Christian Baptism, does it include infants?

[Alive]

Hey, it is not that long. And he writes much better than I. It answers your question. If it didn't reflect my conviction, I wouldn't have given you the reference.

I understand, but a forum is for sharing in written form each of our thoughts and beliefs.I needed to read your own words regarding what 'you' mean by using the term 'illumination'.
So, that I might share a thing or two.

 

[JIM]

Wrong.

Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him were saved before their water baptism.

You may think that, but the Bible does not say that. The "falling" and "pouring out" of the Holy Spirit upon those listening was not the indwelling Holy Spirit of all saints but rather the empowering Holy Spirit given to only a few. That is evident by the fact that they miraculously spoke in tongues. The empowering Holy Spirit is not an indication of salvation. It had happened to the occasional few throughout all of OT history and into the NT. It even happened to Balaam's ass.

 

[JIM]

I understand, but a forum is for sharing in written form each of our thoughts and beliefs.I needed to read your own words regarding what 'you' mean by using the term 'illumination'.
So, that I might share a thing or two.

Sounds to me like you don't really have a thing or two to share. That of course is entirely up to you.

 

[Alive]

Sounds to me like you don't really have a thing or two to share. That of course is entirely up to you.

I do--but I do not want to miss the mark and respond to something I have misunderstood...so I asked.

 

[Fred]

The "falling" and "pouring out" of the Holy Spirit upon those listening was not the indwelling Holy Spirit of all saints but rather the empowering Holy Spirit given to only a few.

Zero proof for that. See the following:

Acts 15:7-8
(7) After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
(8) And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us.

Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him were given (= sealed with) the Holy Spirit before their water baptism.

That is evident by the fact that they miraculously spoke in tongues.

According to 1 Corinthians 12:28, the gift of tongues is for those in the church.

It even happened to Balaam's ass.

Different covenant.

 

[Arial]

Where in the scriptures does it ever say that? Do you not understand that being brought to life is in the very act of God's saving? You can't have been brought to life and still be in your sins.

I dislike that when you respond to my posts, you do not respond to the whole post----everything I have said on the issue at hand, but just one small snippet. If the rest of my post were included in your response, the first and only question formed out of the snippet, would be answered by me.

They are saved by an act of grace (no one deserves it and can do nothing to merity it) through faith. It is this faith (in the person and work of Jesus) that justifies---reconciles them to God. The substitutionary work of Jesus is applied to them, (by the Holy Spirit, not by baptism) therefore their sins are forgiven. And the faith is not generated from within themselves, thereby meriting the new birth and meriting forgiveness, (making grace no longer grace but reward for a job well done). God is causal of all of it including faith.

That is following exactly Eph 2. Keeping in mind the subject is baptism. I merely laid the ground work for refuting your claim that baptism is regenerative (but also saying it is not causal.) So what you have decided to debate now with me, instead of what I was debating, is your unbelief in original sin and that all men are at enmity with God (if it is all men it has to be something about the nature of the man) through Adam and of their own will, live at enmity with him by sinning. I am not having that debate with you again.

So can you now please go back to the post you were responding to and deal with the baptism issue. It is post #76.

 

[Alive]

A few verses to consider on the subject of both prophesying and tongues.

1Cor. 14:5 (ESVS) Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

1Cor. 14:6 (ESVS) Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?

1Cor. 14:18 (ESVS) I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

1Cor. 14:21 (ESVS) In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” 22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

1Cor. 14:39 (ESVS) So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

 

[Red Baker]

It seems from his posts that maybe his answer is both yes and no, though I don't think he realizes that.

I just look over some of the latter posts~Jim believes the act of water baptism is when/where one's sin are forgiven. he does allow for some exceptions, but his position is: sins are forgiven during the act of being baptized in water for the very purpose of having one's sins washed away/forgiven.

I'm finished for today, the Lord willing I'll be back in morning.

Regeneration is through faith (John 5:24-25; Acts 2:38; 19:1-7; 22:16; Eph 2:8; Gal 3:25-27; Col 2:11-13). And as indicated in most of those passages and others, regeneration "occurs" in baptism.

 

[JIM]

I do--but I do not want to miss the mark and respond to something I have misunderstood...so I asked.

I can go with that.

 

[Arial]

I just look over some of the latter posts~Jim believes the act of water baptism is when/where one's sin are forgiven. he does allow for some exceptions, but his position is: sins are forgiven during the act of being baptized in water for the very purpose of having one's sins washed away/forgiven.

I'm finished for today, the Lord willing I'll be back in morning.

In which case one can be regenerated and saved and have faith but not yet forgiven. And if a person does not undergo the ritual of baptism say for years after they were regenerated and saved and have faith (which happened to be the case with me and it is with many, simply because of circumstances) their sins were not forgiven even though they had genuine fath.

 

[JIM]

They are brought to life----regeneration---so they are able and willing to believe---have faith. They are saved by an act of grace (no one deserves it and can do nothing to merity it) through faith. It is this faith (in the person and work of Jesus) that justifies---reconciles them to God. The substitutionary work of Jesus is applied to them, (by the Holy Spirit, not by baptism) therefore their sins are forgiven. And the faith is not generated from within themselves, thereby meriting the new birth and meriting forgiveness, (making grace no longer grace but reward for a job well done). God is causal of all of it including faith.

When you say

you have contradicted yourself. If baptism is not causal, then it cannot be


If that is the case, then baptism is causal of regeneration, not God. It cannot be both symbolic and the cause of regeneration. If it is all of God, and only he is causal, then the regeneration must come before everything else. And everything else other than the baptism must also be caused by God or we have things not caused by God, though you say only God is causal. Baptism is a sign of being in the new covenant community---a visible confession of faith and union with Christ.

God and only God can cause anyone to be saved. There is no other cause. Salvation is a promise that God has made to humanity that He will act upon with and for those who have met with the conditions laid down for it. Those conditions are succinctly presented in Mark 16:16. Baptism is not causal. Not even faith is causal. They are conditions. Believing, having faith, in God and being baptized are two of those conditions. Regeneration is simply one aspect of God's saving actions.

And backing up a bit in your post, faith is indeed generated from within ourselves. Believing in God is not really that different from believing in anything else. One first believes the information and data available is true. Then from that, one places his trust and confidence in what he believes is true. That is the message of Romans 10.

I believe in gravity, not just something that pulls me toward the earth. I believe in gravity to be a controlling factor in the interactions between bodies of mass throughout the entire universe. I have no way to prove that. First I know that things tend to be apparently pulled toward the earth. There is actual data, from moon landings, to show that it works on the moon just like it does here on the earth. There is massive amounts of data and information to show that it works the same for the planets in this solar system as well as in other parts of the Milky Way and the rest of the universe. I am convinced in the truth of gravity. I trust that it will function as described. I believe in gravity. I have faith in gravity.

In much the same way, given the information and data supplied in the Bible, I believe that it is true. Not only do I believe it is true, I have placed my trust in God, the author of what is presented there. I have no other basis or reason for doing that.

Faith is not some sort of injected instinct as so many seem to think. One does not have faith and then hear the word of God. One hears (and/or reads) the word of God and by that believes and trusts that. That is faith. For some, like many and many that I know, it was not difficult to have faith, being raised in a good God-fearing Christian family. For others, that I also know, it can be difficult if not very, very difficult to come to believing in God. For some it takes hard work and many hours reading, studying and talking with others to finally come to faith.

 

[JIM]

In which case one can be regenerated and saved and have faith but not yet forgiven. And if a person does not undergo the ritual of baptism say for years after they were regenerated and saved and have faith (which happened to be the case with me and it is with many, simply because of circumstances) their sins were not forgiven even though they had genuine fath.

One cannot be saved and still be unforgiven. That is an oxymoron. Forgiveness is integral to salvation. That is true in both the Old and New Covenants. Now whether God might save someone who had not been baptized is a separate issue altogether. But following the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the establishment of His church under the new covenant, there is no statement from God that He will do that. What we have is His promise saying that whosoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

Personally, for some dear friends and family, I sincerely hope that God will be generous and gracious toward them even though they rejected baptism.

God willing, I will be back in the morning.

 

[Arial]

One cannot be saved and still be unforgiven. That is an oxymoron. Forgiveness is integral to salvation. That is true in both the Old and New Covenants. Now whether God might save someone who had not been baptized is a separate issue altogether. But following the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the establishment of His church under the new covenant, there is no statement from God that He will do that. What we have is His promise saying that whosoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

Personally, for some dear friends and family, I sincerely hope that God will be generous and gracious toward them even though they rejected baptism.

God willing, I will be back in the morning.

Then why do you say this:

Thus, all three of the references you listed clearly present baptism as conditionals to being saved, not the first act of Christian obedience.

That forgiveness is received in baptism.

You contradict yourself all over the place and on many different subjects. And when it is pointed out and you are asked to show how it is not a contradiction or to clarify, you simply ignore it.

 

[Arial]

for those who have met with the conditions laid down for it.

Then it isn't by grace.

Those conditions are succinctly presented in Mark 16:16. Baptism is not causal. Not even faith is causal. They are conditions. Believing, having faith, in God and being baptized are two of those conditions. Regeneration is simply one aspect of God's saving actions.

Those are only conditions if God is not causal. Those things then would be things that man must do before God saves them rather than things they do because God saves them. If conditions must be met, then it is the conditions being met that are casual. You contradict yourself again. And you contradict the Bible that says we are saved through faith.

And backing up a bit in your post, faith is indeed generated from within ourselves. Believing in God is not really that different from believing in anything else. One first believes the information and data available is true. Then from that, one places his trust and confidence in what he believes is true. That is the message of Romans 10.

We have been over all that before. If the necessary faith is generated from us, then faith is causal, not God. And
there is no grace involved.

I believe in gravity, not just something that pulls me toward the earth. I believe in gravity to be a controlling factor in the interactions between bodies of mass throughout the entire universe. I have no way to prove that. First I know that things tend to be apparently pulled toward the earth. There is actual data, from moon landings, to show that it works on the moon just like it does here on the earth. There is massive amounts of data and information to show that it works the same for the planets in this solar system as well as in other parts of the Milky Way and the rest of the universe. I am convinced in the truth of gravity. I trust that it will function as described. I believe in gravity. I have faith in gravity.

In much the same way, given the information and data supplied in the Bible, I believe that it is true. Not only do I believe it is true, I have placed my trust in God, the author of what is presented there. I have no other basis or reason for doing that.

A discussion already had.

Faith is not some sort of injected instinct as so many seem to think.

I doubt anyone thinks that.

One does not have faith and then hear the word of God.

No one says that either.

One hears (and/or reads) the word of God and by that believes and trusts that. That is faith.

No one has said otherwise.

For some, like many and many that I know, it was not difficult to have faith, being raised in a good God-fearing Christian family.

Because they have heard it all along. It was being lived. But there are also many in that same situation who never believe it. Did you just have better parents, a better upbringing? Were you just smarter and wiser than those who reject what they grew up with. Did God have nothing to do with it? Perhaps your lack of experience outside the bubble has also left you unable to see the the realities that the Bible puts forth concerning mans fallen nature and his inability without regeneration to see and understand the things of God? Maybe you have grown comfortable and complacent?

For others, that I also know, it can be difficult if not very, very difficult to come to believing in God. For some it takes hard work and many hours reading, studying and talking with others to finally come to faith.

It is in fact impossible. But of course that would not apply to one such as yourself. No amount of hard work and many hours reading and studying will do it unless God regenerates the heart and mind. He must open the deaf ears and open the blind eyes and remove the heart of stone and give a new heart that loves God instead of hates him. You simply lack experience. Those of us on the outside, who were born and raised and lived on the outside, we are the ones who recognize that power and personal love of God for us. We are the ones who recognize the magnitude of the rescue that took place by the mIghty Rescuer.

 

[Carbon]

You're kidding, right?

Yea, right!

 

[Carbon]

Baptism really only "signifies" obedience to the gospel. And it is in obedience to that gospel that one is saved, that gospel which "is the power of salvation to everyone who believes" (Rom 1:16).

I just gave you Jack Cottrell as my favorite theology. So in answer to your question I will simply refer you to him for my answer. You can find that answer here:

Does 1 Cor. 2:14 Support Calvinism?

Nonsense.

 

[Carbon]

regeneration occurs in baptism.

Huh? What baptism are you talking about? Surely not water baptism.

 

[Carbon]

It seems from his posts that maybe his answer is both yes and no, though I don't think he realizes that.

I'm not so sure he really understands.

 

[Carbon]

There is not a single verse in all of the NT that says that regeneration precedes believing.

The teaching is explicit throughout.

 

[Carbon]

It would help me to understand where you are coming from and find some place where we can agree, if you share your background and affiliations--and from where you derive your thinking on these things.
Depending on your response, I may have a response in mind, but first things first. Of course you are under no obligation.

It seems he just resorts to playing games once he is asked something which he knows he cannot prove with scripture.