Can We Determine the Age of the Universe and Earth Biblically?

[EarlyActs]

But if you are going to apply days 1 - 3 as God recreating what was already there as if some cataclysm caused that earth to be overflowed with water... then what was God's judgment on it for?

Indeed, how can Adam be blamed for bringing death and disorder into creation because of sin if it was already there?

If there was no old earth and no age gap, I am not sure how you can say that it was already there when pushing that belief.

Because there is no purpose for it to exist until God finished the creation of earth that 3rd day after starting it on the 2nd day.

I believe you are having trouble reading scriptures as is and not seeing the power of God in creation.

So how about this? You ask Jesus Christ for help in seeing the truth in His words?

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

If there is no purpose for distant light to exist, why insist on it coming miraculously? Day 1 might be an ordinary arrival that contrasts God exploding matter randomly long ago with the precise placement of day 4s objects.

 

[EarlyActs]

Is that you quoting me because I cannot find it in my reply to you.

If you are saying that 2 P 3 is not about the flood, then you read 2 P 3 again without using somebody's commentary to do it for you.

P.S. Breaking up that one long reply to you in post # 409

Sorry.

I think I misunderstood your first line about 2P3

 

[EarlyActs]

Anyway, Jude's reference below is not testifying that the fallen angels are in that "prison" you had referred to for applying but are reserved for judgment to that lake of fire.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Then you are not aware that Peter used the term Tartarus about the prison in the blackness of space. It is not where they are tortured but rather confined. Since ‘darkest blackness’ has existed since the lifeless objects, I believe there was a rebellion well before earth, and earth may have been one of these.

It also happens to be in Greek myth where the evil Titans were sent. This is why we use literary lexicons.

Sorry if you are an nfl fan in Nashville!

 

[ChristB4us]

The skeptics said that creation had not been disrupted. They were only speaking of earth and all the way back to its start. It does not appear to be connected to the distant universe, even by Peter.

If that is how you read Peter by those skeptics and educated scholars, may I ask you to check with Jesus Christ, please? And read Peter again.

 

[EarlyActs]

That prison you referred to should be read in context;

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

There is no point for Jesus to preach unto fallen angels as if they are the ones in that prison. That prison is Abraham's bosom aka Paradise, where the thief met Jesus that day and where the souls of those Old Testament saints were that He preached unto them in that prison since they were in a holding place until Jesus came to preach the gospel unto them.

This all ties in with Hebrews 11:8-16 in what those Old Testament saints were waiting for in that holding place which is like saying a prison as Abraham's bosom aka Paradise because of this truth below at the time Jesus was on earth.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Luke 16:19-31 has Jesus talking about the afterlife and Abraham's bosom which is beneath the earth and across that great gulf from hell and 1 Samuel 28 th chapter testifies to King Saul consulting with a medium to "bring up" the spirit of the prophet Samuel whom did prophesied his and his sons ends in the coming field of battle and so that is the prison spoken of in 2 Peter 3:19 when read in context that Jesus preached to.

You jumped Peters. Tartarus is in 2 P2. You read from 1P2

 

[EarlyActs]

After His resurrection and His ascension, He brought the captivity captive to Heaven with Him so that prison aka Paradise and all the inhabitants are now in Heaven per 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 awaiting the pre great tribulation rapture event for when they will inherit their mansion in their resurrected forms in that City of God in Heaven at the table of the Marriage Supper per Luke 13:24-30 since that is still their hope they are waiting for per Hebrews 11:8-16

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)



I hope in Him that breaking up my reply in post # 409 helped as I am not sure I can break up this last reply in making the point any further.

The events of Eph 4 have nothing to do with pre creation, creation or cataclysm. They are all during or after the resurrection

 

[EarlyActs]

If that is how you read Peter by those skeptics and educated scholars, may I ask you to check with Jesus Christ, please? And read Peter again.

There is no statement specifically by Christ about these things.

The creation in 2P3 was the earth . As he says, the universe was there from long ago, unrelated. Creation is all the things that are in Gen 1, and all the objects in v14-17 are local, and they all signal.

This is the main misunderstanding about Gen 1 that I feature in my short book.

If you know some text or passage that says otherwise, do tell.

 

[ChristB4us]

How about if you explain why you say the universe did not exist til day 4?

There was no purpose for the universe to exists until day 4 as ordained by the Lord.

When you read Genesis 1:1 as including everything in creation at this very beginning of that first day after verse 1, then if time began as that beginning in verse 1, why would there be a need for the "distant" universe let alone a universe to exists?

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

If you apply verse 14 as is, there were no lights in the firmament of heaven before that day. How can there be a distant universe as that would mean there were already lights in the heaven?

To make our solar system as the only local creation or recreation of God is not testifying to the power of God at all in creation for how He can speak and it is brought forth... out of nothing.

 

[ChristB4us]

Re recreating
Bc 2P3 says it was formed like pottery; the verb is from pottery usage. (this is why we use literary lexicons; I use the 900 page one ‘of the NT and other early Christian literature.’)

The pottery image at least allows for some time before day 2. Not evolution, just some time.

Then you are forgetting the other elements of His words designating that first day as evening and morning that first day and everyday since and so there was no period of time before that 2nd day, thus proving that you are misapplying His words for how it is used in that creation account as many scholars are for applying Jeremiah 4:23 to mean the same thing as Genesis 1:2 when ignoring the evening and morning each and every day from that first day as marking the beginning.

 

[ChristB4us]

Sin existed since the angelic revolt. Human sin did not exist until after creation.

Well, when did this angelic revolt took place because Satan did not fall until he had tempted Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden.

Here is a reference to what Satan is currently doing right now as accusing the brethren until the pre great tribulation rapture event for when he and his fallen angels will be cast out.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

So Satan that old serpent. fell in the Garden of Eden since he still has access to God's throne in the third Heaven to accuse us daily.

Genesis 3:1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Now does Genesis 3:1 read like this serpent has fallen yet? No, but we have a clue for why he did what he did in tempting Eve being more subtil than all the beasts of the field.

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Look how God cursed the serpent as if he was not cursed before.

Genesis 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Reads to me that God was also giving the promise of the seed which will bruise Satan's head whereas only bruising the seed's heel.

Satan did not fall before that.

 

[ChristB4us]

The events of Eph 4 have nothing to do with pre creation, creation or cataclysm. They are all during or after the resurrection

I was explaining the prison you had referenced from 1 Peter 3:19 when in context, that was about Christ going to that holding place called Paradise also known as Abraham's bosom for where the Old Testament saints were in holding, waiting in hope for the promised seed to bring them to God, hence bringing the captivity captive in Ephesians reference.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Your applying prison in 1 Peter 3:19 was not about fallen angels and so whatever source you got that point of view from is wrong.

 

[ChristB4us]

There is no statement specifically by Christ about these things.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Reads to me that Jesus confirmed creation week. That leaves no wiggle room for any period of time before day 2 as you seem to be misled to believe.

The creation in 2P3 was the earth . As he says, the universe was there from long ago, unrelated. Creation is all the things that are in Gen 1, and all the objects in v14-17 are local, and they all signal.

Why don't you cite the specific verses for that because the ones below made a reference to the beginning of creation in verse 4.

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

That include the lights in the heavens in the distant universe and not just the local.

This is the main misunderstanding about Gen 1 that I feature in my short book.

If you know some text or passage that says otherwise, do tell.

Again, cite the verses in 2 P 3 that you seem to apply as going beyond the local universe as if before creation when there can be no period time to elapse before day 2 when there was evening and morning that first day and every day since>

 

[ChristB4us]

You jumped Peters. Tartarus is in 2 P2. You read from 1P2

Where is Tartarus or that prison in 2 P 2. Cite the specific reference & Bible version now because I do not find it in the KJV.

 

[ChristB4us]

This is the main misunderstanding about Gen 1 that I feature in my short book.

If you know some text or passage that says otherwise, do tell.

May I caution you not to let pride keep you from reproofs as found in His words? Trust Jesus Christ as your personal Good Shepherd & Friend to help you to avoid that.

 

[EarlyActs]

There was no purpose for the universe to exists until day 4 as ordained by the Lord.

When you read Genesis 1:1 as including everything in creation at this very beginning of that first day after verse 1, then if time began as that beginning in verse 1, why would there be a need for the "distant" universe let alone a universe to exists?

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

If you apply verse 14 as is, there were no lights in the firmament of heaven before that day. How can there be a distant universe as that would mean there were already lights in the heaven?

To make our solar system as the only local creation or recreation of God is not testifying to the power of God at all in creation for how He can speak and it is brought forth... out of nothing.

You don’t know the recitation format of the text. It is a study by Rabbi Cassio that saved the text from German critics.

 

[EarlyActs]

Well, when did this angelic revolt took place because Satan did not fall until he had tempted Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden.

Here is a reference to what Satan is currently doing right now as accusing the brethren until the pre great tribulation rapture event for when he and his fallen angels will be cast out.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

So Satan that old serpent. fell in the Garden of Eden since he still has access to God's throne in the third Heaven to accuse us daily.

Genesis 3:1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Now does Genesis 3:1 read like this serpent has fallen yet? No, but we have a clue for why he did what he did in tempting Eve being more subtil than all the beasts of the field.

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Look how God cursed the serpent as if he was not cursed before.

Genesis 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Reads to me that God was also giving the promise of the seed which will bruise Satan's head whereas only bruising the seed's heel.

Satan did not fall before that.

There is no proof that Satan revolted then. I think it was earlier and he was trying to get back a following.

 

[EarlyActs]

Well, when did this angelic revolt took place because Satan did not fall until he had tempted Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden.

Here is a reference to what Satan is currently doing right now as accusing the brethren until the pre great tribulation rapture event for when he and his fallen angels will be cast out.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

So Satan that old serpent. fell in the Garden of Eden since he still has access to God's throne in the third Heaven to accuse us daily.

Genesis 3:1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Now does Genesis 3:1 read like this serpent has fallen yet? No, but we have a clue for why he did what he did in tempting Eve being more subtil than all the beasts of the field.

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Look how God cursed the serpent as if he was not cursed before.

Genesis 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Reads to me that God was also giving the promise of the seed which will bruise Satan's head whereas only bruising the seed's heel.

Satan did not fall before that.

Don’t prove ancient things by lines about the future from the Rev. does that make sense?

In a normal reading, the fall of Satan in that Rev passage is in the future.

 

[EarlyActs]

I was explaining the prison you had referenced from 1 Peter 3:19 when in context, that was about Christ going to that holding place called Paradise also known as Abraham's bosom for where the Old Testament saints were in holding, waiting in hope for the promised seed to bring them to God, hence bringing the captivity captive in Ephesians reference.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Your applying prison in 1 Peter 3:19 was not about fallen angels and so whatever source you got that point of view from is wrong.

No the rebellious angels in 2P2 and Jude are held in hell.

There’s not much point in hearing from you.

 

[EarlyActs]

Where is Tartarus or that prison in 2 P 2. Cite the specific reference & Bible version now because I do not find it in the KJV.

Get a commentary that refers to the Greek.

 

[EarlyActs]

May I caution you not to let pride keep you from reproofs as found in His words? Trust Jesus Christ as your personal Good Shepherd & Friend to help you to avoid that.

I already believe Christ is my righteousness. That has nothing to do with the actual meaning of a certain text.