can read it, both put it off for they cannot understand it, the unlearned thinks as he hath been taught, that if he were learned in Greek and Hebrew he could understand it; but the former who was such a learned man could not do it, it is hid from the learned; for it’s not in being learned, nor in not being learned. What then will some say, it is because God hath not revealed it to them therefore they do not know it. The Lord saith that none can know the things of God, but he to whom the Spirit will reveal them. “But as it is written, eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit, for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him, even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? 378 But we have the mind of Christ.” I Cor.2:9-16. “I have more understanding than all my teachers, for thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.” Psal.119:99-100.

I must break this up into another short post.