Christian Baptism, does it include infants?

[JIM]

Please clarify for me. Do you believe that baptism (the act of) saves.

No. Baptism is the occasion in the life of the sinner when God saves.

 

[Alive]

No. Baptism is the occasion in the life of the sinner when God saves.

Ya---this is not clear. So, are you saying that it is during baptism that God saves or that salvation occurs?
Let me ask this way---are you saying that a person is not saved until baptism?

 

[JIM]

They are brought to life----regeneration---so they are able and willing to believe---have faith.

Where in the scriptures does it ever say that? Do you not understand that being brought to life is in the very act of God's saving? You can't have been brought to life and still be in your sins.

 

[JIM]

Ya---this is not clear. So, are you saying that it is during baptism that God saves or that salvation occurs?

Salvation occurs when God saves.

 

[JIM]

Ya---this is not clear. So, are you saying that it is during baptism that God saves or that salvation occurs?
Let me ask this way---are you saying that a person is not saved until baptism?

I suppose that God could save whomever and whenever He so chose. But that is not what He has told us. What Jesus has said in Mark 16:16 is that the person who believes AND is baptized will be saved. The grammar of that statement says that both are required. The great commission of Matthew 28:18-20 tells us that it is through baptizing and teaching that disciples are made. Acts 2:38 tells us that the repentant believer that is baptized will have his sins forgiven and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. To have sins forgiven and have received the gift of the Holy Spirit is salvation. Clearly baptism is given as the occasion when that happens. That is consistent throughout the NT.

There is not a single verse in all of the NT that says that regeneration precedes believing.

 

[JIM]

Not according to Eph 2:8-9. . .salvation is for the believer. . .baptism follows, throughout the book of Acts.

There is not a single verse in the NT that says that baptism follows salvation, not in Acts or any other book in the NT.

 

[Eleanor]

I suppose that God could save whomever and whenever He so chose. But that is not what He has told us. What Jesus has said in Mark 16:16 is that the person who believes AND is baptized will be saved. The grammar of that statement says that both are required. The great commission of Matthew 28:18-20 tells us that it is through baptizing and teaching that disciples are made. Acts 2:38 tells us that the repentant believer that is baptized will have his sins forgiven and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. To have sins forgiven and have received the gift of the Holy Spirit is salvation. Clearly baptism is given as the occasion when that happens. That is consistent throughout the NT.

There is not a single verse in all of the NT that says that regeneration precedes believing.

There is not a single verse in all of the NT that says God is Trinity.

1 Co 2:14, Jn 3:3-5. . .you can't even see the kingdom of God, much less believe in it, before the sovereign new birth by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Alive]

I suppose that God could save whomever and whenever He so chose. But that is not what He has told us. What Jesus has said in Mark 16:16 is that the person who believes AND is baptized will be saved. The grammar of that statement says that both are required. The great commission of Matthew 28:18-20 tells us that it is through baptizing and teaching that disciples are made. Acts 2:38 tells us that the repentant believer that is baptized will have his sins forgiven and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. To have sins forgiven and have received the gift of the Holy Spirit is salvation. Clearly baptism is given as the occasion when that happens. That is consistent throughout the NT.

There is not a single verse in all of the NT that says that regeneration precedes believing.

It would help me to understand where you are coming from and find some place where we can agree, if you share your background and affiliations--and from where you derive your thinking on these things.
Depending on your response, I may have a response in mind, but first things first. Of course you are under no obligation.

 

[JIM]

1 Co 2:14, Jn 3:3-5. . .you can't even see the kingdom of God, much less believe in it, before the sovereign new birth by the Holy Spirit.

First of all, 1 Corinthians 2:14 is not about you. It is about the divinely inspired apostles. The entire chapter is the declaration and defense of Paul's own divine inspiration by the Holy Spirit. You are not Paul and you are not a divinely inspired prophet of God.

To "see" the kingdom as in John 3:3 is precisely the same as to "enter" the kingdom as in John 3:5. Clearly, they are one and the same and indicate participation in the kingdom. There is not even a hint that "see" is intended in a visual sense.

 

[Alive]

First of all, 1 Corinthians 2:14 is not about you. It is about the divinely inspired apostles. The entire chapter is the declaration and defense of Paul's own divine inspiration by the Holy Spirit. You are not Paul and you are not a divinely inspired prophet of God.

To "see" the kingdom as in John 3:3 is precisely the same as to "enter" the kingdom as in John 3:5. Clearly, they are one and the same and indicate participation in the kingdom. There is not even a hint that "see" is intended in a visual sense.

Wow! This is not so. What he was doing by the Holy Spirit was contrasting the matured believer and the immature. That is the context of most of the letter.

 

[Simons]

Ya---this is not clear. So, are you saying that it is during baptism that God saves or that salvation occurs?

Is that the correct understanding of 1 Peter 3:21 where it reads: This water (Noah's flood) prefigured Baptism, which now saves you. It does so not by the washing away of dirt from the body but by the pledge of a good conscience given to God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[JIM]

It would help me to understand where you are coming from and find some place where we can agree, if you share your background and affiliations--and from where you derive your thinking on these things.
Depending on your response, I may have a response in mind, but first things first. Of course you are under no obligation

I am coming from a long life of studying the Bible. I was raised in a good Christian family. I spent two years in the Cincinnati Bible Seminary many years ago. "My favorite theologian" is Dr. Jack Cottrell, who was a student one year ahead of me there and who upon receiving his undergraduate degrees from there and from The University of Cincinnati went on to receive his M.Div from Westminster Theological Seminary and his Ph.D. from Princeton Theological Seminary. I disagree on some of his theology, but I agree with him on most of his theology and definitely on his soteriology. You can look him up on the web. He is widely published, and much is available on Amazon and elsewhere.

 

[JIM]

Wow! This is not so. What he was doing by the Holy Spirit was contrasting the matured believer and the immature. That is the context of most of the letter.

Only in the warped mind of one who desperately wants and needs to believe in the false doctrine of illumination. As I said, that entire chapter is Paul's statement and defense of his divine inspiration by the Holy Spirit. What he was doing was contrasting the ordinary saint and the divinely inspired apostles.

 

[Alive]

Is that the correct understanding of 1 Peter 3:21 where it reads: This water (Noah's flood) prefigured Baptism, which now saves you. It does so not by the washing away of dirt from the body but by the pledge of a good conscience given to God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

No--Peter is speaking about what baptism signifies by our inclusion 'In Christ' of the Father, having died with Him in the Cross and raised 'In Him' in New Life.
Life from the dead. Saved from the death as Noah was, as an illustration and teaching tool.

 

[Alive]

Only in the warped mind of one who desperately wants and needs to believe in the false doctrine of illumination. As I said, that entire chapter is Paul's statement and defense of his divine inspiration by the Holy Spirit. What he was doing was contrasting the ordinary saint and the divinely inspired apostles.

OK--this helps me to understand you, but bear with me for just another moment and explain what you mean by 'illumination'.
Thanks.

 

[JIM]

No--Peter is speaking about what baptism signifies by our inclusion 'In Christ' of the Father, having died with Him in the Cross and raised 'In Him' in New Life.
Life from the dead. Saved from the death as Noah was, as an illustration and teaching tool.

Baptism really only "signifies" obedience to the gospel. And it is in obedience to that gospel that one is saved, that gospel which "is the power of salvation to everyone who believes" (Rom 1:16).

OK--this helps me to understand you, but bear with me for just another moment and explain what you mean by 'illumination'.
Thanks.

I just gave you Jack Cottrell as my favorite theology. So in answer to your question I will simply refer you to him for my answer. You can find that answer here:

Does 1 Cor. 2:14 Support Calvinism?

 

[Alive]

Baptism really only "signifies" obedience to the gospel. And it is in obedience to that gospel that one is saved, that gospel which "is the power of salvation to everyone who believes" (Rom 1:16).

I just gave you Jack Cottrell as my favorite theology. So in answer to your question I will simply refer you to him for my answer. You can find that answer here:

Does 1 Cor. 2:14 Support Calvinism?

I was hoping to see it in your own words which would reflect your conviction.

 

[Eleanor]

First of all, 1 Corinthians 2:14 is not about you. It is about the divinely inspired apostles.

You're kidding, right?

The man without the Spirit in 1 Co 2:14 is an apostle?

No, the man without the Spirit is the man without faith who is, therefore, spiritually dead (without eternal life) and cannot spiritually see the things of God because they are spiritually discerned and he is spiritually dead.

The entire chapter is the declaration and defense of Paul's own divine inspiration by the Holy Spirit.

And v. 14 is about the inability of the man without the Spirit to accept the things which Paul presents from the Holy Spirit, because those things are foolishness to the man without the Holy Spirit, and he cannot understand them because he must have the Holy Spirit to do so, for they are spiritually discerned only.

You are not Paul and you are not a divinely inspired prophet of God.

To "see" the kingdom as in John 3:3 is precisely the same as to "enter" the kingdom as in John 3:5. Clearly, they are one and the same and indicate participation in the kingdom. There is not even a hint that "see" is intended in a visual sense.

To see is to understand what it means.
To enter is to believe what it means.

Two different, but related, things.

 

[JIM]

I was hoping to see it in your own words which would reflect your conviction.

Hey, it is not that long. And he writes much better than I. It answers your question. If it didn't reflect my conviction, I wouldn't have given you the reference.

 

[Fred]

There is not a single verse in the NT that says that baptism follows salvation, not in Acts or any other book in the NT.

Wrong.

Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him were saved before their water baptism.