Christian Baptism, does it include infants?

[Red Baker]

Btw…the first question. See post #166.

later, I have a meeting soon.

 

[Alive]

Greetings Alive~at regeneration we are translated into the kingdom of God's dear Son.

Colossians 1:13​

“Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:”

All have been translated vitally into the everlasting kingdom of Jesus Christ, which will become a reality in the future.

Obviously, the kingdom of God is used in different senses in the scriptures, another subject for another day.

A great topic to consider~start it, and I'll come.​

Thank you. I know an individual at another forum that teaches not all will be allowed into His Kingdom, thus creating another divide of those ‘In Christ’.
I reject all such teaching with energy.

 

[JIM]

Romans 6:3​

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”

Galatians 3:27​

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

When we were baptized, we were baptized into the religion of Jesus Christ, and were thereby, baptized into his death. That being said, I will add this: before the foundation of this world, we were chosen IN CHRIST by the election of GRACE; and I will add this: When Jesus lived in this world, we lived in him, when he died, we died with him; and when he was resurrected, we arose WITH HIM, all this before any of us were ever born! These truths, should testify to any who can see and hear the voices of the prophets and apostles, that water baptism, has no part in our sins being legally remitted, and God's condemnation lifted from us. Romans 5:12-21; and Ephesians 2:5,6; Colossians 2:12,13

What is true about us, is also true about all that went before us and those who will come after us. OT saints did not have baptism, because Christ had not yet come and establish his kingdom and his religion. Baptism identifies us as one with Jesus Christ's true religion, as the only religion acceptable unto God to take away the sins of fallen man~ along with many others truths it conveys. Baptism would have not had any meaning to the OT saints, as they had very little knowledge of the truth of the gospel under the NT, as NT saints do. They had the doctrine of circumcision, that separated them from other nations and their religion. Question: "What profit did circumcision serve Israel, as far a removing their sins legally? None.

Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Regeneration is the making alive one who was dead in his trespasses and sins. That passage asserts, counter to what you proclaim, specifically that regeneration occurs in baptism through faith.

 

[Red Baker]

You mention what ‘they’ are teaching. Is there some teaching you are mindful of that results from another translation?
I will be back in a couple hours or so, to read any response.

For sake of time let me give this link to consider. Jonathan and I have been friends for almost forty years at at one time worshipped together.

Every Word of God

Every Word of God A Treasure Chest of One-Word Arguments of the Bible Jesus and Paul argued doctrine from individual words of scripture, just as Moses had taught – man is to live by every word of God (Deut 8:3; Luke 4:4). They did not

letgodbetrue.com

He has several great articles to consider on this subject at the bottom of the page.

 

[JIM]

Good morning Jim~Actually, I never created them, they are in the scriptures and other men of God taught them in the past~John Gill, A. W. Pink. I used these two, because they actually lay it out, but others more or less taught the same, even you do, if you stop and think.

See here: A Fourfold Salvation

Concerning one following the other~they do. The only one some may never enjoy (or least to its fullest degree, which none of us will ever do so) is the practical phase~that's why there is so many divisions among even God's children.

Of course, Arthur Pink. So you didn't create them, Arthur Pink did. That is not much help, to me at least. I do think in what Pink (and you) have done is to mix up and confuse God's plan of salvation for the world at large with the actual events considered in God's actions in carrying out His plan of salvation for the individual. While both are part of the overall discussion of salvation, they are nevertheless distinct. Failure to note and hold to that distinction gives rise to serious blurring of soteriology, generally.

There is in the life of the individual a time when they are lost sinners and, for the one who will receive the gift of eternal life in heaven, a time when they are saints. Those two times are distinctly divided and should not be either ignored or confused. What God did to provide for the salvation of His elect, however you want to define elect, should not be mixed up with what God did in the application of that provision to any given individual.

 

[Arial]

Of course, Arthur Pink. So you didn't create them, Arthur Pink did.

Something to take note of. You begin your argument by misstating what @Red Baker said. This misstatement is bound to affect whatever follows. He did not say that Pink created them. He said they were in the scriptures and Pink and others taught what was in the scriptures.

What God did to provide for the salvation of His elect, however you want to define elect, should not be mixed up with what God did in the application of that provision to any given individual

What God did to provide for the salvation of His elect ( which is the incarnation of the Son as Jesus, His perfect in righteousness life as one of us, and His substitutionary death on the cross)is exactly what is applied by God the Holy Spirit to the individual.

 

[JIM]

Something to take note of. You begin your argument by misstating what @Red Baker said. This misstatement is bound to affect whatever follows. He did not say that Pink created them. He said they were in the scriptures and Pink and others taught what was in the scriptures.

Oh, please. Who does not think that everything he believes theologically was not what was taught in the scriptures? That is the old and absolutely ridiculous come-back by the one who claims, "Your argument is not with me, it is with God".

What God did to provide for the salvation of His elect ( which is the incarnation of the Son as Jesus, His perfect in righteousness life as one of us, and His substitutionary death on the cross)is exactly what is applied by God the Holy Spirit to the individual.

No, that is not strictly true. If that were the case, then given your view of elect, the elect would not come into the world totally depraved as you say. One cannot be totally depraved and yet saved (a child of God) at the same point in time in his life. That is, there is a time in the life of the individual when God applies to the individual what He did to provide for that salvation. The death of Christ on the cross clearly was a part of God's plan for the salvation of the individual, but that was not applied to the individual until sometime in the individual's life.

 

[Arial]

No, that is not strictly true. If that were the case, then given your view of elect, the elect would not come into the world totally depraved as you say.

Yes they would. We are all born in Adam. (The fact that you do not believe in original sin or the doctrines that are in Total Depravity, does not change my belief into your perception of my belief.)

One cannot be totally depraved and yet saved (a child of God) at the same point in time in his life. That is, there is a time in the life of the individual when God applies to the individual what He did to provide for that salvation. The death of Christ on the cross clearly was a part of God's plan for the salvation of the individual, but that was not applied to the individual until sometime in the individual's life.

I do not understand why you think I believe differently than that. I have never said differently and Reformed theology does not teach differently. The divide in your belief and that of Reformed is not on that point. It is in the interpretation of regeneration and the order of salvation.

 

[Mr GLee]

No, that is not strictly true. If that were the case, then given your view of elect, the elect would not come into the world totally depraved as you say. One cannot be totally depraved and yet saved (a child of God) at the same point in time in his life. That is, there is a time in the life of the individual when God applies to the individual what He did to provide for that salvation. The death of Christ on the cross clearly was a part of God's plan for the salvation of the individual, but that was not applied to the individual until sometime in the individual's life.

I would offer. The identity of the elect in whom the living word informs. It would be impossible to deceive . This is seeing they alone are empowered by the Father to both hear and obey the last loving commandment. Do not add or subtract from sola scriptura with the oral traditons of dying mankind Philippians 2 seems to indicate the key. Both

Philippians 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputing

Protecting the integrity of the one author of faith . . . Christ's Labor of Love. "let there be" and the new creation "His perfect bride the church".

He promised to defend her from thorns in the flesh, the judgment of men according to the letter of the law death .

He I beleive will not forget the good works we miraculously can offer towards the faithful power of Christ, yoked with His name.

It would seem that is what Hebrew is informing.

Hebrews 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

 

[JIM]

Yes they would. We are all born in Adam. (The fact that you do not believe in original sin or the doctrines that are in Total Depravity, does not change my belief into your perception of my belief.)

I do not understand why you think I believe differently than that. I have never said differently and Reformed theology does not teach differently. The divide in your belief and that of Reformed is not on that point. It is in the interpretation of regeneration and the order of salvation.

What I was referring to is what it means to be saved. And I was referring specifically to Red's definition of what saved means, which he said came from Pink. What both Red and Pink suggested that the word "saved" as used in scripture includes God's plan. I agree that in any discussion of salvation we need to include, at least implicitly, God's plan for salvation. However, in speaking of an individual being saved, the actual occasion of the individual being saved, is not the same as the occasion of God's planning for salvation or the death of Christ in implementing the actual basis for that salvation.

As individuals, we were not saved when God actually planned salvation from eternity or when Jesus died on the cross. Thus in Red's reply #144 where he declared that "Paul said he was saved before the world began (2nd Tim 1:9)", that is not true. Neither we nor Paul were saved before the world began. God's plan was established before the world began, but that is not when we were saved. And when Red said in that reply that Paul said he was saved "when Jesus came into the world (Ist Tim 1:15)", that is not true either. Paul didn't say that in that passage.

Thus what Red said about the meaning of the word "saved" having five meanings characterized as phases such as the "eternal phase" and the "legal phase" is simply not true.

Now then, I have read in a number of articles by Reformed Theology proponents which echo much of what Red said there, Pink being one of them. It is simply not true.

 

[Alive]

For sake of time let me give this link to consider. Jonathan and I have been friends for almost forty years at at one time worshipped together.

Every Word of God

Every Word of God A Treasure Chest of One-Word Arguments of the Bible Jesus and Paul argued doctrine from individual words of scripture, just as Moses had taught – man is to live by every word of God (Deut 8:3; Luke 4:4). They did not

letgodbetrue.com

He has several great articles to consider on this subject at the bottom of the page.

Thanks for replying. I understand the 'principle' under which the writer is laboring, but this doesn't answer my question of you.

 

[Arial]

As individuals, we were not saved when God actually planned salvation from eternity or when Jesus died on the cross. Thus in Red's reply #144 where he declared that "Paul said he was saved before the world began (2nd Tim 1:9)", that is not true. Neither we nor Paul were saved before the world began. God's plan was established before the world began, but that is not when we were saved. And when Red said in that reply that Paul said he was saved "when Jesus came into the world (Ist Tim 1:15)", that is not true either. Paul didn't say that in that passage.

I went back and read post #144 and that is not what @Red Baker said at all. As I see what he wrote, he is not giving a definition of "saved" but laying out what is so often neglected or unknown completely by many Christians. All that is involved in our salvation, first in God's eternal perspective and then as it unfolds in history and the life of individuals. That we are saved before the foundation of the world does not mean that we were actually in Christ before the foundation of the world but refers to the eternal, all knowing, all seeing, all powerful and absolute sovereignty of God concerning salvation and his knowledge of those who he would save, before creation. It was actually a pre-creation pact or covenant or agreement within the Godhead, as to the plan of redemption and the actions of each member in redemption. And if one believes in a Triune God, and they bother to think about it, that has to be true.

Thus what Red said about the meaning of the word "saved" having five meanings characterized as phases such as the "eternal phase" and the "legal phase" is simply not true.

See above. The legal phase refers to justification ----which is a legal declaration. One is not justified until they come to faith in Christ and his work.Through faith in Christ, a person is declared righteous because Jesus bore the penalty for their sins----therefore they can no longer be held against the one who is in Christ through faith. There is full reconciliation between God and the sinner. Before that can happen, something has to change within the sinner who is at enmity with God---something the sinner cannot do. It has to be done by God. Thus, Jesus tells us in John 3 "No one can SEE the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

He is born again (from being first born in Adam) into Christ, born into faith. I cannot see why anyone would object to that or be anything but grateful.

 

[JIM]

I went back and read post #144 and that is not what @Red Baker said at all. As I see what he wrote, he is not giving a definition of "saved" but laying out what is so often neglected or unknown completely by many Christians.

I don't know what you were reading, but Red begins his post with, "Let's ask Paul the question: when were you saved?" He then proceeds to define what he thinks is the meaning of the word "save". He posits that Paul describes himself being saved in five separate and distinct phases as follows:

"Paul said he was saved before the world began (2nd Tim 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (Ist Tim 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (Ist Tim 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Rom 13:11)."

I responded to that. So again, I don't know what you were reading.

 

[Red Baker]

Thanks for replying. I understand the 'principle' under which the writer is laboring, but this doesn't answer my question of you.

I am sorry, let me go back and look at you post again, and see If I can answer your question. I just got in and need some time, which I have very little of.

 

[Arial]

I don't know what you were reading, but Red begins his post with, "Let's ask Paul the question: when were you saved?" He then proceeds to define what he thinks is the meaning of the word "save". He posits that Paul describes himself being saved in five separate and distinct phases as follows:

"Paul said he was saved before the world began (2nd Tim 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (Ist Tim 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (Ist Tim 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Rom 13:11)."

I responded to that. So again, I don't know what you were reading.

2 Tim 1


8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, 9 who saved us and called us to[a] a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,[b] 10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher, 12 which is why I suffer as I do.

Titus 3:

4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1 Tim 1
But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.

Romans 13
11 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.

You simply do not understand what he was saying. If you read these scriptures alongside the things he is relating them to, maybe you will at least understand what is being said even if you don't agree with it. That would avoid misstating what someone is saying, and then debating from the misstatement.

 

[JIM]

You simply do not understand what he was saying. If you read these scriptures alongside the things he is relating them to, maybe you will at least understand what is being said even if you don't agree with it. That would avoid misstating what someone is saying, and then debating from the misstatement.

I just copied his words.

 

[Red Baker]

I went back and read post #144 and that is not what @Red Baker said at all. As I see what he wrote, he is not giving a definition of "saved" but laying out what is so often neglected or unknown completely by many Christians.

Agree

All that is involved in our salvation, first in God's eternal perspective and then as it unfolds in history and the life of individuals

Agree

That we are saved before the foundation of the world does not mean that we were actually in Christ before the foundation of the world but refers to the eternal, all knowing, all seeing, all powerful and absolute sovereignty of God concerning salvation and his knowledge of those who he would save, before creation

Again, salvation is broken down into phrases.. Consider John Gill on this subject.

John Gill: "Salvation may be considered, either in the contrivance of it from eternity (the eternal phase) , in the mind and counsel of God; and the designation of persons to it; or in the impetration of it (the legal phase) ; or in the application of it in effectual vocation by the Spirit of God (the vital phrase) ; or in the entire consummate enjoyment of it in heaven. In every of these views (phrases~RB) of it, good works are not necessary to it: Not to the contrivance of it, and designation of persons to it. God when in his infinite wisdom he drew the scheme of salvation in Christ, fixed upon him to be the author of it, and appointed men unto it by him, was not moved hereunto by any works of his creatures, or by any foresight of them; they were then no moving causes with God, no conditions of salvation fixed by him, nor were as the antecedent to the consequent; no, not in the prescience or fore-knowledge of God: As they could not go before, so they were not fore-viewed by God, as any cause, condition, motive, or reason of his choosing one to salvation, and not another; For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. (Rom. 9:11) Good works are the consequents and fruits of election to salvation, not antecedent to it. Nor are they necessary to the impetration or obtaining of it in time by Christ: These did not move Christ to engage in this work, they were no ways assisting to him in it; they did not help it forward, or in the least contribute to the performance of it, which was done entirely and completely without them.

Nor was it effected by him on condition of men's performing good works, nor were they necessary to it, as the antecedent to the consequent; they did not antecede or go before it, no, not in the divine mind or consideration, and in the view of Christ; for men were then considered, not as having done good works, but as evil amid wicked; for while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, and obtained eternal redemption by his blood; and when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son. (Rom. 5:8, 10) Good works do not go before, but follow after redeeming grace: Christ gave himself for his people, that he might redeem them from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Titus 2:14)

Nor are they necessary to time application of salvation by the Spirit of God in effectual calling, neither as causes or conditions, or as the antecedent to the consequent; they can be no moving causes to it, nor do they come into consideration in the divine mind, as the reason or condition of it; they are not the rule and measure of God's procedure in this affair; he saves and calls with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace. (2 Tim. 1:9) Besides, before regeneration, before effectual vocation, before a principle of grace is wrought in the soul, before the new-creation-work is formed, which is the initial part of salvation, or that branch of it which God's elect are first actually made partakers of in their own persons, there are properly speaking no good works done by them, or can be done by them; and therefore cannot possibly be antecedent to salvation viewed in this light, but must be consequent to it: We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. (Eph. 2:10) Nor, lastly, are they necessary to the consummate enjoyment of salvation in heaven, no, not as the antecedent to the consequent; that is, as an antecedent cause to a consequent effect, which is the easy, common and natural sense of the phrase; for who can hear of an antecedent to a consequent, unless by way of illation, but must at once conceive of that consequent as an effect depending upon the antecedent as a cause? Wherefore if good works are antecedent to glorification as a consequent, then glorification must be, and will be considered as an effect depending upon good works as its cause."

The one view/phrase not mentioned by John Gill is the practical phrase which he taught in other places, which the scriptures in the NT puts a lot of emphasis on in such scriptures as these:

1st Timothy 4:13-16~"Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

There ae several we could produce, but not now for sake of time.

In these scriptures there is a practical salvation that we all have a part in by doing certain things which Paul mentioned and I highlighted.

Timothy was a saved vitally and legally, yet in order to enjoy and be fruitful in our walk with God, we, and even great men such as Paul and Timothy ~ MUST do the five things mentioned in these verses, neglect them and one will not enjoy God's best for them, and will be useless in God's service, and easy to be overcome by our enemies.

That we are saved before the foundation of the world does not mean that we were actually in Christ before the foundation of the world but refers to the eternal, all knowing, all seeing, all powerful and absolute sovereignty of God concerning salvation and his knowledge of those who he would save, before creation. It was actually a pre-creation pact or covenant or agreement within the Godhead, as to the plan of redemption and the actions of each member in redemption. And if one believes in a Triune God, and they bother to think about it, that has to be true.

I believe we were actually in Christ according to Ephesians 1:4

Ephesians 1:4​

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

There has never been a time in God's mind/purpose taht we were not in Christ, that's why I hold to eternal justification, but another subject for another thread.

Ephesians 2:4-7~"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."

We have never been outside of Jesus Christ in the mind and eternal purposes of God. I know this could keep going, but enough for now.

 

[Carbon]

Well so much for the topic.

Next....

 

[Arial]

I believe we were actually in Christ according to Ephesians 1:4

In a sense, but the nuances defy my ability to articulate in print, though I glimpse them clearly in my mind. It goes to the incomprehensibleness of God. The limitations of a finite mind in grasping the infinite,

 

[Carbon]

I hope you Cedo Baptists really read and consider this.

Baptism.

The infants of believers are not to be forbidden this sacrament.
First, because if they are partakers of any grace, it is by virtue of the covenant of grace and so both the covenant and the first seal of the covenant belong to them.
Second, the covenant in which the faithful are now included is clearly the same as the covenant made with Abraham, Romans 4:11,
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Gal 3:7-9,
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
and this expressly applied to infants.
Third, the covenant as now administered to believers brings greater and fuller consolation than it once could, before the coming of Christ. But if it pertained only to them and not to their infants, the grace of God and their consolation would be narrower and more contracted after Christ's appearing than before.
Forth, Baptism supplants circumcision, Col 2:11-12,
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
It belongs as much to the children of believers as circumcision once did.
Fifth, in the very beginning of regeneration, whereof baptism is a seal, man is merely passive. Therefore, no outward action is required of a man when he is baptized or circumcised (unlike other sacraments); but only a passive receiving. Infants are, therefore, as capable of participation in this sacrament, so far as its chief benefit is concerned, as adults.

Faith and repentance no more constitute the covenant of God now than in the time of Abraham, who was the father of the faithful. Therefore, the lack of these ought not prevent infants from being baptized any more that it prevented them from being circumcized then.
The sign of the sacrament is water, not in itself but cleansing the unclean by immersing or sprinkling. Water was chosen because nothing in common use more fitly represents the spiritual washing performed by the blood or the death of Christ, nor is the sprinkling or application of the blood of Christ more fitly expressed by anything. For since Christ's death, there should be no use of natural blood in holy things.

The Lord's supper is the sacrament of nourishment and growth for the faithful in Christ. It should, therefore, be administered to them often. But the supper is to be administered only to those who are visibly capable of nourishment and growth in the church. Therefore, it is to be given not to infants, but only to adults.

Because the fullest and most perfect nourishment is sealed in Christ, no single, simple sigh of nourishing is to be used but a double kind - bread and wine, such as the body requires for its nourishment.
Those who take away either of these signs from the faithful in the administration of the Supper take away from the wisdom of God, mutilate the institution of Christ, and grievously lesson or take away the consolation of the faithful.

William Ames