Can you be saved without believing, understanding, or having heard about 'justification by faith'?

[TB2]

True or False?

(Various quotes from the Internet)

"For Paul it is not the doctrine of justification that is ‘the power of God for salvation’ (Rom. 1:16), but the gospel of Jesus Christ."

"It is perfectly possible to be saved by believing in Jesus Christ without ever having heard of justification by faith."

"By “the gospel” Paul does not mean “justification by faith.” He means the announcement that the crucified and risen Jesus is Lord. To believe this message—to give believing allegiance to Jesus as Messiah and Lord—is to be justified in the present by faith (whether or not one has even heard of justification by faith). Justification by faith is a second-order doctrine: To believe it is both to have assurance (believing that one will be vindicated on the last day [Romans 5:1-5]) and to know that one belongs in the single family of God, called to share table fellowship with all other believers without distinction (Galatians 2:11-21)."

"But one is not justified by faith by believing in justification by faith, but by believing in Jesus."

Agree? Disagree?

 

[prism]

A person is saved after coming under conviction of their sinfulness, being revealed the Son as Savior and placing their faith in Christ Jesus. It is not necessary to know the doctrine of justification by faith alone, just that there is no salvation without faith in Jesus death for one's forgiveness.
Am I understanding the question?

 

[donadams]

My question is similar, about faith alone.

If salvation is by “faith alone” is it possible to be saved while at the same time hate God?

Cos “faith alone” not love of God is required.

I say is it possible not is it probable

Thanks

 

[EarlyActs]

A person is saved after coming under conviction of their sinfulness, being revealed the Son as Savior and placing their faith in Christ Jesus. It is not necessary to know the doctrine of justification by faith alone, just that there is no salvation without faith in Jesus death for one's forgiveness.
Am I understanding the question?

But actually, there isn't anyone, says Romans, who doesn't struggle with the issues of justification. You may come to the right conclusion without hearing the expression, but that right conclusion will be that the justification from our sins must come from God rather than ourselves.

 

[Red Baker]

Can you be saved without believing, understanding, or having heard about 'justification by faith'?​

A better question would be~"Can one be born again without ever hearing of Jesus Christ?" The answer is absolutely.

 

[Red Baker]

When Were You Saved?​

This common question tries to pin eternal life down to some act at some point in time. Is this Biblical? Did the apostles ever ask this question? How would they answer such a question? Weren’t we all saved at the cross?​

Let’s ask Paul the question.​

Paul said he was saved before the world began (II Tim 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (I Tim 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (I Tim 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Rom 13:11).

Can you believe it? Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. And this is the key to understanding our wonderful salvation in Jesus Christ.

Since God saves sinners in stages, or phases, we must not limit salvation to just one idea or one event at one time. Paul saw his own salvation occurring in five phases.

It used to be called the Ordo Salutis of salvation, which means the order of salvation; but it is not studied or preached much any more. We live in the perilous times of the last days, when men no longer want sound doctrine preached to them (II Tim 3:1 – 4:4). They prefer fables over truth, so the true doctrine of salvation has been almost lost from the earth.

Everyone talks about “getting saved,” but no one can explain it from the Bible. There are “invitations” and “decisions” and “methods” for salvation, but none of these words or ideas are from the Bible.

Paul clearly taught five phases of salvation. Let us learn the five phases briefly, then study two charts with the Bible proof and explanation. If you love understanding, you will love the charts.

The ETERNAL PHASE is God’s plan and choice from eternity to allow sin into the world and to save His elect from it. Since He is eternal and sovereign, God planned in eternity all that He does in time. There are no surprises to God. He planned to allow sin, so that He could display His glorious grace in saving His elect from it and displaying His power and wrath on the rest.

The LEGAL PHASE is God’s work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. His perfect holiness and justice cannot overlook sins and acquit wicked men. He must punish their sins in Another, even Jesus Christ. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.

The VITAL PHASE is God’s application of these benefits to us personally and individually. Though He planned to save us from eternity and legally did so with Christ’s death on the cross, we still have a depraved and wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness. This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime during our lives.

The PRACTICAL PHASE is our response to His salvation. He sends His Spirit into our hearts, and we cry “Abba, Father.” With new hearts from regeneration, we seek the truth and love it when we hear it. We hear the gospel, and we believe it. We want to be baptized to show Him our love. We want to know more of what we can do to please Him, and we gratefully cherish all His promises, which give us comfort and peace now.

The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies, and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future.

Now, when someone asks you, “When were you saved?” you should ask him which phase he is asking about! You were saved before creation in God’s elective plan; you were saved at the cross in His legal provision; you were saved at an unknown time in your life by the Spirit’s regeneration; you were saved to knowledge and assurance of the truth by the gospel; and you will yet be saved at our Lord’s coming. Glory! J. C. Crosby, a friend of mine.

 

[prism]

I say is it possible not is it probable

Both carry a percentage, so what is the difference?
God doesn't work with percentages, only certainties.

 

[prism]

But actually, there isn't anyone, says Romans, who doesn't struggle with the issues of justification. You may come to the right conclusion without hearing the expression, but that right conclusion will be that the justification from our sins must come from God rather than ourselves.

Wouldn't the right conclusion be, 'we are guilty, He declares as 'not guilty' those who call upon the name of the Lord'? Understanding the issue of justification doesn't justify us, rather, faith in Jesus justifies us.

 

[prism]

A better question would be~"Can one be born again without ever hearing of Jesus Christ?" The answer is absolutely.

Does that jive with Scripture?

Romans 10:13-14 NASB95
for "Whoever WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." [14] How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

 

[Red Baker]

Does that jive with Scripture?

Romans 10:13-14 NASB95
for "Whoever WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." [14] How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

I would not have posted it if it could not be supported with the scriptures.

Question for you: "In what sense is Paul using the word saved in Romans 10:13?"

I can assure you saved is not being used in a regenerating sense.

 

[fastfredy0]

Can you be saved without believing, understanding, or having heard about 'justification by faith'?​

According to most theologians the answer is YES.

"Can one be born again without ever hearing of Jesus Christ?" The answer is absolutely.

Kewl ... let's call your alternate means of salvation the "secret recipe"
... what is the secret recipe (giving scripture) saying what one must do to be saved with Christ?
... is there more that one secret recipe?
... and, if one is saved by your secret recipe and hears of Christ later and doesn't believe is one still saved?

If a person is:

1. saved by the secret recipe and
2. has not heard of Christ and
3. hearing of Christ and disbelieving that message void his salvation ...

... should an evangelist determine this and if so confirmed should the evangelist not tell the the person of Christ?

... which is more effective salvificly?: 1) the secret recipe or 2) hearing of Christ
(perhaps we should evangelize using the secret recipe exclusively if it be more effective)

 

[Soyeong]

True or False?

(Various quotes from the Internet)

"For Paul it is not the doctrine of justification that is ‘the power of God for salvation’ (Rom. 1:16), but the gospel of Jesus Christ."

"It is perfectly possible to be saved by believing in Jesus Christ without ever having heard of justification by faith."

"By “the gospel” Paul does not mean “justification by faith.” He means the announcement that the crucified and risen Jesus is Lord. To believe this message—to give believing allegiance to Jesus as Messiah and Lord—is to be justified in the present by faith (whether or not one has even heard of justification by faith). Justification by faith is a second-order doctrine: To believe it is both to have assurance (believing that one will be vindicated on the last day [Romans 5:1-5]) and to know that one belongs in the single family of God, called to share table fellowship with all other believers without distinction (Galatians 2:11-21)."

"But one is not justified by faith by believing in justification by faith, but by believing in Jesus."

Agree? Disagree?

True. Someone can have faith by repenting and obeying God's law in accordance with the Gospel of Christ (Matthew 4:15-23) and be justified by that faith regardless of their level of understanding that we are justified by faith. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so someone can believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law regardless of their level of understanding that they are justified by that faith (Acts 21:20).

 

[Soyeong]

My question is similar, about faith alone.

If salvation is by “faith alone” is it possible to be saved while at the same time hate God?

Cos “faith alone” not love of God is required.

I say is it possible not is it probable

Thanks

By doing good works, we are putting our faith in God's goodness as being the guide for how we should live our lives, we are expressing our love for God's goodness, we are experiencing the expression of God's goodness, and we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works give glory to God (Matthew 5:16), so the way to have faith in God is the same as the way to love God, so faith alone does require love of God.

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings FastFredyo~not so fast.........

Then Let me ask you this questions, maybe more, but start with this one:

How are the heathens born again?

if one is saved by your secret recipe and hears of Christ later and doesn't believe is one still saved?

That's where Romans 10:13 comes into play! All that have been ordained to life and born of the Spirit in time will come to Christ upon hearing.

Acts 13:47,48~"For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Acts 17:33,34~"So Paul departed from among them. Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

hearing of Christ and disbelieving that message void his salvation ...

Only means that his time to believe had not yet come, or he is not one of the elect. Much Like Paul hearing Stephen but later God called him based on his election of grace toward Paul.

should an evangelist determine this and if so confirmed should the evangelist not tell the the person of Christ?

God's secret election is hidden from us. A person like Manasseh may very well live a life of wickedness yet at the end be born of God, we just don't know.

2nd Chronicles Chapter 33​

1Manasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty and five years in Jerusalem:
2But did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, like unto the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.
3For he built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had broken down, and he reared up altars for Baalim, and made groves, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.
4Also he built altars in the house of the LORD, whereof the LORD had said, In Jerusalem shall my name be for ever.
5And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.
6And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
7And he set a carved image, the idol which he had made, in the house of God, of which God had said to David and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen before all the tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever:
8Neither will I any more remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.
9So Manasseh made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to err, and to do worse than the heathen, whom the LORD had destroyed before the children of Israel.
10And the LORD spake to Manasseh, and to his people: but they would not hearken.
11Wherefore the LORD brought upon them the captains of the host of the king of Assyria, which took Manasseh among the thorns, and bound him with fetters, and carried him to Babylon.
12And when he was in affliction, he besought the LORD his God, and humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers,
13And prayed unto him: and he was intreated of him, and heard his supplication, and brought him again to Jerusalem into his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD he was God.

... which is more effective salvificly?: 1) the secret recipe or 2) hearing of Christ
(perhaps we should evangelize using the secret recipe exclusively if it be more effective)

Leave such things into the hands of God, he will not lose one of his elect, no not one.

 

[prism]

I would not have posted it if it could not be supported with the scriptures.

I'd be interested in those Scriptures.

I can assure you saved is not being used in a regenerating sense.

But here was your statement.."A better question would be~"Can one be born again without ever hearing of Jesus Christ?" The answer is absolutely."
How would you define 'regeneration' if not 'born again'?

Question for you: "In what sense is Paul using the word saved in Romans 10:13?"

I can assure you saved is not being used in a regenerating sense.

If not in a regenerative sense, what lasting good is it?
His death and resurrection obtained eternal life for us (it was costly) that's the sense Paul was speaking of.

The sense in 10:13? To save them from self-righteousness by putting forth God's righteousness.

Romans 10:3 (KJV) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

 

[Soyeong]

A better question would be~"Can one be born again without ever hearing of Jesus Christ?" The answer is absolutely.

To be born again means to be someone who practices the nature of God, which are fruits of the Spirit, which is why those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not born again (1 John 3:4), and why those who are born of the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to God's law. The Son is the exact image of God's nature expressed through living in sinless obedience to God's law, so someone can't be born again while having no knowledge of him.

 

[3 Resurrections]

To be born again means to be someone who practices the nature of God, which are fruits of the Spirit,

The fruit of the Spirit is only evidence proving what the "plant" actually is before that fruit appears. Apple blossoms that turn into apples on a branch are proof that this is already an apple tree before that fruit makes an appearance.

, so someone can't be born again while having no knowledge of him.

We are not regenerated because of our level of knowledge about Christ, or salvation would turn into an IQ test with bragging rights about who gets the highest score.

 

[makesends]

True or False?

(Various quotes from the Internet)

"For Paul it is not the doctrine of justification that is ‘the power of God for salvation’ (Rom. 1:16), but the gospel of Jesus Christ."

"It is perfectly possible to be saved by believing in Jesus Christ without ever having heard of justification by faith."

"By “the gospel” Paul does not mean “justification by faith.” He means the announcement that the crucified and risen Jesus is Lord. To believe this message—to give believing allegiance to Jesus as Messiah and Lord—is to be justified in the present by faith (whether or not one has even heard of justification by faith). Justification by faith is a second-order doctrine: To believe it is both to have assurance (believing that one will be vindicated on the last day [Romans 5:1-5]) and to know that one belongs in the single family of God, called to share table fellowship with all other believers without distinction (Galatians 2:11-21)."

"But one is not justified by faith by believing in justification by faith, but by believing in Jesus."

Agree? Disagree?

Let me put it like this. If one is saved as a result of some sufficient degree of understanding, we are all lost. There is no 'enough' — saving faith is generated by the Spirit of God. Not by the intelligence, wisdom, knowledge and understanding, of mere creatures.

 

[fastfredy0]

Greetings FastFredyo~not so fast.........

Then Let me ask you this questions, maybe more, but start with this one:

non responsive to my questions .... not to worry, my questions were for self-entertainment as opposed to an expectation of legitimate answers. Where's that IGNORE function.

 

[EarlyActs]

Wouldn't the right conclusion be, 'we are guilty, He declares as 'not guilty' those who call upon the name of the Lord'? Understanding the issue of justification doesn't justify us, rather, faith in Jesus justifies us

I was trying to say that you don't have to use the 'right words' but that those are still the issues you will wrestle with, and Romans says so.