Cessationism what has ceased to exist in the church ?

[civic]

From Got Questions

Cessationism is the view that the “miracle gifts” of tongues and healing have ceased—that the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age. Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs.

The biblical record shows that miracles occurred during particular periods for the specific purpose of authenticating a new message from God. Moses was enabled to perform miracles to authenticate his ministry before Pharaoh (Exodus 4:1-8). Elijah was given miracles to authenticate his ministry before Ahab (1 Kings 17:1; 18:24). The apostles were given miracles to authenticate their ministry before Israel (Acts 4:10, 16).

Jesus’ ministry was also marked by miracles, which the Apostle John calls “signs” (John 2:11). John’s point is that the miracles were proofs of the authenticity of Jesus’ message.

After Jesus’ resurrection, as the Church was being established and the New Testament was being written, the apostles demonstrated “signs” such as tongues and the power to heal. “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (1 Corinthians 14:22, a verse that plainly says the gift was never intended to edify the church).

The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). Here are six proofs that it has already ceased:

1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.

2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned, although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy. The Greek word translated “prophecy” means “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future.

3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12.

4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3).

5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.

6) There are indications that the gift of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and miraculously speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to in Acts 2. As for the gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was primarily associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship (2 Corinthians 2:12; Hebrews 2:4); and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently demonstrated.

The reasons stated above are reasons cessationists believe the miraculous sign gifts have ceased. It is important to remember, though, that cessationists believe God still continues to work through the other gifts of the Spirit. According to 1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1, we would do well to “pursue love,” the greatest gift of all. If we are to desire gifts, we should desire to speak forth the Word of God, that all may be edified.

Do you agree or disagree, why or why not ?

 

[Arial]

Agree.

 

[CrowCross]

From Got Questions

Cessationism is the view that the “miracle gifts” of tongues and healing have ceased—that the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age. Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs.

The biblical record shows that miracles occurred during particular periods for the specific purpose of authenticating a new message from God. Moses was enabled to perform miracles to authenticate his ministry before Pharaoh (Exodus 4:1-8). Elijah was given miracles to authenticate his ministry before Ahab (1 Kings 17:1; 18:24). The apostles were given miracles to authenticate their ministry before Israel (Acts 4:10, 16).

Jesus’ ministry was also marked by miracles, which the Apostle John calls “signs” (John 2:11). John’s point is that the miracles were proofs of the authenticity of Jesus’ message.

After Jesus’ resurrection, as the Church was being established and the New Testament was being written, the apostles demonstrated “signs” such as tongues and the power to heal. “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (1 Corinthians 14:22, a verse that plainly says the gift was never intended to edify the church).

The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). Here are six proofs that it has already ceased:

1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.

2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned, although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy. The Greek word translated “prophecy” means “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future.

3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12.

4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3).

5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.

6) There are indications that the gift of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and miraculously speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to in Acts 2. As for the gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was primarily associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship (2 Corinthians 2:12; Hebrews 2:4); and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently demonstrated.

The reasons stated above are reasons cessationists believe the miraculous sign gifts have ceased. It is important to remember, though, that cessationists believe God still continues to work through the other gifts of the Spirit. According to 1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1, we would do well to “pursue love,” the greatest gift of all. If we are to desire gifts, we should desire to speak forth the Word of God, that all may be edified.

Do you agree or disagree, why or why not ?

This is a tough subject. Believe it or not I have never really heard anyone (in person) speak in tongues. Glossolalia. I've heard people speak 3 or 4 words....but never an entire paragraph or two with meaning. I've seen people try to force the tongues.


As to healings I have never witnessed an actual healing....but I have heard from time to time about someone going to a doctor and they are amazed the tumor is gone after being prayed for.

 

[civic]

This is a tough subject. Believe it or not I have never really heard anyone (in person) speak in tongues. Glossolalia. I've heard people speak 3 or 4 words....but never an entire paragraph or two with meaning. I've seen people try to force the tongues.


As to healings I have never witnessed an actual healing....but I have heard from time to time about someone going to a doctor and they are amazed the tumor is gone after being prayed for.

I have been in churches in my younger days where the whole church with 100's of people were all speaking in tounges at the same time. It was literally chaos and my wife (girlfriend at the time ) and I left immediately.

 

[makesends]

The Greek word translated “prophecy” means “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future.

Not OT: Then Prophecy is not necessarily a sign gift

OT: My wife (she was a rather uninhibited charismatic, attended C&MA), thought she had the Gift of Prophecy. I thought she just had an uncontrolled bad temper. She certainly was gifted at that!

Not so OT: God uses everything

 

[civic]

Not OT: Then Prophecy is not necessarily a sign gift

OT: My wife (she was a rather uninhibited charismatic, attended C&MA), thought she had the Gift of Prophecy. I thought she just had an uncontrolled bad temper. She certainly was gifted at that!

Not so OT: God uses everything

I was an elder in the CMA back in the late 80’s early 90’s. I liked that denomination. It’s where I learned about AW Tozer who was also CMA

 

[CrowCross]

I have been in churches in my younger days where the whole church with 100's of people were all speaking in tounges at the same time. It was literally chaos and my wife (girlfriend at the time ) and I left immediately.

Being slayed in the spirit always bothered me.

 

[EarlyActs]

Being slayed in the spirit always bothered me.

It's quite simple: the Spirit works when the Gospel is preached. If you want to see the Spirit work, that must be occurring. There is no direct appeal to the Spirit to do things. For the most part, whatever happens next after the Gospel is preached is the Spirit at work. There will probably be the 3 things from John 15: conviction of sin, righteousness and judgement. (Conviction: utter embrace that those things are true.).

It is interesting to compare I Cor 14's quote of Isaiah about tongues with Acts 2. In the Cor chapter Paul was dealing with both 'glossolalia' and 'ecstasia.' G was the official thing in Acts 2, which was not a miracle of speech. It was a miracle of what was heard--the message was heard in a person's own language.

This discredits most of modern 'tongues' (ecstasia) and of course what was happening at Corinth. It also has a way of discrediting the translating missionary, because the supernatural event is not there, although I support such translation work.

It also discredits any occurrence when Jews are not there. It was actually meant as a sign in that generation that they were to be missionaries to the nation. That was the vision for the whole nation, and all the prophets spoke of this when they talked of the restoration. Restoration, the Spirit and the outreach are all together in one package.

 

[360watt]

From Got Questions

Cessationism is the view that the “miracle gifts” of tongues and healing have ceased—that the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age. Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs.

The biblical record shows that miracles occurred during particular periods for the specific purpose of authenticating a new message from God. Moses was enabled to perform miracles to authenticate his ministry before Pharaoh (Exodus 4:1-8). Elijah was given miracles to authenticate his ministry before Ahab (1 Kings 17:1; 18:24). The apostles were given miracles to authenticate their ministry before Israel (Acts 4:10, 16).

Jesus’ ministry was also marked by miracles, which the Apostle John calls “signs” (John 2:11). John’s point is that the miracles were proofs of the authenticity of Jesus’ message.

After Jesus’ resurrection, as the Church was being established and the New Testament was being written, the apostles demonstrated “signs” such as tongues and the power to heal. “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (1 Corinthians 14:22, a verse that plainly says the gift was never intended to edify the church).

The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). Here are six proofs that it has already ceased:

1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.

2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned, although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy. The Greek word translated “prophecy” means “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future.

3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12.

4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3).

5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.

6) There are indications that the gift of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and miraculously speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to in Acts 2. As for the gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was primarily associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship (2 Corinthians 2:12; Hebrews 2:4); and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently demonstrated.

The reasons stated above are reasons cessationists believe the miraculous sign gifts have ceased. It is important to remember, though, that cessationists believe God still continues to work through the other gifts of the Spirit. According to 1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1, we would do well to “pursue love,” the greatest gift of all. If we are to desire gifts, we should desire to speak forth the Word of God, that all may be edified.

Do you agree or disagree, why or why not ?

I agree with this. What the apostles did was exceptional, not the norm.

I saw an article about how the mention of prophecy tongues and knowledge as gifts gets less and less as you move chronologically through the NT books.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The gift of healing etc. has not ceased, I ran an online ministry for some years, I always offered to pray for the sick. People did receive healing, one Muslim man was so strengthened in his body after prayer that he came to me to investigate what faith in Jesus was all about.

The first person that I prayed for asking for healing was healed the instant I prayed in Jesus's name. I was able to follow this person up for some years and they continually stated they were still well.

God has not healed "everybody" I have ever prayed for but He has healed some.

 

[Wordsmith]

From Got Questions
Cessationism is the view that the “miracle gifts” of tongues and healing have ceased—that the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age. Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs.

False no scripture says this. Scripture, history, current and past testimonies from recipients of God's gifts show this to be false doctrine.

The biblical record shows that miracles occurred during particular periods for the specific purpose of authenticating a new message from God. Moses was enabled to perform miracles to authenticate his ministry before Pharaoh (Exodus 4:1-8). Elijah was given miracles to authenticate his ministry before Ahab (1 Kings 17:1; 18:24). The apostles were given miracles to authenticate their ministry before Israel (Acts 4:10, 16).

Some Biblical miracles did show God's power to unbelievers BUT others were others were acts of mercy and grace.

Matthew 9:27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou son of David, have mercy on us.

28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.

This was just an act of mercy not a miracle to prove anything else but love and mercy to one in need.
Matthew 15:22-28
Matthew 17:16-21
Matthew 20:30-34

"Got Questions". Got no scriptural answers!

Jesus’ ministry was also marked by miracles, which the Apostle John calls “signs” (John 2:11). John’s point is that the miracles were proofs of the authenticity of Jesus’ message.

John 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

"Got Questios" Miss uses the above passage John 2:11 does not mean all of Jesus's miracles were acts of showmanship.

After Jesus’ resurrection, as the Church was being established and the New Testament was being written, the apostles demonstrated “signs” such as tongues and the power to heal. “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (1 Corinthians 14:22, a verse that plainly says the gift was never intended to edify the church).

False the verse says no such thing.

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

In fact 14:26 says the exact opposite!


All things includes interpreted tongues.

The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). Here are six proofs that it has already ceased:

False! Yes they will cease but they have not ceased!

1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.

False no scripture given to support this because there is not one!

2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned, although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy. The Greek word translated “prophecy” means “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future.

The gift of prophecy in the NT church is NOT preaching! 1 Corinthians 14:24-26. 1 Corinthians 14:3 The gift of prophecy is supernatural revelation preaching is not. 1 Corinthians 14:25

3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12.

There are other reasons and uses for tongues! 1 Corinthians 14:26. 1 Corinthians 14:2

4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3).

1 Corinthians does not say anything is inferior. That only comes from an inferior understanding of scripture. The gift of prophecy is not preaching see above. Tongues have specific purposes in certain settings. the claim the passage says it is inferior is FALSE!

5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.

Tongues have ceased in congregations that get their doctrine from sources such as "Got Questions."

6) There are indications that the gift of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and miraculously speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to in Acts 2.

1 Corinthians 12:1

"Got Questions" is ignorant of tongues and its uses and purposes. The Missionary example shows that ignorance.

As for the gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was primarily associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent.

God stills heals. I have been healed through the gift od healing and the word of knowledge.

"got Questions" got false answers on this.

The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship (2 Corinthians 2:12; Hebrews 2:4); and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently demonstrated.

More "Got Questions" Ignorance .

The gift of healing was never a magic trick believers carried around in their pocket. all gifts of the Spirit are controlled by the Spirit. 1Corinthians 12:4-11

2 Timothy 3:11


Paul did not fail to heal himself because no scripture says he was sick. Infirmities can also mean weakness. Paul listed all of the things that made up his "Thorn in the flesh" and sickness was not one of them. 2 Corinthians 12:10

The reasons stated above are reasons cessationists believe the miraculous sign gifts have ceased. It is important to remember, though, that cessationists believe God still continues to work through the other gifts of the Spirit. According to 1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1, we would do well to “pursue love,” the greatest gift of all. If we are to desire gifts, we should desire to speak forth the Word of God, that all may be edified.

Yes Love is the greatest , but God still works miracles through and for His people in mercy and love!

Do you agree or disagree, why or why not ?

When someone starts out "God still heals BUT " run back to scripture and Jesus the healer.

 

[360watt]

The gift of healing etc. has not ceased, I ran an online ministry for some years, I always offered to pray for the sick. People did receive healing, one Muslim man was so strengthened in his body after prayer that he came to me to investigate what faith in Jesus was all about.

The first person that I prayed for asking for healing was healed the instant I prayed in Jesus's name. I was able to follow this person up for some years and they continually stated they were still well.

God has not healed "everybody" I have ever prayed for but He has healed some.

God acting independently of the gifts to perform healings obviously can still happen. Cessationists don't claim miracles and healings have completely stopped, but the giving of the gifts of prophecy tongues and knowledge plus the gift of healing has passed.

There is a difference between God acting independently of the gifts and God acting through the gifts.

Through most of the gifts in the Bible belonged to the apostles, the setting up of the early churches and inspiration of the Bible.

Faith, hope and love are gifts He still operates through people. The others fulfilled their mission/purpose.

 

[Wordsmith]

God acting independently of the gifts to perform healings obviously can still happen. Cessationists don't claim miracles and healings have completely stopped, but the giving of the gifts of prophecy tongues and knowledge plus the gift of healing has passed.

God can act independently, but the gifts God set in the church are still here when allowed.

There is a difference between God acting independently of the gifts and God acting through the gifts.

Agreed, but God still uses his children nothing has changed. I gave detailed scriptural analysis, you have made declarations not supported with scripture.

Through most of the gifts in the Bible belonged to the apostles, the setting up of the early churches and inspiration of the Bible.

Gifts don't or didn't "belong" to anyone they operate as the Spirit wills through willing vessels.

Faith, hope and love are gifts He still operates through people. The others fulfilled their mission/purpose.

True, but you have no scriptural basis to remove the others. It is false teaching to claim the gifts God set in the church are past!

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[360watt]

God can act independently, but the gifts God set in the church are still here when allowed.



Agreed, but God still uses his children nothing has changed. I gave detailed scriptural analysis, you have made declarations not supported with scripture.

Gifts don't or didn't "belong" to anyone they operate as the Spirit wills through willing vessels.

True, but you have no scriptural basis to remove the others. It is false teaching to claim the gifts God set in the church are past!

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

The verse Jesus Christ.. the same.. yesterday. .etc...

Is not about spiritual gifts. The context is God's surety of His promises.

God flooded the world.. and then promised not to do it again

God has the Old Testament way of serving and put that away with the NT way of serving.

God has dealt differently to men over time .

 

[Wordsmith]

The verse Jesus Christ.. the same.. yesterday. .etc...

Is not about spiritual gifts. The context is God's surety of His promises.

God flooded the world.. and then promised not to do it again

God has the Old Testament way of serving and put that away with the NT way of serving.

God has dealt differently to men over time .

You still haven’t made a scriptural case for your position. The verse is about the nature of God.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. I’m sure you won’t like this one either but in any event the gifts of the Spirit are still with the church in congregations that allow The Spirit to move freely unhampered by unbelief and false doctrine.
The word gifts in Romans 11:29 is “charismata” in Greek Strongs 5486

 

[360watt]

You still haven’t made a scriptural case for your position. The verse is about the nature of God.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. I’m sure you won’t like this one either but in any event the gifts of the Spirit are still with the church in congregations that allow The Spirit to move freely unhampered by unbelief and false doctrine.
The word gifts in Romans 11:29 is “charismata” in Greek Strongs 5486

Well it usually comes down to what the cessation point is that is put in 1 co 13.

Some look at it as Jesus coming back...the 'face to face'

I think the 2nd coming does not fit the context of prophecy tongues and knowledge gifts coming to completion.

The complete revelation of God's Word I think does fit the context.

Face to face... Is the bible being a mirror to a person of who they are in God's eyes.

The 'perfect law of liberty '

 

[Wordsmith]

The complete revelation of God's Word I think does fit the context.

You and a lot of other Christians think that but can you prove it from scripture. I don’t think you can but I will be watching and waiting for that post. Our Bible does not reference a completed canon as the end of anything especially gifts God gave the church. That is a doctrine of man. I really don’t understand why so many Christians work so hard to try and take the supernatural power of God out of the church.

 

[makesends]

You and a lot of other Christians think that but can you prove it from scripture. I don’t think you can but I will be watching and waiting for that post. Our Bible does not reference a completed canon as the end of anything especially gifts God gave the church. That is a doctrine of man. I really don’t understand why so many Christians work so hard to try and take the supernatural power of God out of the church.

I really don't understand why so many Christians need God to do the big flashy shiny loud strong bright wow in order to be God. Haven't you witnessed God using the foolish, the unfit, the wrong, the dangerous, even the disastrous —to accomplish precisely what he set out from the beginning to do?

 

[360watt]

You and a lot of other Christians think that but can you prove it from scripture. I don’t think you can but I will be watching and waiting for that post. Our Bible does not reference a completed canon as the end of anything especially gifts God gave the church. That is a doctrine of man. I really don’t understand why so many Christians work so hard to try and take the supernatural power of God out of the church.

Context of 1 co 13 is prophecy tongues and knowledge gifts compared to the permanency of faith hope and love gifts. It is not about Jesus' return.

That which is perfect... Or the perfect thing.. completes tongues prophecy and knowledge gifts.

Jesus was never incomplete in His ministry. The revelation of God's Word was.

Have a read of what Civic put up from got questions.org... that is the scriptural basis there.

1co 13 is not the only scripture. You can see in scripture the mention of sign gifts gets less and less in the NT as you progress thru reading. Chronologically..they die out in mention.

Anyway, this will just go round and round. The key thing is being objective, not subjective about this.

 

[Wordsmith]

I really don't understand why so many Christians need God to do the big flashy shiny loud strong bright wow in order to be God. Haven't you witnessed God using the foolish, the unfit, the wrong, the dangerous, even the disastrous —to accomplish precisely what he set out from the beginning to do?

I think you really have a wrong impression of the nature of God. God doesn't need to "do the big flashy shiny and loud strong bright wow" to be God. You have total gone off of the rails on this! The person suffering from cancer does not need God to be flashy so they can see a sign! They want a miracle from God because they need a miracle from a God who loves them. God can turn any bad situation for good but this error riddled teaching has caused the church to miss God's best for the church.

If you don't believe unbelief can hinder God :

Mark 6:4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Jesus wasn't being flashy He was being merciful!

Matthew 9:27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou son of David, have mercy on us.

28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.