Christian Baptism, does it include infants?

[Mr GLee]

Would you say the same for circumcision?

Did a 8 day old male volunteered to take the sign of the community of God and therefore become a member?

Hi thanks .I would offer.

Things of the flesh the temporal seen by themselves no value. They must be mixed with the unseen things of Christ's faith as a labor of the husbands love for his bride the church.

Like all signs to the unbelieving world as shadows they pointed ahead to the sufferings of Christ beforehand and the glory (the cross) that followed .

Believers have prophecy. They have no need for signs to wonder after as if prophecy. Rather than coming from the father of lies. . King of lying signs to wonder after .

Like today the wonder of the loss of identification tradition of men ????? Stumbling in the darkness . Gender confusion plaguing our present leadership destroying the schools and families. Destroying the walls that keep out the terrorist's

Proverbs 25:28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.


The same tradition no identity need as the first century which was restored and made great again at the time of 1st century reformation (Hebrew 9)

The sufferings of Christ called the bloody husband because of circummsion . It was represented by the veil 70 ft high torn from the top to the bottom revealing the what was called the holy of holies .Not called by God .He does not live in dead temples made with the will of dying mankind . He uses living temples apostles sent with prophecy. Like Abel the first listed.

There was no Jewish man as King of kings sitting . Satan fell and could no longer deceive all the nations of the world that God is a racist Jewish man as King of kings.

The foundation of the doctrine circummsion .

Twice to emphasize

Exodus 4:25-26Then Zipporah (the priestess) took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision

A comparable parable or figure of speech

Hebrews 11:18-20King James Version Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. By faith Isaac (Yoked with Christ )blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

Using Isaac the apostle this time as a priest to perform the priestly demonstration of the unseen work of Christ . .the bloody husband because of circummsion

 

[atpollard]

The great DIFFICULTY in any attempt to discuss this is that there are actually TWO questions that quickly become conflated. One can no sooner begin to concentrate on the FIRST, then the conversation bounces to the SECOND (or visa versa). If we peel away the layers, the BIG QUESTIONS at the core are:

1. What IS the Church?
2. What IS Baptism?

The importance of these questions is the root reason why "calm" discussion eludes most Christians. These answers MATTER TOO MUCH to be discussed with the same indifference as "How many angels fit on the head of a pin?"

In the Paedo- vs Credo debate, The FIRST QUESTION takes the form of what makes the New Covenant NEW (and distinct from the OLD Covenant)? Is one BORN (physically) into the New Covenant [as one was born physically into the Old Covenant]? Is one ONLY BORN (spiritually) into the New Covenant [making it different from the Old Covenant]? At its core, is there ONE COVENANT or TWO COVENANTS (an old which has passed away and a new that has replaced it)?

• This is a FUNDAMENTAL difference in how one views the question, and it is a fundamental difference in how one defines the meaning of the word CHURCH!
• As a continuation of a Covenant that one is PHYSICALLY BORN into, the Church is comprised of families - saved and unsaved members.
• As a break with the old and a New Covenant that one MUST be "born from above" into, the Church is comprised of Children of God (and only Children of God) into which an enemy has sown weeds that give false appearances but which are revealed with time. [You will have to indulge my Baptist leaning, I am obviously more familiar with the support for what I believe than the support for what I understand but do not believe.]
• Note that THIS FIRST QUESTION has nothing to do with Babies! It has to do with the relationship between the OT and the NT and with the definition of what is the CHURCH!

IF (a giant assumption) one must be "born from above" to be "THE CHURCH", then babies and anyone else that cannot and will not DO what God has commanded, should not be baptized into the CHURCH. That is the fundamental "Baptist" argument against "infant baptism". Scripture clearly calls sinners to REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED and babies have not "repented" because they do not understand ... thus they are not fulfilling the requirements of A BELIEVER (who knows what an infant believes). [This argument is so obvious and so oft presented that everyone should probably UNDERSTAND IT ... even if you 100% disagree.] So let's set it aside and ignore it.

Instead, let us NOT grant my Baptist "IF" and take as a GIVEN FOR DISCUSSION: "There is one Church and One Covenant (OT and NT), so Families are BORN into the NEW COVENANT! [I do not believe it, but we will ASSUME it is true for a moment.]

• What is "Baptism"? What does it mean? What does it symbolize? What does it accomplish?
• The word itself literally means "Immerse" and it is a ritual performed at the cleansing of sin in the NT.
• So, why are we doing ANYTHING to babies and calling it IMMERSION for the removal of sin?
• Even PAEDO-Baptists do not believe that infant baptism saves the person.
• The claim that Infant Baptism replaces Infant Circumcision appears to be 100% extra-biblical in origin.
• THUS, QUESTION 2 is actually distinct from Question 1: Even if there is a Family Covenant, there is no call to redefine Baptism from what is defined in SCRIPTURE. Sprinkle and DEDICATE ... there is no verse prohibiting that and it redefines no Biblical terms.

If you have read to the end, thank you for taking the time to hear my thoughts.
Arthur

 

[Red Baker]

Would you say the same for circumcision?

Did a 8 day old male volunteered to take the sign of the community of God and therefore become a member?

Greetings Reformedguy~do you, or anyone here, believe that NT baptism replaced OT circumcision? IF yes, please briefly explain why you believe it does.

 

[Red Baker]

Let me ask you credo type question. Where does it say infants were excluded in the term "households"?

Fair question, but I'm reminded what the scriptures said in Acts 16:34

Acts 16:34​

“And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.”

Those of the jailor's household rejoiced and believed~which infants cannot do. So, we must conclude that whoever was of his household were able to do both. Infants in the scriptures are considered to be from one month up to five years old.

Leviticus 27:3-7~" And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary. And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels. And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels. And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels."

Here God divides mankind into four group according to their ages. One month unto five years old ~ INFANTS; five up to twenty years old young lads; twenty up to sixty is youth; sixty and up is old age. In the scriptures of the NT, we never read of infants or even young lads being baptized, always men and women, which would be twenty to sixty.

This does not means that there is a set age not to baptized, for there will always be exceptions, but the exceptions only proves the rule. Infants and young folks will not spoil if they are God's elect, we must give them time to make this serious commitment of following Jesus Christ, most young lads are too much in serving their lust, if the truth is truly known and confess.

Go through the book of the Acts of the apostles and see just how many young folks were baptized by the apostles, not one. Philip even told the eunuch that he could only be baptized if he truly believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God.

Btw, the eunuch was not baptized into any known church! For that's not why water baptism is given...... for baptism is a commitment of following the religion/teachings of Jesus Christ and giving God an answer of a good conscience concerning the testimony of the scriptures concerning Jesus Christ. We we are baptized we are baptized INTO Jesus Christ, or into his faith/teachings, etc.

I have more I desire to post later.

 

[Red Baker]

Let us consider the DANGER of baptizing infants and/or, even children.

I will use the scriptures to determine my position~but, I'm no cat lady, or a son of one! I'm from a family of ten, with many nieces and nephews. I have eighteen grandchildren of my own, so I know a little about children and how to deal with them~tons of experience speaking.

Baptizing anyone not properly qualified, especially so infants and children for the ordinance is a perversion of the gospel of Christ.

All things must be done decently and in order: baptizing foolish children is wrong (Ist Cor 14:40) they do not think or reason as an adult, which baptism requires both. Baptism is important, for it is the first act of Christian obedience (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 10:48). Baptism requires repentance, which in turn requires consciousness of sins (Matt 3:6; Mark 1:4). Baptism is the answer of a good conscience, so we must have a conscience, sufficient knowledge of the gospel to make it good, and the ability and willingness to act conscientiously (Ist Pet 3:21).

John required fruits, or actions, to prove a true spirit of repentance before baptism (Matt 3:7-9).

We must avoid and reject Roman influence that would value sacramentalism without knowledge. Besides, baptism is not a sacrament as we shall see later.

Baptism is not needed for eternal life, so there is no obligation or need to baptize children early. It is the false teaching of baptismal regeneration that has spawned so many heresies.

Not baptizing young lads that properly repent and believe is to offend Christ’s little ones (Mat 18:1-14). (bewtween 6 and 19 as a guideline to consider base on scriptures above provided.

This warning by Jesus teaches principles, not baptismal rules (Matt 19:13-15; Mark 9:33-43). God forbid for us to think there is advantage in trying to be more conservative than Scripture (Acts 26:5; Col 2:16-23).

We must avoid Roman influence that exalts manmade rules and tradition over the word of God.

We fully agree that the knowledge required for baptism is not great, and we should not seek to make it greater. Yet we must remember that baptism is the act of obedient faith bringing the Holy Spirit to seal us as God’s children (John 7:39; Acts 2:38-39; 19:1-7; II Cor 1:22; Gal 3:26-29; Eph 1:13; 4:30).

Parental emotions often run very high in their sentimental prejudice in favor of their own children. Parental love for a child is absolutely irrelevant to the issue. Does the child truly love God? Women being the weaker vessel, especially have difficulty thinking rationally from Scripture about their own children. The easiest decision is to make black and white rules; but godly wisdom is exercised in gray areas.

 

[JIM]

Let us consider the DANGER of baptizing infants and/or, even children.

I will use the scriptures to determine my position~but, I'm no cat lady, or a son of one! I'm from a family of ten, with many nieces and nephews. I have eighteen grandchildren of my own, so I know a little about children and how to deal with them~tons of experience speaking.

Baptizing anyone not properly qualified, especially so infants and children for the ordinance is a perversion of the gospel of Christ.

All things must be done decently and in order: baptizing foolish children is wrong (Ist Cor 14:40) they do not think or reason as an adult, which baptism requires both. Baptism is important, for it is the first act of Christian obedience (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 10:48). Baptism requires repentance, which in turn requires consciousness of sins (Matt 3:6; Mark 1:4). Baptism is the answer of a good conscience, so we must have a conscience, sufficient knowledge of the gospel to make it good, and the ability and willingness to act conscientiously (Ist Pet 3:21).

John required fruits, or actions, to prove a true spirit of repentance before baptism (Matt 3:7-9).

We must avoid and reject Roman influence that would value sacramentalism without knowledge. Besides, baptism is not a sacrament as we shall see later.

Baptism is not needed for eternal life, so there is no obligation or need to baptize children early. It is the false teaching of baptismal regeneration that has spawned so many heresies.

Not baptizing young lads that properly repent and believe is to offend Christ’s little ones (Mat 18:1-14). (bewtween 6 and 19 as a guideline to consider base on scriptures above provided.

This warning by Jesus teaches principles, not baptismal rules (Matt 19:13-15; Mark 9:33-43). God forbid for us to think there is advantage in trying to be more conservative than Scripture (Acts 26:5; Col 2:16-23).

We must avoid Roman influence that exalts manmade rules and tradition over the word of God.

We fully agree that the knowledge required for baptism is not great, and we should not seek to make it greater. Yet we must remember that baptism is the act of obedient faith bringing the Holy Spirit to seal us as God’s children (John 7:39; Acts 2:38-39; 19:1-7; II Cor 1:22; Gal 3:26-29; Eph 1:13; 4:30).

Parental emotions often run very high in their sentimental prejudice in favor of their own children. Parental love for a child is absolutely irrelevant to the issue. Does the child truly love God? Women being the weaker vessel, especially have difficulty thinking rationally from Scripture about their own children. The easiest decision is to make black and white rules; but godly wisdom is exercised in gray areas.

I would agree with nearly all of that. However, your statement, "Baptism is important, for it is the first act of Christian obedience (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 10:48)", is incorrect.

In Mark 16:16, both believing and being baptized are precedents for being saved. In Acts 2:38, believing (implied), repenting and baptism are all precedents for being forgiven and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, both of which are God's actions in the process of saving the individual. Although Acts 10:44-48 does not explicitly state it, it is relatively easy to show that the baptism that Peter commanded was the same as the baptism of Acts 2:38.

Thus, all three of the references you listed clearly present baptism as conditionals to being saved, not the first act of Christian obedience.

I would add one other note. In the great commission from Jesus in Matthew 28:18-20, He explicitly states that the procedure to be followed in the making of disciples is baptizing and teaching.

Now with that, I would certainly agree that none of that is appropriate for children too young to know and understand even the need for salvation.

 

[Red Baker]

The GUIDELINES​

Many issues require God’s children to judge: baptism is surely such an issue that we must let the bible speak to us.
There is no example at all in the Bible of any child of any age ever being baptized. Consider it!

The children Jesus defended were not baptized (Matthew 18:1-14; 19:13-15; Mark 9:33-43). Neither was baptism offered to them. All the specific cases of baptism described in the New Testament are of adults, not children.

Jesus fulfilled righteousness by baptism at 30 (Luke 3:21-23); Consider this well! Why thirty years old? Baptism is a baptism INTO the faith and religion of Jesus Christ. Timothy was a youth, but we are not told enough to know what Paul meant by that vague term (I Tim 4:12; II Tim 2:22).

Household baptisms prove Catholics and others who follow them wrong, but not the first Christians in the Acts of the apostles; for the word of God was taught and believed before baptism in all cases (Acts 10:44-48; 16:32-33).

The Bible is quite meager on the level of responsibility expected or required at any specific age. Consider:

God judged Israel from entering Canaan from the age of 20 (Numbers 14:28-35; 32:11).

A simple rule like 20 is very appealing to elders of the churches, that would like a black and white rule! Those under 20 are described as not knowing good from evil, but we must interpret this in light of their inability to make the decision to take Canaan themselves (Deuteronomy 1:39). Those over 20 had to pay an atonement tax for their souls (Exodus 30:11-16; 38:26). Moses numbered all those 20 and over as able to go forth to war (Numbers 1:3,45; 26:2). Levites worked at 20 (I Chronicles 23:24), at 25 (Num 8:24), and at 30 years of age (Num 4:3). God described the innocent of Nineveh as not knowing their right hand from left (Jonah 4:11). This vague description is not conclusive again, but it may be assumed near 5 years of age. Our own education-obsessed society does not attempt much instruction before the age of 5. The shame of nakedness is an indicator from nature of active consciences (Gen 2:25; 3:7,11,22). Young children show no shame about nakedness in front of the other sex, but this changes. You must consider a child’s shame apart from habit, peer pressure, or parental restrictions. God and men assume infancy, childhood, youth, majority, and old age (Lev 27:1-7; Eccl 11:10).

Here is a valuable passage that indicates the relative value of ages and sexes for redemption. Again, observe that God considers all children between one month and five years as infants (27:6). The category from 5 to 20 would include children and youth, though youth might in some contexts include those under 30, when leadership began (Num 4:3,35,39,43,47; Luke 3:23).

The knowledge level for baptism is not high, but it does require a conscience and some knowledge. Most instruction and growth takes place after baptism (Matt 28:18-20; I Pet 2:1-3; II Pet 3:18). John the Baptist required confession and repentance to be proven before baptism (Matt 3:1-8). Peter required the same at Pentecost (Acts 2:38); and Paul taught it to all (Acts 26:20). The Jews at Pentecost, the eunuch, the jailor, and Cornelius gave evidence of faith. It requires faith in the gospel (Matt 28:19; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 8:12; 18:8; Hebrews 11:6). It requires the answer of an active and intelligent conscience to answer God (I Peter 3:21).

I'll come back and finish this post....

 

[Red Baker]

The GUIDELINES~continue​

The reason for baptism should be appreciation for Jesus Christ saving you from your sins. The reason for baptism should be love of God and desire to please Him by obedience. The answer and objective of baptism is answering God, not satisfying parents or friends.

Regeneration precedes faith, and faith precedes baptism, so regeneration should be indicated.

Children from a Christian home and/or regenerated early may not have a dramatic change.

Faith without works is dead and is but a devilish faith, so works should appear (James 2:14-26). Children may show obedience, sobriety, fear of God, speaking the truth, and love for God. Children may show a rule of their spirit brought about by the grace of God not evident in others.

Proverbs 20:11​

“Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.”

God's elders must judge in a child's baptism; and they may change that judgment (Hebrews 13:7). It is their solemn duty to rightly divide the Bible on this issue (II Chron 19:8-10; II Tim 2:15). There are so many factors that age is a pitiful determinant of when one should be baptized. Allowances see differences in intelligence, maturity, temperament, training, confidence, etc. We can derive enough wisdom from Scripture in order to establish a few general guidelines.

Any child five years of age or under is considered an infant in the mind of God (Leviticus 27:6). Yet an exceptional child of five or six might be able to worship, like Samuel (I Samuel 1:24-28). Though it would be extremely rare as in Samuel's case.

Jesus said that children brought to him were believers, so we will also (Matt 18:6; Mark 9:42). If the Son of God gave them credit for faith in Him, then we must not deny them foolishly. These children were old enough to respond to verbal commands and be offended by others. The initial aspects of the gospel that must be confessed are actually very simple (Acts 8:37). The great bulk of instruction and growth in grace is to occur after baptism (Matt 28:19-20). A simple, solitary, or casual request does not mean anything to an elder of God. Children can be easily manipulated by a sermon, by peer pressure, or by age considerations. Persistent requests, obedience at home, and knowledge of discipleship are important factors. Baptism is not just a rote ritual to be done casually or easily; it is a sober act of discipleship! A good conscience must recognize one’s own sinfulness and Christ’s great salvation (I Pet 3:21). This precludes rote memorization of facts or trained verbal responses simply to qualify. A conscience has personal interest in the facts of the gospel, not mere intellectual knowledge. A conscience aware of sin and salvation will have independent indications of its condition. If a child has never initiated spiritual conversation, requests, or tears, where is a conscience?

 

[JIM]

Regeneration precedes faith, and faith precedes baptism, so regeneration should be indicated.

Again, I agree with most of that post concerning children, with the exception of the quoted statement.

Regeneration is through faith (John 5:24-25; Acts 2:38; 19:1-7; 22:16; Eph 2:8; Gal 3:25-27; Col 2:11-13). And as indicated in most of those passages and others, regeneration occurs in baptism.

 

[Alive]

Baptism is both symbolic of entering a New Life and a sign of dedication to a Faith…and that Faith in and of Christ.
It must follow regeneration. It is not causal.

 

[Red Baker]

I would agree with nearly all of that. However, your statement, "Baptism is important, for it is the first act of Christian obedience (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 10:48)", is incorrect.

Jim, throughout the NT, baptism was the first act of of a believer regarding his obedience to Christ.

Acts 10:48​

“And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”

They already were born again, but had not been baptized into Jesus Christ.

In Mark 16:16, both believing and being baptized are precedents for being saved. In Acts 2:38, believing (implied), repenting and baptism are all precedents for being forgiven and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, both of which are God's actions in the process of saving the individual. Although Acts 10:44-48 does not explicitly state it, it is relatively easy to show that the baptism that Peter commanded was the same as the baptism of Acts 2:38.

Jim, the salvation under consideration in these scriptures is practical in nature as I have shown this to you more than once, but would do so again for any other person who might want to consider this.

Thus, all three of the references you listed clearly present baptism as conditionals to being saved, not the first act of Christian obedience.

I would add one other note. In the great commission from Jesus in Matthew 28:18-20, He explicitly states that the procedure to be followed in the making of disciples is baptizing and teaching.

Now with that, I would certainly agree that none of that is appropriate for children too young to know and understand even the need for salvation.

I'll will come back and look at Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38, maybe tomorrow.

 

[Mr GLee]

Regeneration precedes faith, and faith precedes baptism, so regeneration should be indicated.

Regeneration restoration is a work of the faith of Christ called a labor of His love . He alone can faithful; prophecy his will ."Let there be" and "it was God alone good" . . Christian new creature yoked with Christ. The powerful . . Let there be "law of faith"

 

[JIM]

Baptism is both symbolic of entering a New Life and a sign of dedication to a Faith…and that Faith in and of Christ.
It must follow regeneration. It is not causal.

Yes, baptism is not causal. But then neither is faith. Only God is causal. Regeneration is the spiritually dead brought to life again. One cannot be brought to life and still be in their sins. Forgiveness of sin, an act by God for the one being baptized, is a necessary feature of regeneration.

Baptism is symbolic of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus on the cross. However, baptism is not symbolic of entering a New Life, it is the time in the life of the sinner when he is raised to that New Life; being raised to that New Life is REgeneration.

 

[JIM]

Jim, throughout the NT, baptism was the first act of of a believer regarding his obedience to Christ.

Yes, that is true, however, throughout the NT salvation occurs in the act of being baptized. One is not saved without his sins being forgiven. That forgiveness is received in baptism.

Jim, the salvation under consideration in these scriptures is practical in nature as I have shown this to you more than once, but would do so again for any other person who might want to consider this.

Practical, Schmactical. I absolutely reject your presentation of the various "senses" of salvation. Salvation is the act of God when the sinner becomes a saint -- Period. It is, with the few exceptions, a once and done occurrence for the baptized believer by the gracious act of God.

 

[Mr GLee]

Yes, that is true, however, throughout the NT salvation occurs in the act of being baptized. One is not saved without his sins being forgiven. That forgiveness is received in baptism.

Salvation as a law of faith. . . believing the unseen eternal things of Christ it occurs in the act of being baptized by the water of the word . let there be as a labor of Christ Love .working in with Christians

Water is used to represent life just as blood .Many times in parables used together. In that way the life of the flesh in in the blood . . that life is spiritual not seen .

When used in a living sacrifice it must be poured out like water to show life was given and it can return the the field of clay

A metaphor used in parables "drink the blood" used several times as the gospel, the sufferings of Christ beforehand it would seem to represent
The Holy Spirit of Christ pouring out His Spirit life on dying flesh and blood .In jeapordy of his own Spirit life.

John 6 parable drink blood. . . a mirror of 2 Samuel 23: and 1 Chronicles 11

2 Samael 23:14 And David was then in an hold, and the garrison of the Philistines was then in Bethlehem. And David longed, and said, Oh that one would give me drink of the water of the well of Bethlehem, which is by the gate! And the three mighty men brake through the host of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Bethlehem, that was by the gate, and took it, and brought it to David: nevertheless he would not drink thereof, but poured it out unto the Lord. And he said, Be it far from me, O Lord, that I should do this: is not this the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives? therefore he would not drink it. These things did these three mighty men.

Water and wine the blood of the grapes is used the way also to represent the work of the gospel . Christ pouring out his faithful Spirt life in jeapordy of his own

 

[Arial]

One cannot be brought to life and still be in their sins.

They are brought to life----regeneration---so they are able and willing to believe---have faith. They are saved by an act of grace (no one deserves it and can do nothing to merity it) through faith. It is this faith (in the person and work of Jesus) that justifies---reconciles them to God. The substitutionary work of Jesus is applied to them, (by the Holy Spirit, not by baptism) therefore their sins are forgiven. And the faith is not generated from within themselves, thereby meriting the new birth and meriting forgiveness, (making grace no longer grace but reward for a job well done). God is causal of all of it including faith.

When you say

Yes, baptism is not causal. But then neither is faith. Only God is causal.

you have contradicted yourself. If baptism is not causal, then it cannot be

Thus, all three of the references you listed clearly present baptism as conditionals to being saved, not the first act of Christian obedience.

However, baptism is not symbolic of entering a New Life, it is the time in the life of the sinner when he is raised to that New Life; being raised to that New Life is REgeneration.

If that is the case, then baptism is causal of regeneration, not God. It cannot be both symbolic and the cause of regeneration. If it is all of God, and only he is causal, then the regeneration must come before everything else. And everything else other than the baptism must also be caused by God or we have things not caused by God, though you say only God is causal. Baptism is a sign of being in the new covenant community---a visible confession of faith and union with Christ.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, that is true, however, throughout the NT salvation occurs in the act of being baptized. One is not saved without his sins being forgiven. That forgiveness is received in baptism.

Practical, Schmactical. I absolutely reject your presentation of the various "senses" of salvation. Salvation is the act of God when the sinner becomes a saint -- Period. It is, with the few exceptions, a once and done occurrence for the baptized believer by the gracious act of God.

Not according to Eph 2:8-9. . .salvation is for the believer. . .baptism follows, throughout the book of Acts.

 

[Alive]

Not according to Eph 2:8-9. . .salvation is for the believer. . .baptism follows, throughout the book of Acts

That forgiveness is received in baptism.

Please clarify for me. Do you believe that baptism (the act of) saves.

 

[Arial]

Please clarify for me. Do you believe that baptism (the act of) saves.

It seems from his posts that maybe his answer is both yes and no, though I don't think he realizes that.

 

[Eleanor]

Please clarify for me. Do you believe that baptism (the act of) saves.

Regeneration --> faith --> salvation precede everything.