Christian Baptism, does it include infants?

[Red Baker]

The knowledge of Greek, Hebrew and English are all human learning of equal excellency, necessity, and use for the translation and reading of the Bible; and as without the knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, the Bible could not be translated into English, so he that translated the Bible into English, could not have done it without the knowledge of the English tongue; therefore there is the same use and help and necessity of the English tongue as of the Greek or Hebrew tongue; so there is the same to be said for the French and Dutch tongue, and all other tongues and therefore why the Greek and Hebrew tongues should be of any more use and excellency than other tongues, there is no reason to be given for it. As Aaron the Priest set up the golden calf it was called a god and Aaron made Proclamation, Exod.32:4-8, &c., and the people idolized it and danced about it, so the Priests have set up Greek and Hebrew as a god, and the people rejoice exceedingly in it, for they idolize it and fall down and worship it, because the Priest have made a Proclamation for it and commended it for such a rare thing to help them to the knowledge of the mind of God. A golden business by custom is turned into necessity and it is in such an esteem as they do idolize it and worship it, as they did the calf. And because some of the Army see this Idolatry, the Presbyter is not pleased. Instead of allowing some errors, as we fear some among you endeavour a universal toleration of all Religions, it seems some errors may be allowed. But do the Scriptures allow it, or are you willing to allow of a few? As they endeavour for toleration for all apostates; then you shall have toleration, but that will not content you, though its doubted to allow your Religion openly, we see your principal is that you would have none tolerated but your selves, will not you be of the true Religion, unless ye be forced to it, or are you willing to be of a false. Religion, and to think it will be a sufficient excuse for you to say you are compelled to it or do you love to see the bodies of others tortured, and their estates ruined, because they are not of your Religion. “Instead of preserving the purity of Religion and the worship of God, we fear you are opening the door to desperate and damnable errors and heresies against the truth of God.” And so for fear of letting in of errors we must keep out the truth? It is better to let in twenty errors, than to keep out one truth, for truth is more good than evil is evil. It is better to suffer errors than to persecute the truth, and the Professors of it, for always by such fine pretenses and glosses we have been deprived of our liberty. We have fought for it as our treasure; persons and friends, and the blood of the brethren were laid down to be freed from the cruel Task-masters of Egypt, the Bishops and Presbyters yoke. Hear you not the wife say, my husband lost his life for the freedom of the people of God. Many children may truly say, my father spent his estate and laid down his life for my liberty, and the people of God. The Parliament and Army promised us the liberty, and for this they fought, if the Army had not provided for our liberties herein, they had not given us that which their consciences tell them is our due, they had deceived us, the equity of the thing pleads for us, many of the chief of them had never been soldiers, but to break asunder this iron yoke that was upon our necks and the Kingdoms."

I would now get back to the subject of this thread, but you are more than welcome to take this to another thread if you desire to do so.

 

[JIM]

Out of curiosity: why is it that without exception in all my experience, and observing the same experience I see others of Reformed theology having, in debates on the things of God; out of curiosity, why is it that those opposed to it always debate in this manner? Using their opinions of the theology as the basis for making claims against the actual theology, and resort to demeaning both the theology and the ones who are trying to have an expositional debate on the teachings in it?

And you think that you and most others of the Reformed Theology are any different? You also only have opinions of theology. When you speak of election, it is only your opinion of what it means. When you speak of regeneration, it is only your opinion of what it means. When you speak of grace, it is only your opinion of what it means. When you speak of the sovereignty of God, it is only your opinion of what that means. Please do not castigate me for the very thing that you are guilty of. Your guilt in that is every bit as much as you accuse me of.

 

[Alive]

Brother, I do not waste time of knowing such things, it serves no purpose. The KJV came to us (the English speaking people of this world) shortly after the printing press was invented, and our forefathers laid down their life base on its teaching. It is the only copy of the scriptures in English that is not copyrighted, and never will be! All other versions are here for : $$$$$$ and to pervert the teachings in our KJV.

The following was written in 1650 by Samuel Richardson a Particular Baptist in England.

"The Priests say that we know not the original, and our Bibles are not rightly translated, nor cannot be pronounced according to the original; besides in translations there are errors, for no translation is simply authentical, and the undoubted Word of God. We demand of you, answer if you can; as to how know you that your Hebrew and Greek copies are true copies? Is it not possible for any to write contrary to their copy, if copies may be printed false, they may be written false, the art of Printing is not above 350 years old. Can you produce the first original copy, or any of those the Apostles wrote? If not, the cause is the same and you know the original no more than those that know not Greek or Hebrew? If you may depend upon the faithfulness of the Writer and Printer of your Copies, why not others upon those that did it upon oath? Doctor Fulke in his confutation of the Rheims Testament justifieth the English Translation of the Bible, in his “New Testament Confutation,” printed in 1589. But we receive not the truth by tradition. I would know of you that are so for Hebrew and Greek, &c., if the knowledge of the tongues be sufficient to teach those that have those tongues the mind of the Spirit of God in the Scriptures or no? If yea, then all that know these tongues know the mind of God; if no, then it is but an insufficient help, and what is an insufficient help worth more than nothing. The knowledge of Greek and Hebrew is a help to read a Greek and Hebrew Bible, because else they cannot read them. So the knowledge of the English tongue is of necessity to read the English Bible. The cause is the same; but the understanding the English tongue, and reading it in the Bible cannot give them to understand, the meaning of it no more than the knowledge of the tongues Greek and Hebrew though it helps them to read the Bible in those tongues, yet is not able to give them to understand the meaning of it. That this is so, some of them, who know the tongues confess; for Apollo was a learned man, he saw the first copies of the Bible, and if that could have caused him to know the mind of God what need had he to learn of Aquila a tradesman {one of the laity as the Priests use to say} and Priscilla his wife the mind of God as he did. Acts.18:26. Also what is the reason that those that know the tongues cannot agree among themselves? What is the mind of God in his Word, that some of you in your expositions are as contrary to each other as light is to darkness; the natural man cannot perceive the things that be of God; a natural man may be, and some are learned men it’s confessed; some of the Jesuits are good Scholars, &c., for they know the tongues, &c.; then it will follow a man may be such a learned man and yet cannot understand nor perceive the things of God. Nicodemus was a great scholar and teacher in Israel yet how simple was he concerning the meaning of Christ’s words. Tell me then what a help their human learning is to them in spiritual knowledge in the things of the Spirit. The Word saith that he reveals to us the deep things of God by his Spirit, I Cor.2:10; he saith not by Greek and Hebrew. If our translation be true then we can tell the meaning of it as well as you; if it be not true tell me what is that Preaching worth that is proved by a false translation, and if we must believe contrary to our translation because you say so, what is this but an implicit faith and human? And seeing you so differ among yourselves about the meaning of the word or the mind of God in it, tell me, how I may know which of you I am to believe? Also you confess that one word {in the ‘original’} could bear nine or ten divers significations; how know you which of them is the mind of God in that place, unless he reveal it to you? And if God please he can reveal it to a simple man, and God doth do so, and this is that for which Christ thanks his Father, because he hath hid these things from the wise and the learned, and revealed it unto babes, “the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee; and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed; and the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee; and he saith, I am not learned.” “For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes; the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.” Isa.29:10-12. Neither of them can read it, both put it off for they cannot understand it, the unlearned thinks as he hath been taught, that if he were learned in Greek and Hebrew he could understand it; but the former who was such a learned man could not do it, it is hid from the learned; for it’s not in being learned, nor in not being learned. What then will some say, it is because God hath not revealed it to them therefore they do not know it. The Lord saith that none can know the things of God, but he to whom the Spirit will reveal them. “But as it is written, eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit, for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him, even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? 378 But we have the mind of Christ.” I Cor.2:9-16. “I have more understanding than all my teachers, for thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.” Psal.119:99-100.

I must break this up into another short post.

Are you a King James Only advocate.

 

[Carbon]

Brother, I do not waste time of knowing such things, it serves no purpose. The KJV came to us (the English speaking people of this world) shortly after the printing press was invented, and our forefathers laid down their life base on its teaching. It is the only copy of the scriptures in English that is not copyrighted, and never will be! All other versions are here for : $$$$$$ and to pervert the teachings in our KJV.

The following was written in 1650 by Samuel Richardson a Particular Baptist in England.

"The Priests say that we know not the original, and our Bibles are not rightly translated, nor cannot be pronounced according to the original; besides in translations there are errors, for no translation is simply authentical, and the undoubted Word of God. We demand of you, answer if you can; as to how know you that your Hebrew and Greek copies are true copies? Is it not possible for any to write contrary to their copy, if copies may be printed false, they may be written false, the art of Printing is not above 350 years old. Can you produce the first original copy, or any of those the Apostles wrote? If not, the cause is the same and you know the original no more than those that know not Greek or Hebrew? If you may depend upon the faithfulness of the Writer and Printer of your Copies, why not others upon those that did it upon oath? Doctor Fulke in his confutation of the Rheims Testament justifieth the English Translation of the Bible, in his “New Testament Confutation,” printed in 1589. But we receive not the truth by tradition. I would know of you that are so for Hebrew and Greek, &c., if the knowledge of the tongues be sufficient to teach those that have those tongues the mind of the Spirit of God in the Scriptures or no? If yea, then all that know these tongues know the mind of God; if no, then it is but an insufficient help, and what is an insufficient help worth more than nothing. The knowledge of Greek and Hebrew is a help to read a Greek and Hebrew Bible, because else they cannot read them. So the knowledge of the English tongue is of necessity to read the English Bible. The cause is the same; but the understanding the English tongue, and reading it in the Bible cannot give them to understand, the meaning of it no more than the knowledge of the tongues Greek and Hebrew though it helps them to read the Bible in those tongues, yet is not able to give them to understand the meaning of it. That this is so, some of them, who know the tongues confess; for Apollo was a learned man, he saw the first copies of the Bible, and if that could have caused him to know the mind of God what need had he to learn of Aquila a tradesman {one of the laity as the Priests use to say} and Priscilla his wife the mind of God as he did. Acts.18:26. Also what is the reason that those that know the tongues cannot agree among themselves? What is the mind of God in his Word, that some of you in your expositions are as contrary to each other as light is to darkness; the natural man cannot perceive the things that be of God; a natural man may be, and some are learned men it’s confessed; some of the Jesuits are good Scholars, &c., for they know the tongues, &c.; then it will follow a man may be such a learned man and yet cannot understand nor perceive the things of God. Nicodemus was a great scholar and teacher in Israel yet how simple was he concerning the meaning of Christ’s words. Tell me then what a help their human learning is to them in spiritual knowledge in the things of the Spirit. The Word saith that he reveals to us the deep things of God by his Spirit, I Cor.2:10; he saith not by Greek and Hebrew. If our translation be true then we can tell the meaning of it as well as you; if it be not true tell me what is that Preaching worth that is proved by a false translation, and if we must believe contrary to our translation because you say so, what is this but an implicit faith and human? And seeing you so differ among yourselves about the meaning of the word or the mind of God in it, tell me, how I may know which of you I am to believe? Also you confess that one word {in the ‘original’} could bear nine or ten divers significations; how know you which of them is the mind of God in that place, unless he reveal it to you? And if God please he can reveal it to a simple man, and God doth do so, and this is that for which Christ thanks his Father, because he hath hid these things from the wise and the learned, and revealed it unto babes, “the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee; and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed; and the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee; and he saith, I am not learned.” “For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes; the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.” Isa.29:10-12. Neither of them can read it, both put it off for they cannot understand it, the unlearned thinks as he hath been taught, that if he were learned in Greek and Hebrew he could understand it; but the former who was such a learned man could not do it, it is hid from the learned; for it’s not in being learned, nor in not being learned. What then will some say, it is because God hath not revealed it to them therefore they do not know it. The Lord saith that none can know the things of God, but he to whom the Spirit will reveal them. “But as it is written, eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit, for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him, even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? 378 But we have the mind of Christ.” I Cor.2:9-16. “I have more understanding than all my teachers, for thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.” Psal.119:99-100.

I must break this up into another short post.

Are you a king James only person?

 

[Red Baker]

Are you a King James Only advocate.

Alive, let me say this, I use only the KJV, since I speak English. I have read behind many of the Reformers and preachers before 1611 and whatever they had at the time, and you would think they were preaching straight out of the KJV.

I refuse to judge others who do not believe as I do on this issue, yet I will not be influenced by even great men in the faith by them going to what they think is the originals to teach what they are teaching.

I do not use this as a measuring stick concerning one's spirituality, as some may. Neither would I listen to men who mocks the KJV and those who put their faith only in the KJV.

I truly very seldom address this issue, but would if put into a corner; also, I would, if I see the need to do so.

 

[Alive]

Alive, let me say this, I use only the KJV, since I speak English. I have read behind many of the Reformers and preachers before 1611 and whatever they had at the time, and you would think they were preaching straight out of the KJV.

I refuse to judge others who do not believe as I do on this issue, yet I will not be influenced by even great men in the faith by them going to what they think is the originals to teach what they are teaching.

I do not use this as a measuring stick concerning one's spirituality, as some may. Neither would I listen to men who mocks the KJV and those who put their faith only in the KJV.

I truly very seldom address this issue, but would if put into a corner; also, I would, if I see the need to do so.

Fair enough.
You mention what ‘they’ are teaching. Is there some teaching you are mindful of that results from another translation?
I will be back in a couple hours or so, to read any response.

 

[Mr GLee]

Who said it is?

Many claim what they call" sign gifts" like laying on of hands, falling backward or H20 baptism.. Called strange fire proving a person has added to the living word of God .

No sign as a gift to wonder after was given .(Charismatic's ) Jesus the prophet prophesied "its evil generation that does seek after one"

Believers have prophecy till the end of time under the Sun .

Satan the King of lying signs to wonder after seems to be working over time today the author of gender confusion/ dyslexia. Tampons in boys restrooms Looney toons , The identity theft conquest of Satan the Legion the god of this world

I would think there is not one thing we could do outwardly to prove one is born again inwardly . If there was why not make the evidence reading a Bible or assembling togethter .

I would think we have the evidence of Christ's faithfulness, the unseen eternal things, as it is written (sola scriptura)

The Lord has freely given us the proper mixing recipe tool needed to rightly divide the parables

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

No mixing of the two . . no gospel rest It remains a unsolved mystery

Hebrews 4King James VersionLet us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

 

[Arial]

And you think that you and most others of the Reformed Theology are any different? You also only have opinions of theology. When you speak of election, it is only your opinion of what it means. When you speak of regeneration, it is only your opinion of what it means. When you speak of grace, it is only your opinion of what it means. When you speak of the sovereignty of God, it is only your opinion of what that means. Please do not castigate me for the very thing that you are guilty of. Your guilt in that is every bit as much as you accuse me of.

Did I not politely ask you to do better after pointing out the very things you do again here?

 

[JIM]

Well, my friend, your beliefs point to Pelagianism. Sorry

No need to be sorry. Your ignorance of my beliefs may not necessarily your fault.

 

[JIM]

Did I not politely ask you to do better after pointing out the very things you do again here?

What you were complaining about me in post #162 is, I believe, precisely what Carbon did in post #116 in this topic.

 

[Red Baker]

Faith is the biblical evidence given by the Holy Ghost more than once, as the only means whereby one can have biblical assurance that they are no longer under the condemnation of God's law. Let me make this abundantly clear: faith is the evidence of being born again~it is not the means thereof, but only an evidence. The only means under heaven whereby one is justified freely by the grace of God, is the life and death of the Holy Son of God~there can be no other means, PERIOD! If so, then righteousness would have been by the law, and not by the life and death of God's only begotten Son. The word of the Living God shouts this message loud and clear, but, only those people who have been blessed of God, are able to hear and understand this glorious free shouts of GRACE, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus the Lord. Romans 3:21-24, etc.

What is more within this holy scripture, (Mark 16:16) you ask? Those who have faith are free from condemnation, and those who do not believe are under the condemnation of God's law. Among those who have believed and who have been baptized into the religion of Jesus Christ, have a salvation over and above those who just believed and were never baptized, for whatever reason. This salvation is practical in nature, and has nothing to do with our sins being forgiven. That part was totally fulfilled by Jesus Christ ALONE!

Example: The thief on the cross, believed, yet was never baptized into the religion of Jesus Christ, thereby, he never experience and had a knowledge of all that Christ's death accomplished for him. Every person who has been baptized properly by immersion into Jesus' death, should have a more complete knowledge of the doctrine of grace, and the forgiveness of their sins through Christ, if they have been instructed properly in the doctrines of the NT concerning Jesus Christ.

NT believers have a more complete understanding than most all OT saints concerning the life and death of Jesus Christ~baptism being one of the main doctrines instructing them into this blessed knowledge.

Consider: The only reason why Paul re-baptized those in Acts 19:1-7~These men had only received John's baptism after Pentecost, thereby, they had a very incomplete knowledge of many NT doctrines concerning the religion of Jesus Christ, and the benefits of understanding those doctrines.

Baptism has not one thing to do with our sins being forgiven in a legal sense, as men desire it to be. It is only a desire on their part, it is far from being the truth. Christ has become no effect unto such people, whether they understand this or not.

Galatians 5:4

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

Or, from the doctrine of God's free grace.

 

[Red Baker]

I did not go into deep details of Mark 16:16, but did give a sound biblical sense to the word saved that so many stumble over, and that leads them to a false conclusion of the words spoken of by Jesus

Now as far as when God regenerates a person, can easily be proven from the scriptures. A infant in his mother's womb can be quicken to spiritual life by God's Spirit, before they ever see the light of day. John the Baptist is a example of this. Luke one. Now, as far as when they come to a knowledge of the truth, were they can discerned spiritual truths, and their need to turn from all sins, and follow Jesus Christ, will depend a few scriptural factors.

It may depend upon a true saint explaining spiritual truths to a person who has already been quicken by God. One cannot have faith (which is the evidence of one quicken, until he hears the gospel~Romans 10:13 This may happen at a young age~2 King 5:2-4

It may depend upon the person themselves having the abilities and temperament to reason and understand; some mature much earlier than others. Regeneration is all of God~but conversion to the truth is by flesh and blood and the will of men working together~NOT SO with a person being born of God. John 1:13

Some of the elect are never converted to the truth, and as far as that goes, all are converted to different degrees of understanding and spirituality. 1 John 2:12-14~I very seldom find many on the very same level of conversion, it is indeed rare.

Personally, I was twenty six when I first came to Christ, and I am still learning at the feet of Jesus, and enjoying it immensely, yet falling far short of where I should and could be.

I would never rush children to make a commitment, for they will not spoil if they are truly children of God~We do indeed command them to believe and follow the scriptures, but as far as getting a confession out of them, it could lead them down the road to deception, thinking all is well, base upon that one time confession. No where in the NT do we see children being baptized, only adults. That within itself does not prove that none were not, but does prove that if it happened, it was extremely rare. We must be honest with others and our own selves. It's hard to accept something, if we desire to believe otherwise, or, that we have been taught otherwise, yet we must live and teach by God's oracles, not what our hearts want to believe.

 

[Carbon]

No need to be sorry. Your ignorance of my beliefs may not necessarily your fault.

Okay.

Thanks

 

[JIM]

Let me establish this truth: We establish the truth by clear teaching, and then we reconcile all "opposing" verses to it. Until we reconcile all the word of God on any subject, we cannot be sure of our doctrine. If a great change in presuppositions were needed for us to hold the truth, we trust the living God to convict and guide us, and we deal fairly with every text, by holy rules. God owns all truth, and He gives it by His grace to those He chooses. Until you reconcile all verses, there may be one or more that overthrow your premises!

When approaching the word of God, hermeneutics in its simplest form is a two-step process. You first prove what a verse cannot mean by the rest of the Bible, and "only then" do you begin the process of considering the other rules of interpretation to find its positive sense.

Let us consider the two most important points yet mention: (1) Eternal life is an "unconditional gift" by God's grace and will in Jesus Christ for the elect only.

1. Man is unable to obey or please God~(Ps 14:1-3; Rom 3:9-18; 8:7-8; Eph 2:1; Gal 5:17).

2. God denies man's will or works~(John 1:13; 3:8; Rom 9:15-16; Eph 1:5,11; Titus 3:5).

3. Faith and works are the result of salvation~ (Eph 2:10; Phil 2:12-13; Ist John 3:7; 5:1,4).

4. Jesus Christ saves the elect by Himself~(John 19:30; Rom 5:19; Heb 1:3; 9:15; Ist Pet 1:2).

5. The gospel and ordinances do not give life~(Ist Cor 1:24; Gal 3:21; Eph 4:12; 2nd Tim 1:10).

6. Unconditional salvation is illustrated~(Luke 1:15; Acts 10:34-35)

The New Testament speaks of salvation in five distinct phases that must be clearly divided.

1. The eternal phase is God's election~(John 6:38-39; Rom 8:29-39; Eph 1:3-12; 2nd Tim 1:9).

2. The legal phase is Christ's death~(Romans 3:24-26; 5:14-19; 2nd Cor 5:21; Heb 2:14-17).

3. The vital phase is the Spirit's regeneration~(John 3:6-8; Ephesians 2:1-6; Titus 3:5)

4. The practical phase is gospel conversion~(Phil 2:12; Jas 2:14-26; 5:19-20; 2nd Pet 1:5-11).

5. The final phase is glorification at the resurrection~(John 5:28-29; Romans 8:23,29-30; Ist Peter 1:5)

This last section is the key that unlocks the biblical sense of Mark 16:16

Good morning Red, I am familiar with your thinking on these different phases. As you know, I think they are but artificial constructs that you have created. I don't recall actually discussing them with you in the past, and I am not particularly interested in doing that here. Of these five phases is there a standard order for these? That is, I assume, that your phase 5 follows phase 4 which follows phase 3, etc. Is that what you are proposing? If so, could one perhaps die following phase 3 without ever reaching phase 4 or phase 5? And where in this grouping of phases does one receive the forgiveness of his sins?

 

[Red Baker]

Romans 6:3​

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”

Galatians 3:27​

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

When we were baptized, we were baptized into the religion of Jesus Christ, and were thereby, baptized into his death. That being said, I will add this: before the foundation of this world, we were chosen IN CHRIST by the election of GRACE; and I will add this: When Jesus lived in this world, we lived in him, when he died, we died with him; and when he was resurrected, we arose WITH HIM, all this before any of us were ever born! These truths, should testify to any who can see and hear the voices of the prophets and apostles, that water baptism, has no part in our sins being legally remitted, and God's condemnation lifted from us. Romans 5:12-21; and Ephesians 2:5,6; Colossians 2:12,13

What is true about us, is also true about all that went before us and those who will come after us. OT saints did not have baptism, because Christ had not yet come and establish his kingdom and his religion. Baptism identifies us as one with Jesus Christ's true religion, as the only religion acceptable unto God to take away the sins of fallen man~ along with many others truths it conveys. Baptism would have not had any meaning to the OT saints, as they had very little knowledge of the truth of the gospel under the NT, as NT saints do. They had the doctrine of circumcision, that separated them from other nations and their religion. Question: "What profit did circumcision serve Israel, as far a removing their sins legally? None.

 

[Red Baker]

Good morning Red, I am familiar with your thinking on these different phases. As you know, I think they are but artificial constructs that you have created. I don't recall actually discussing them with you in the past, and I am not particularly interested in doing that here. Of these five phases is there a standard order for these? That is, I assume, that your phase 5 follows phase 4 which follows phase 3, etc. Is that what you are proposing? If so, could one perhaps die following phase 3 without ever reaching phase 4 or phase 5? And where in this grouping of phases does one receive the forgiveness of his sins?

Good morning Jim~Actually, I never created them, they are in the scriptures and other men of God taught them in the past~John Gill, A. W. Pink. I used these two, because they actually lay it out, but others more or less taught the same, even you do, if you stop and think.

See here: A Fourfold Salvation

Concerning one following the other~they do. The only one some may never enjoy (or least to its fullest degree, which none of us will ever do so) is the practical phase~that's why there is so many divisions among even God's children.

 

[Red Baker]

Some have asked me in the past, why say we are baptized into the religion of Jesus Christ?

I used the word religion, just as Paul did toward the Jews. Galatians 1:13,14

The Church of God is the religion of Jesus Christ, that includes both Jews and Gentiles. James also used the word religion to pertain to what a man believes and practices. James 1:26,27

At water baptism, we put on Jesus Christ, and accept all that he believed and taught and become his ambassadors in this world, doing the same.

 

[Alive]

Some have asked me in the past, why say we are baptized into the religion of Jesus Christ?

I used the word religion, just as Paul did toward the Jews. Galatians 1:13,14

The Church of God is the religion of Jesus Christ, that includes both Jews and Gentiles. James also used the word religion to pertain to what a man believes and practices. James 1:26,27

Question number 2….;-)
Do you believe that not all of the elect regenerated in Christ will enter Christ’s Kingdom?

 

[Alive]

Btw…the first question. See post #166.

 

[Red Baker]

Question number 2….;-)
Do you believe that not all of the elect regenerated in Christ will enter Christ’s Kingdom?

Greetings Alive~at regeneration we are translated into the kingdom of God's dear Son.

Colossians 1:13​

“Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:”

All have been translated vitally into the everlasting kingdom of Jesus Christ, which will become a reality in the future.

Obviously, the kingdom of God is used in different senses in the scriptures, another subject for another day.

Question number 2….;-)
Do you believe that not all of the elect regenerated in Christ will enter Christ’s Kingdom?

A great topic to consider~start it, and I'll come.​