Can a non elect person get saved?

[prism]

You are going around in circles. I don't have time for the likes of that nonsense.

Ditto

 

[David1701]

No, actually I struggle with this point thinking the 'nonelect' could use their 'nonelectness' as an excuse for their condemnation in the Judgement.

They cannot use the fact that they were not chosen for salvation as an excuse. Just as criminals on death row cannot use the fact that they were not chosen for a pardon as an excuse to avoid execution for their crimes.

 

[prism]

They cannot use the fact that they were not chosen for salvation as an excuse. Just as criminals on death row cannot use the fact that they were not chosen for a pardon as an excuse to avoid execution for their crimes.

Apples and oranges. Those on death row could appeal if some who were guilty of murder were chosen to go free while the death row inmate still faced the death penalty.

 

[David1701]

Apples and oranges. Those on death row could appeal if some who were guilty of murder were chosen to go free while the death row inmate still faced the death penalty.

Valid appeals are based on not having committed the crime. Sinners have no such appeal, at the court of the LORD.

 

[prism]

Valid appeals are based on not having committed the crime. Sinners have no such appeal, at the court of the LORD.

Since we are all sinners...yet some get chosen to skip, while others stand guilty facing a Christless eternity.. Check.

 

[David1701]

Since we are all sinners...yet some get chosen to skip, while others stand guilty facing a Christless eternity.. Check.

Those who are judged according to their works can have no complaints, since they are judged justly.

Those who are pardoned receive mercy and no sinner has a right to that. It is God's prerogative to give mercy to whom he will and to give justice to the rest.

 

[prism]

Those who are judged according to their works can have no complaints, since they are judged justly.

Those who are pardoned receive mercy and no sinner has a right to that. It is God's prerogative to give mercy to whom he will and to give justice to the rest.

Which brings me back to my concern in post #9

 

[David1701]

Which brings me back to my concern in post #9

Where is the excuse for a justly convicted criminal? There is none!

 

[prism]

Where is the excuse for a justly convicted criminal? There is none!

My point was (because of election), the 'justly convicted criminal' could say, " The only reason my neighbor goes free, and I don't is because you elected him unto salvation, and not me.
(I'm personally not against election, I just wonder if there's another way to understand it?)

 

[David1701]

My point was (because of election), the 'justly convicted criminal' could say, " The only reason my neighbor goes free, and I don't is because you elected him unto salvation, and not me.
(I'm personally not against election, I just wonder if there's another way to understand it?)

The reason why the one who gets justice is punished, is because of his crime.

The reason why the one who is pardoned is not punished, is because Jesus was punished in his place.

To say that God chose to pardon one sinner and not another is simply to declare God's prerogative. The one given justice has no excuse whatever.

 

[prism]

The reason why the one who gets justice is punished, is because of his crime.

We're all guilty sinner, or are some guiltier than others?

The reason why the one who is pardoned is not punished, is because Jesus was punished in his place.

Fine, but some are still punished (the non elect )

To say that God chose to pardon one sinner and not another is simply to declare God's prerogative. The one given justice has no excuse whatever.

Yes it is His prerogative, after all He is God. I just don't get the election thingy. Other than that it is freewill which I totally don't get

 

[JIM]

Valid appeals are based on not having committed the crime. Sinners have no such appeal, at the court of the LORD.

Of course they do. John 13:20 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me."

 

[David1701]

We're all guilty sinner, or are some guiltier than others?

Yes, some have more guilt than others; but that is nothing to do with who gets saved.

Fine, but some are still punished (the non elect )

Yes, of course some are still punished, because God is just.

Yes it is His prerogative, after all He is God. I just don't get the election thingy. Other than that it is freewill which I totally don't get

Election is about God not wanting to send all of fallen humanity to hell. He decided to give some a completely undeserved pardon, to show his mercy and grace (if everyone went to hell, then all we would see is God's justice).

 

[prism]

Yes, some have more guilt than others; but that is nothing to do with who gets saved.


Yes, of course some are still punished, because God is just.

Election is about God not wanting to send all of fallen humanity to hell. He decided to give some a completely undeserved pardon, to show his mercy and grace (if everyone went to hell, then all we would see is God's justice).

Never mind, I'm already familiar with these talking points, I was hoping for a biblical explanation from Scripture.

 

[David1701]

Never mind, I'm already familiar with these talking points, I was hoping for a biblical explanation from Scripture.

An explanation of what, exactly?

I'll certainly try to give you a biblical explanation, if your questions are specific.

 

[prism]

An explanation of what, exactly?

I'll certainly try to give you a biblical explanation, if your questions are specific.

It would help if your answers contained Scripture rather than Evangelical talking points which do not answer my question.
The specific question is...How can God fairly judge someone who is not elect?
Maybe there is no Scriptural answer this side of eternity?
In the mean time, I'll settle for an explanation of Rom 9:20-21.

 

[makesends]

It would help if your answers contained Scripture rather than Evangelical talking points which do not answer my question.
The specific question is...How can God fairly judge someone who is not elect?
Maybe there is no Scriptural answer this side of eternity?
In the mean time, I'll settle for an explanation of Rom 9:20-21.

To my mind Matthew 20 answers it. Does the owner of the vineyard not have the right to do as he pleases with his own money? So why object when he is generous towards some?

 

[prism]

To my mind Matthew 20 answers it. Does the owner of the vineyard not have the right to do as he pleases with his own money? So why object when he is generous towards some?

Matthew 20:7 NKJV
They said to him, 'Because no one hired us.' He said to them, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.'

Election unto grace and hiring for wages have little in common. No?

 

[makesends]

Matthew 20:7 NKJV
They said to him, 'Because no one hired us.' He said to them, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.'

Election unto grace and hiring for wages have little in common. No?

I've been hired for grace. I don't deserve what God has done for me.

 

[prism]

I've been hired for grace. I don't deserve what God has done for me.

At least you were hired for grace (elect/chosen), what about those who weren't?
Romans 4:4 ESV
Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.