Can We Determine the Age of the Universe and Earth Biblically?

[EarlyActs]

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Reads to me that Jesus confirmed creation week. That leaves no wiggle room for any period of time before day 2 as you seem to be misled to believe.

Why don't you cite the specific verses for that because the ones below made a reference to the beginning of creation in verse 4.

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

That include the lights in the heavens in the distant universe and not just the local.

Again, cite the verses in 2 P 3 that you seem to apply as going beyond the local universe as if before creation when there can be no period time to elapse before day 2 when there was evening and morning that first day and every day since>

NOthing about the sabbath quote/saying by Jesus has any bearing on why the earth was already there. You really don't follow a line a reason.

 

[EarlyActs]

I was explaining the prison you had referenced from 1 Peter 3:19 when in context, that was about Christ going to that holding place called Paradise also known as Abraham's bosom for where the Old Testament saints were in holding, waiting in hope for the promised seed to bring them to God, hence bringing the captivity captive in Ephesians reference.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Your applying prison in 1 Peter 3:19 was not about fallen angels and so whatever source you got that point of view from is wrong.

I wasn't referring to 1 P 3 at all.

 

[EarlyActs]

Then you are forgetting the other elements of His words designating that first day as evening and morning that first day and everyday since and so there was no period of time before that 2nd day, thus proving that you are misapplying His words for how it is used in that creation account as many scholars are for applying Jeremiah 4:23 to mean the same thing as Genesis 1:2 when ignoring the evening and morning each and every day from that first day as marking the beginning.

No the existing situation of 1:2 is before the 1st day which began at evening. The sense of the verb is that it already was as described. This is the recitation formula all through Genesis until ch 39 when Joseph no longer needed it because he was writing.

 

[EarlyActs]

There was no purpose for the universe to exists until day 4 as ordained by the Lord.

When you read Genesis 1:1 as including everything in creation at this very beginning of that first day after verse 1, then if time began as that beginning in verse 1, why would there be a need for the "distant" universe let alone a universe to exists?

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

If you apply verse 14 as is, there were no lights in the firmament of heaven before that day. How can there be a distant universe as that would mean there were already lights in the heaven?

To make our solar system as the only local creation or recreation of God is not testifying to the power of God at all in creation for how He can speak and it is brought forth... out of nothing.

You are getting worse. You don't even seem to know there was light on the 1st day that is not day 4 light. If you don't even know these basic facts about Gen 1, you need to start over.

God made the distant world at another time as 2 P 3 says. Best if you wait for the whole picture, when my short book is done. It's called the Young Local Creation Week

 

[ChristB4us]

You don’t know the recitation format of the text. It is a study by Rabbi Cassio that saved the text from German critics.

How about share your knowledge of what that firmament is that was in the midst of the water that divided the water, winding up with one firmament from the other firmament being the heaven, the sky as in the upper atmosphere?

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

I'd say that firmament in verse 6 & 7 is gravity for how it divided the water, creating the heaven, the skies above as that other firmament, from the other firmament below, the water planet... with the firmament of gravity as still separating the two.

 

[ChristB4us]

There is no proof that Satan revolted then. I think it was earlier and he was trying to get back a following.

How can it be earlier when scriptures testified of Satan as the serpent being more subtil than all the beasts of the field? There is nothing to testify otherwise that he was cursed until God did so for tempting Adam and Eve. God made no reference to an earlier curse on that serpent as if he had fallen earlier. Indeed, the removal of his legs to crawl on his belly sounds like the first time that serpent was cursed ever.

 

[ChristB4us]

Don’t prove ancient things by lines about the future from the Rev. does that make sense?

In a normal reading, the fall of Satan in that Rev passage is in the future.

I am testifying by the scriptures that Satan and his fallen angels ae still loose and running about and even accusing the brethren in Heaven until the pre great tribulation rapture event for when they will be cast out for the festivity of the Marriage supper to begin without them running the momentous occasion.

And so you applying 2 P 3 and Jude about the devil & his fallen angels being chained as if in "prison" is really about how they are judged to go to the lake of fire in the future no matter what.

 

[ChristB4us]

Get a commentary that refers to the Greek.

No. The reason is because many Biblical Greek scholars cannot agree with each other in how they translate the Greek.

I'd rather go to Jesus Christ for discerning and understanding the truth in His words.

 

[ChristB4us]

I already believe Christ is my righteousness. That has nothing to do with the actual meaning of a certain text.

I did not ask you about believing in Christ as your righteousness.

I ask you to trust Jesus Christ as your personal Good Shepherd & Friend to guide you through the Holy Spirit in you to see the truth in His words.

Nowhere in scriptures did it tell believers to go to the Greek text to understanding His words.

You had agreed with me that the behemoth is a dinosaur in Job 40:15-17 in spite of the educated Biblical scholars in the KJV footnotes that believe it to be an elephant, alligator, or a hippo. My point is, do not rely on educated scholars and teachers of the Greek text, let alone understanding His words to see the truth in His words..

 

[ChristB4us]

You are getting worse. You don't even seem to know there was light on the 1st day that is not day 4 light. If you don't even know these basic facts about Gen 1, you need to start over.

But I do know that the light on the first day was not any of the lights created the 4th day but the light on the first day established the evening and the morning that day and every day since.

God made the distant world at another time as 2 P 3 says.

You have yet to show that in 2 P 3.

Best if you wait for the whole picture, when my short book is done. It's called the Young Local Creation Week

Thanks to Jesus Christ, I already see the whole picture. Genesis 1:1 testify that God created the heavens and the earth which is the topic that runs through and ends in Genesis 2:3 and that means He created everything, including those distant sources of lights the 4th day for the purpose of "signs" which those distant stars are used for in the heavens.

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

 

[ChristB4us]

I wasn't referring to 1 P 3 at all.

You referred to the term prison about what those fallen angels were in which is the only one I found in scriptures in this regard to the epistles of Peter which was not about the angels at all.

And since you are going to outside sources regarding Tartarus, I am not going to consider them scriptures, let alone any part of the truth in scriptures.

 

[EarlyActs]

How about share your knowledge of what that firmament is that was in the midst of the water that divided the water, winding up with one firmament from the other firmament being the heaven, the sky as in the upper atmosphere?

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

I'd say that firmament in verse 6 & 7 is gravity for how it divided the water, creating the heaven, the skies above as that other firmament, from the other firmament below, the water planet... with the firmament of gravity as still separating the two.

Well, as you can imagine, I can't write 2 books at once. Do you understand that the Egyptians thought Ra sailed on a firmament each day, that it was water because it was blue? So Genesis 1 may be speaking their language to tell them how mistaken they are about God.

I totally understand if you don't accept that approach, but in the 3 talks of Kraus-Meyer-Lamoureux, you can see the Egyptian drawing of this at about 1hr 14th min. They definitely did.

If accepted, it means that at the time of preserving the Genesis story, those reciting it could not, during the cataclysm, distinguish between the firmament and vast amounts of water from the 'fountains.' But they thought they had an explanation of why the firmament was gone.

On the other hand, Dr. D. Faulkner believes that there may indeed be an edge to the outer universe so that radiation comes back from it, and that it is water. In 1965 Wilson & ? found Cosmic Microwave Background coming toward us from all directions, and this may be from water. Problem: the firmament is gone after the cataclysm. Cornerstone TV Network

Another problem, the local signal objects are in the firmament. They are not out at the edge at all.

 

[ChristB4us]

Well, as you can imagine, I can't write 2 books at once. Do you understand that the Egyptians thought Ra sailed on a firmament each day, that it was water because it was blue? So Genesis 1 may be speaking their language to tell them how mistaken they are about God.

I totally understand if you don't accept that approach, but in the 3 talks of Kraus-Meyer-Lamoureux, you can see the Egyptian drawing of this at about 1hr 14th min. They definitely did.

If accepted, it means that at the time of preserving the Genesis story, those reciting it could not, during the cataclysm, distinguish between the firmament and vast amounts of water from the 'fountains.' But they thought they had an explanation of why the firmament was gone.

On the other hand, Dr. D. Faulkner believes that there may indeed be an edge to the outer universe so that radiation comes back from it, and that it is water. In 1965 Wilson & ? found Cosmic Microwave Background coming toward us from all directions, and this may be from water. Problem: the firmament is gone after the cataclysm. Cornerstone TV Network

Another problem, the local signal objects are in the firmament. They are not out at the edge at all.

When you give pause to other line of thoughts then, is your book merely offering a supposition to consider rather than saying this is true?

If you say your book is true, and later, you find out that it isn't true, you may regret writing that book. Something for you to consider.

 

[EarlyActs]

When you give pause to other line of thoughts then, is your book merely offering a supposition to consider rather than saying this is true?

If you say your book is true, and later, you find out that it isn't true, you may regret writing that book. Something for you to consider.

Faulkner has 4 decades as a young earth creationist and astrophysicist. What he has recently held is almost too ridiculous to repeat. 1, that some water went all the way to the edge of the universe, but is where we are supposed to think the local objects are located. 2, he didn't seem to notice that only the local objects are there in the firmament. Light from elsewhere had already arrived! And that they were for communication.

btw he did recognize the literary template: v1 is not action; there are not two creations of the universe (v1 and v14). This is what Cassuto cleared up.

So, what is your explanation of the end of the firmament during the cataclysm, if it had the local celestial objects in it? It's gone. It's OK to say it was a long-running miracle; I can understand that. But it also means you would have the complication of a double atmosphere, 1 at the surface for the surface and the other up above so that the visual impact was that the local objects was 'in' it.

 

[ChristB4us]

Faulkner has 4 decades as a young earth creationist and astrophysicist. What he has recently held is almost too ridiculous to repeat. 1, that some water went all the way to the edge of the universe, but is where we are supposed to think the local objects are located.

Is this under the assumption that God had to use what was presently available to create the universe, let alone your belief of the local objects?

How do you apply this then?

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Although you can do a search on the internet where science has found water on asteroid, the sunny parts of the moon, and James Webb telescope found water in a rolling gas around an ultra hot star even, but I believe it is by His word is how the universe was created.

James Webb telescope finds water in roiling disk of gas around ultra-hot star for 1st time ever

2, he didn't seem to notice that only the local objects are there in the firmament. Light from elsewhere had already arrived! And that they were for communication.

Light was created on the first day to establish the evening and morning that first day thus the beginning and so there was no other light, otherwise, what would be the point of creating that light when the sun was created that 4th day? When God speaks that light into existence, it was not some distant light, now can it, when the first day was established by that light as there was evening and morning that first day?

btw he did recognize the literary template: v1 is not action; there are not two creations of the universe (v1 and v14). This is what Cassuto cleared up.

No. There was no two creations of the universe in vs 1 & vs 14 because in vs 1, the earth did not exists in Genesis 1:2 that first day and so Genesis 1:1 is the topic with the following verses all the way to Genesis 2:3 in how God created the heavens and the earth to rest on the 7th day

So, what is your explanation of the end of the firmament during the cataclysm, if it had the local celestial objects in it? It's gone. It's OK to say it was a long-running miracle; I can understand that. But it also means you would have the complication of a double atmosphere, 1 at the surface for the surface and the other up above so that the visual impact was that the local objects was 'in' it.

Here is a question for you; why didn't God said it was good the second day? Every other 6 days of creation, He said it was good but not the 2nd day. So why did He not say it was good the second day?

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Because God was not done creating the earth yet when on the first day, He created day by that light as there was evening and morning that first day and so there was no gap of time when the second day came and there was evening and morning that 2nd day for when He created a firmament in the midst of the water TO DIVIDE the water from which I say that firmament was gravity as it established the water planet "Earth" with an upper atmosphere, the skies, hence the first heaven.

We know that pneuma is a Greek term for spirit and it does not always mean the Holy Spirit and so in this case of the firmament in the midst of the water that causes the water to divide is called gravity.

Then the 3rd day God laid the foundation of the earth and He was finished creating the earth that day to call it good.

Then He created the universe by His words and not just local celestial objects either.

 

[EarlyActs]

Is this under the assumption that God had to use what was presently available to create the universe, let alone your belief of the local objects?

How do you apply this then?

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Although you can do a search on the internet where science has found water on asteroid, the sunny parts of the moon, and James Webb telescope found water in a rolling gas around an ultra hot star even, but I believe it is by His word is how the universe was created.

James Webb telescope finds water in roiling disk of gas around ultra-hot star for 1st time ever

Light was created on the first day to establish the evening and morning that first day thus the beginning and so there was no other light, otherwise, what would be the point of creating that light when the sun was created that 4th day? When God speaks that light into existence, it was not some distant light, now can it, when the first day was established by that light as there was evening and morning that first day?

No. There was no two creations of the universe in vs 1 & vs 14 because in vs 1, the earth did not exists in Genesis 1:2 that first day and so Genesis 1:1 is the topic with the following verses all the way to Genesis 2:3 in how God created the heavens and the earth to rest on the 7th day

Here is a question for you; why didn't God said it was good the second day? Every other 6 days of creation, He said it was good but not the 2nd day. So why did He not say it was good the second day?

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Because God was not done creating the earth yet when on the first day, He created day by that light as there was evening and morning that first day and so there was no gap of time when the second day came and there was evening and morning that 2nd day for when He created a firmament in the midst of the water TO DIVIDE the water from which I say that firmament was gravity as it established the water planet "Earth" with an upper atmosphere, the skies, hence the first heaven.

We know that pneuma is a Greek term for spirit and it does not always mean the Holy Spirit and so in this case of the firmament in the midst of the water that causes the water to divide is called gravity.

Then the 3rd day God laid the foundation of the earth and He was finished creating the earth that day to call it good.

Then He created the universe by His words and not just local celestial objects either.

Please one topic at a time.

re the earth before day 1. You are not reading clearly. The Hebrew construct is completed not continuing. It was there.

You are not familiar with the background statements in the recitation method. I have 4 examples in the book. There almost always is background information given.

You really can't hold 2 thoughts at a time. God did make the distant universe by speaking, (Ps 33) but there are indicators it was not when the local stuff was set to make the earth work mechanically (balance tides, light, gravity). I agreed it is God speaking, but Peter says it was two distinct times.

God spoke it all into existence (confirmed by Peter who sees it as two distinct but non-evolutionary times) but that does not mean it has to be all at once. There can be things we can see as evidence. The edge of the universe, by all metrics is way out there, and God might have suspended normal light movement, but why? Why not make the lifeless universe long ago, and when the light arrives at Gen 1, it is not the lights of day 4, it is day 1? I can't imagine any problem with that which violates Gen 1 and human existence. But it does bother people to think other things might have been going on in the universe before life on earth. Not me. "The universe is full of beings and entities" --Goodrick, Multnomah Bible U., Greek, commenting on Jude and 2 P 2.

As you can see, there is significant evidence that there are young things around us, although not necessarily earth. Some of them are: ocean salinity, Plutos' ice, Saturn's surface, Jupiter's radiometry in 1985. There are also arguments that our sun is young. Or the depth of moon dust. We prob agree on their 'youth' but the outer universe is another thing, and the earth was there for a bit first.

 

[EarlyActs]

What is your explanation for the end of the firmament —it was the location of the local objects.

 

[EarlyActs]

Re “the earth did not exist in 1:2”

???

 

[EarlyActs]

Is this under the assumption that God had to use what was presently available to create the universe, let alone your belief of the local objects?

How do you apply this then?

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Although you can do a search on the internet where science has found water on asteroid, the sunny parts of the moon, and James Webb telescope found water in a rolling gas around an ultra hot star even, but I believe it is by His word is how the universe was created.

James Webb telescope finds water in roiling disk of gas around ultra-hot star for 1st time ever

Light was created on the first day to establish the evening and morning that first day thus the beginning and so there was no other light, otherwise, what would be the point of creating that light when the sun was created that 4th day? When God speaks that light into existence, it was not some distant light, now can it, when the first day was established by that light as there was evening and morning that first day?

No. There was no two creations of the universe in vs 1 & vs 14 because in vs 1, the earth did not exists in Genesis 1:2 that first day and so Genesis 1:1 is the topic with the following verses all the way to Genesis 2:3 in how God created the heavens and the earth to rest on the 7th day

Here is a question for you; why didn't God said it was good the second day? Every other 6 days of creation, He said it was good but not the 2nd day. So why did He not say it was good the second day?

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Because God was not done creating the earth yet when on the first day, He created day by that light as there was evening and morning that first day and so there was no gap of time when the second day came and there was evening and morning that 2nd day for when He created a firmament in the midst of the water TO DIVIDE the water from which I say that firmament was gravity as it established the water planet "Earth" with an upper atmosphere, the skies, hence the first heaven.

We know that pneuma is a Greek term for spirit and it does not always mean the Holy Spirit and so in this case of the firmament in the midst of the water that causes the water to divide is called gravity.

Then the 3rd day God laid the foundation of the earth and He was finished creating the earth that day to call it good.

Then He created the universe by His words and not just local celestial objects either.

Re Webb discoveries:
There is no more chance of a star nursery rock having biological life than there is of evolution, so don’t miss-accuse. It exists bc God speaks it to exist, Ps 33.

This has nothing to do with how long the earth sat dark and covered before creation week.

To make distant objects long before the local ones is still by His word, so there is no question there. But they aren’t life as on earth. Hence the term lifeless.

If you had a scatter-painted canvas and an artistically finished pot displayed in a room , would you say the two pieces were produced the same way?

If you go to the beach and there are at least some scattered rocks, you might like the beach but it is random forces acting. In the case of the distant universe , you must add an explosion. So perhaps the better comparison of randomness is a fireworks burst.

Both of which are entirely different from an artistic pottery piece—the earth. Now add biological life to it!

Those are the nuances of how things were produced in 2P3.

Both happen at Gods command but not at the same time. And remember 2P3 is also famous for slamming 1 day and 365,000 days together and saying there is no difference to God. Really? What about a million? There is of course a difference to the mathematics of science.

If the light that arrived on day 1 was sourced from a distance then the text is very focused on events on earth and has no problem with vast time elsewhere.

And then in 1:14 we have the verb ‘to set in place’ about the local objects , not random forces at all. Engineering and design and some artistry, like eclipses!

 

[ChristB4us]

Please one topic at a time.

re the earth before day 1. You are not reading clearly. The Hebrew construct is completed not continuing. It was there.

Okay then, explain the second creation account;

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

Genesis 2:4 is stating the topic for the following verses which is a re-enactment of the 6th day of creation but in more detail as to where the generations " of mankind" had come from.

Proof of that is at the end of verse 5 as there was not a man to till the ground for why Gid created a mist to water the earth.

Now if Genesis 2:4 is the topic with the following verses in expounding on that topic, then so is Genesis 1:1 is that topic where the following verses was about how God did that in verse 1 as it concludes in Genesis 2:1-3 on that 7th day of creation which means there was no break or lapse of time in those days from day one to day two as there was evening and morning each day; 24 hours.

Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

So the second creation account PROVES how to apply Genesis 1:1 as the earth was not there and neither was the heavens in day one. All that was created that first day by that light, was to stablish the beginning, by its evening and morning that day as being what God mean; that very first day as in the beginning of time in creation.

And with evening and morning designating what a day is that first day, then there is no period of time lapsed between that first day and the second day as it literally took God 6 days to create the heavens and the earth and all the hosts of them to rest on the 7th day.