By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

[brightfame52]

in Ro 3:9-20; i.e., all mankind is born unrighteous by nature.

Now thats True

 

[Eleanor]

False, except the elect have the same wrath wortthy nature, they are not under wrath. What for ? Their sins have been paid for by Christ

The application of Christ's payment does not occur until they are born again.
No unregenerate is saved from condemnation apart from faith in Jesus (Jn 3:18).[/U][/U]

 

[Josheb]

in Ro 3:9-20; i.e., all mankind is born unrighteous by nature.

Now thats True

What are the consequences of being born unrighteous by nature?

 

[brightfame52]

The application of Christ's payment does not occur until they are born again.
No unregenerate is saved from condemnation apart from faith in Jesus (Jn 3:18).[/U][/U]

False only the Father needed to be satisfied with what the Son did and what He did put away the sins of the elect. Are you denying that Christ death put away the sins of the elect?

 

[brightfame52]

What are the consequences of being born unrighteous by nature?

Mercy

 

[Josheb]

Mercy

Not before death. The wages of sin is death. That is explicitly stated in scripture.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Does the verse explicitly state sin begets death, or not?

Furthermore, scripture likewise states wrath is a result of sin

Romans 1:18-19
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth [m]in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

Ephesians 5:5-8
5For this you know with certainty, that no sexually immoral or [f]impure or greedy person, which amounts to an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6See that no one deceives you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7Therefore do not become partners with them; 8for you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light...

Mercy comes only to those upon whom God has mercy. It is not the automatic or inherent response to being born unrighteous by nature.

Romans 9:13-16 ESV
13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

I asked, "What are the consequences of being born unrighteous by nature?" Mercy is not the correct answer. Being born unrighteous by nature is sin.

1 John 5:17 KJV
All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

The wages of sin is death and that is the case for everyone had God not already intervened to provide an alternative. Some receive mercy. Some from among the population of all sinfully dead and enslaved sinners receive mercy (and all else that is entailed when saved from sin and wrath).

Romans 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

It is from wrath that we, the saved, are saved. The op is incorrect.




Can I get an answer to the question asked in Post #40? Did God make sin?




.

 

[brightfame52]

Not before death. The wages of sin is death. That is explicitly stated in scripture.

That's why the elect are called vessels of Mercy, because they are born into this world sinful wretched in need of Mercy, Christ took care of their Justice and deserve punishment

 

[Josheb]

That's why the elect are called vessels of Mercy, because they are born into this world sinful wretched in need of Mercy, Christ took care of their Justice and deserve punishment

Put the rest of it together. They need mercy because without that mercy they are objects of wrath according to the verses I quoted in the previous post.


Did God make sin?

 

[brightfame52]

They need mercy because without that mercy they are objects of wrath

False because they are sinners! Christ died for their sins and God is propitiated for them.

 

[Eleanor]

False only the Father needed to be satisfied with what the Son did and what He did put away the sins of the elect. Are you denying that Christ death put away the sins of the elect?

It's not about what, it's about when it is applied in time.

 

[brightfame52]

It's not about what, it's about when it is applied in time.

It's about what Christ accomplished with the Father. The elect are beneficiaries. No applications needed, it's a finished legal transaction with the Father and Son

 

[Eleanor]

It's about what Christ accomplished with the Father. The elect are beneficiaries. No applications needed, it's a finished legal transaction with the Father and Son

Contraire. . .

There is no salvation apart from faith (Eph 2:8-9), and no one is born with faith.

You are substituting your own natural order for God's natural order revealed in Scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

There is no salvation apart from faith (Eph 2:8-9), and no one is born with faith

Absolutely false, those Christ for are saved from the penalty of their sins before they are born.

 

[Arial]

It's about what Christ accomplished with the Father. The elect are beneficiaries. No applications needed, it's a finished legal transaction with the Father and Son

What do you think the Spirit is doing in John 3?

 

[brightfame52]

What do you think the Spirit is doing in John 3?

Not putting away your sins like Christ did.

 

[Arial]

Not putting away your sins like Christ did.

I ask what he was doing. Not what he wasn't doing.

 

[Josheb]

False because they are sinners! Christ died for their sins and God is propitiated for them.

False dichotomy. Being created good, becoming a sinner, a former object of wrath, an eventual object of mercy, and having Christ die as a propitiation are not mutually exclusive conditions. What need of propitiation does a good human have?

Did God make sin?

 

[brightfame52]

I ask what he was doing. Not what he wasn't doing.

This discussion isn't about the work of the Holy spirit it's about the work of Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

False dichotomy. Being created good, becoming a sinner, a former object of wrath, an eventual object of mercy, and having Christ die as a propitiation are not mutually exclusive conditions. What need of propitiation does a good human have?

Did God make sin?

The elect are never under wrath, wrath is due to sin, the penalty of sin. But Christ satisfied that penalty by His Death for them. They never experience God's wrath for sin. They're vessels of mercy

 

[Arial]

This discussion isn't about the work of the Holy spirit it's about the work of Christ.

That is why I ask the question. It was in response to this:

It's about what Christ accomplished with the Father. The elect are beneficiaries. No applications needed, it's a finished legal transaction with the Father and Son

If no application of what Christ accomplished was needed, what do you think the Spirit was doing in John 3?