Can the external call of the gospel by itself produce faith in the heart of the natural man?

[Hazelelponi]

The only "evidence" for me was the unexpected power it had one day (in accompanying circumstances) when I read it, which it had never had before.

Thats cool.

 

[Eleanor]

Amen sister!

Well, when you're regenerated, isn't the gospel evidence?

The gospel isn't evidence if you can't believe it.

It was the power of the Holy Spirit that was the evidence of its truth, which then enabled me to believe the gospel.

The gospel is the object of my faith, not the source of it.

 

[Carbon]

It cannot.

Consider the description of the heart in its natural state.
“The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it? Jeremiah 17:9.
&
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, acts of adultery, other immoral sexual acts, thefts, false testimonies, and slanderous statements. Matthew 15:19.

What an awful picture of the natural heart, the human heart in the unrenewed state, unregenerate. People may not be totally overtly acting out sin, but the evil is there, deeply embedded and hidden there. And it is only restrained by the power of God.
Consider,
Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed quickly, therefore the hearts of the sons of mankind among them are fully given to do evil. Ecc 8:11.
&
This is an evil in everything that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for everyone. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of mankind are full of evil, and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterward they go to the dead. Ecc 9:3.

So you believe God's way is just helping people along? Then, once they believe show and teach them more?

Continued:

Scripture shows that the natural man, the natural state of the heart, is fully set to do evil, full of evil and madness, deceitful, desperately wicked. On the surface, it may all seem okay to the eyes. There may be kindness, affection, well-meaning kindness, but beneath the surface is deep, deep ungodliness.

In the natural man, there is no love of God, no affection for Jesus there, no thirst for holiness there. No mortification of sin and the flesh there. And until the Holy Spirit does His work of regeneration and creates all things new, all things will remain as they were, under the dominion of sin. The understanding is dark.
being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; Eph 4:18.

In that state (darkened), there can be no true knowledge of God and of Christ. All is spiritual darkness in the soul. The will is perverted, it is in opposition to God and holiness. It has no bias towards spiritual and heavenly things. Its natural bent and disposition is to evil, evil only, and continually evil.

 

[Carbon]

The gospel isn't evidence if you can't believe it.

Never said it was.

It was the power of the Holy Spirit that was the evidence of its truth, which then enabled me to believe the gospel.

The gospel is the object of my faith, not the source of it.

 

[Eleanor]

Never said it was.

I guess the way it worked for me is that evidence of the truth of Scripture came from the Holy Spirit, whereupon Scripture was the object of my faith, not the evidence for, nor the source of my faith.

 

[Carbon]

Continued:

Scripture shows that the natural man, the natural state of the heart, is fully set to do evil, full of evil and madness, deceitful, desperately wicked. On the surface, it may all seem okay to the eyes. There may be kindness, affection, well-meaning kindness, but beneath the surface is deep, deep ungodliness.

In the natural man, there is no love of God, no affection for Jesus there, no thirst for holiness there. No mortification of sin and the flesh there. And until the Holy Spirit does His work of regeneration and creates all things new, all things will remain as they were, under the dominion of sin. The understanding is dark.
being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; Eph 4:18.

In that state (darkened), there can be no true knowledge of God and of Christ. All is spiritual darkness in the soul. The will is perverted, it is in opposition to God and holiness. It has no bias towards spiritual and heavenly things. Its natural bent and disposition is to evil, evil only, and continually evil.

@Eternally-Grateful
There is more.

Scripture teaches that the natural mind is enmity against God: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Romans 8:7.

Paul states that the natural (carnal) mind is not only alienated from God, adverse to Him, but is actually enmity (this is very powerful). He represented the carnal mind as enmity itself, not an enemy. Which makes it a vivid and awful idea of man's state by nature. And an enemy may be reconciled, but enmity cannot. The enmity of the carnal heart is against God as the moral Governor of the universe. This is why we must be given a new heart through regeneration.

 

[Carbon]

I guess the way it worked for me is that evidence of the truth of Scripture came from the Holy Spirit, whereupon Scripture was the object of my faith, not the evidence for, nor the source of my faith.

Amen sister!

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Are you aware there are a couple of different types of faith?

Faith means to trust to have assurance.

When I came to faith in Christ I trusted his word and his promise. And I was assured he would keep his promise.

I think people make things to difficult

I believe in the simplicity that is in christ jesus

Again, John 3 and the Bronze serpent is a great example..

Now I do believe a person or persons who are born again can be gifted faith. Which is a gift of the HS. Like all the other gifts. I also know people who have this gift. They have a special way to trust things that seem greater than regular faith

@Eternally-Grateful
For example, there is a historical faith and there is a saving faith. Do you understand the difference?

Depends on context

Do I trust in history or Do I trust in God?

The jews trusted in the law. And history as they knew (and wrote it) so they failed to trust Christ. Because christ did not fit their view of the messiah,they did not think they needed saved because of their history

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

And there is temporary faith. As those in Hebrews 6:5.

I see no faith in Hebrew 6:5

I see the author pleading with jews not to return to law. By showing, if a person was saved, and they fell away, it would be impossible to renew them again to repentance.

According to the law. The sacrifice on atonement day gave Israel a clean slate. They were all “symbolically” perfect.

Now the first time they sin, they fall away, and more sacrifice is required. Ie they must be renewed to repentance.



A person can not lose salvation, So a person can not have temporary faith.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That does not tell me what, according to you, does produce salvific faith, but only what, according to you, is its source.

Well yes

The source if my faith is always the one we trust.

My faith in God. My source is God

My faith in my parents.My source is my parents.

My faith in whoever, My source is them.

I tried to get you to see this with the questions I asked. But I guess I failed..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Sometimes I'm not sure if people actually know how to answer certain things. Know what I mean?

Some things you answer with questions.. Because it draws people out.

I have showed where I believe my source of faith is so many times in this chatroom. I figured there was no use in saying the stuff over the same way expecting a different result.

I am thankful people did this for me.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Then there is always that 4th kind of faith. Miraculous faith.
This is the faith that leads people to believe that they can perform miracles themselves or that miracles are to be performed on them.

Faith of a mustard seed.

If faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain ( a miracle)

How much faith does it take to recieve the gift of salvation?

I do not think it takes greater faith than this.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes, the reformers also taught this. Saving faith includes these three elements. Knowledge, assent, and trust.

Charles Hodge said concerning this, "the faith which is required for salvation, is the act of the whole soul, of the understanding, of the heart, and of the will."

Is this what happened with the tax collector?

I know this is what happened to me.

I do not need fancy words to show me this,,

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I like to say, our Trichotomous Essence involves these three faiths. Bodily, we Know and find it Noteworthy. Soulfully, we Assent that it's True; and are without excuses. Spiritually, we entrust ourselves to the Truth...

Of course, our Spirit needs to be Regenerated...

And it will be, when it is justified and forgiven of all sin,
Until then, it is dead in tresspasses and sins

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The presentation of the gospel does not in itself compel faith in the person.

Amen

And this isn't because of any deficiency in the gospel.

Again amen, if it did, then everyone would be saved, Because everyone who heard would believe, but we know this is not true

(The lion of Princeton) Dr. Warfield said this: If evidence which is objectively adequate is not subjectively adequate, the fault is in us. If we are not accessible to musical evidence, then we are by nature unmusical, or in a present state of unmusicalness. If we are not accessible to moral evidence, then we are either unmoral or being moral beings, immoral."

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Do you believe God's way is just helping people along?

I believe this is what his purpose and hope is. I think we see that in his creation. And in his reaction to his people. In his great patience. And in his walk while here on the earth.

But illumination alone is not enough to enable a man to believe.

Why not?

The natural enmity against God must be done away with is we are to entrust ourselves to Christ. Don't you think?

Again, God can overcome this.. He has for 6000 years now.

Sounds like a man just has to make a wish.

If this was all. Then again, everyone would be saved.

Everyone wishes to be saved and not die. But not everyone will see or believe what it takes.

It is against human nature to see you are so depraved and so unworthy you can not even HELP in your salvation. Thats why religion is so revelant. Its easier to believe in religion that it is to be an atheist.

It’s hard to become poor in spirit. And be like the tax collector.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I don't mean to sound rude, but in a sense, that's all it is is a wish. Where is it taught that a man can believe or disbelieve because he just chooses to?

John 1, John 3,JOhn 4, Jphn 5. John 6 just to name a few.

Faith is an involuntary response of the mind to the evidence which has been presented to it. Faith is never a product of choice.

Your right, CHoise is a product of faith

We chose what we trust.

We will reject what we do not trust.

I can believe somethign to be true. But not have any trust in that thing,,

Also, isn't faith always grounded on what the mind considers sufficient evidence? of course, we know sometimes the mind considers weak evidence for strong evidence.

God knows how much evidence we need. He also knows some will need more evidence than others. Thats why he knows what it would take..

 

[Arial]

Again, God can overcome this.. He has for 6000 years now.

Then why did Jesus have to go to the cross?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Let me get this straight. The natural man cannot understand the things of God. (1 Col ?) But scripture tells us (Romans 1)he already understands God?

Have you read romans 1?

Paul wrote both those things. Did he contradict himself?

No of course he did not

The things of God is the context of 1 cor

GOD is the context of romans 1

The things of God would be things about him, things he wants us to do. The things we as believers spend a lifetime trying to learn and sadly many of us will never figure this out

God on the other hand is him, THE KNOW GOD.. Thats what Paul said. But they HIDE the truth of God in their heart.
They KNEW they are rightly condemned. But they love their sin.. so they make a God who will not condemn them.

Why would you do this. Make a God that will nto condemn you , if you do not know God already

As i said yesterday, Romans 3 is the end of this whole process.. The world (chapter 1)The religious or the jews (chapter 2) and the law. It does not matter, because the world is condemned without the law. And the jews are condemned by the law

Chapter 3 says being justified FREELY, Here, Paul says it better than I can

21: But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:21–26, NKJV)

See, Both groups are guilty (rom 1 and rom 2)
But the righteousness of Christ is being revealed. (It is revealed to both groups)
We are justified by his grace FREELY (it costs us nothing, But it cost CHrist his life (redemption)
And who is given this righteousness? Who is justified? Those typo whome have faith, faith in what? The righteousness of God. The gospel.

Romans 1 does not tell us that the natural man understands God. It says we know of his existence by the things that are created. There is no saving knowledge of God gained from nature. And unregenerate man is always guilty and without excuse before a holy God no matter how much he does or doesn't know or understand.

Romans 1 says everyone understand good..Everyone would include you and me and everyone else on earth. And everyone who came before us
He does understand, Romans 1 - 3 proves this

Where is Jesus as the only way to God, in that "gospel'?

Do what????

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yea right!

Right, it has to be one or the other. Can't be both.

Yet it is both