By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

[Josheb]

False, God created two sets of people, one set for wrath and destruction for sin, the other set for mercy and Glory from sin

According to Genesis 1:31 that is incorrect.

Notice one of the other mistakes you've made (multiple times) is that you've taken verses about circumstances and events that occurred after creation and assumed they applied at creation. Which is one of the reasons I have asked the question I've asked.


When God created the heavens and the earth was everything He made good?


.

 

[brightfame52]

See even though the Elect will experience another nature via the New Birth, which will grant unto them Faith and Repentance and other fruit of the Spirit unto good works, Yet this new nature wasnt necessary to legally justify them or acquit them from Gods Wrath, that was accomplished solely by the merits of Christs obedience unto death on their behalf Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Having suffered, he will reflect on his work, he will be satisfied when he understands what he has done. “My servant will acquit many, for he carried their sins. NET

Thats why its declared He acuits/justifies the ungodly Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[brightfame52]

According to Genesis 1:31 that is incorrect.

No its not

 

[Josheb]

See even though the Elect will experience another nature via the New Birth, which will grant unto them Faith and Repentance and other fruit of the Spirit unto good works, Yet this new nature wasnt necessary to legally justify them or acquit them from Gods Wrath, that was accomplished solely by the merits of Christs obedience unto death on their behalf Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Having suffered, he will reflect on his work, he will be satisfied when he understands what he has done. “My servant will acquit many, for he carried their sins. NET

Thats why its declared He acuits/justifies the ungodly Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Relevance?

I thought the op was about whether or not the elect were ever being objects of wrath.

 

[Josheb]

No its not

Well, let's take a look at what the verse explicitly states so this disagreement can be resolved.

Genesis 1:31 Hebrew Transliteration
And saw God everything that He had made and indeed [it was] good very and there was morning day the sixth.

Genesis 1:31 NAS
And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Genesis 1:31 KJV
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 1:31 ESV
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Genesis 1:31 LSV
And God sees all that He has done, and behold, [it is] very good; and there is an evening, and there is a morning—the sixth day.

Genesis 1:31 YLT
And God seeth all that He hath done, and lo, very good; and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day the sixth.

Genesis 1:31 NIV
God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Genesis 1:31 NLT
Then God looked over all he had made, and he saw that it was very good! And evening passed and morning came, marking the sixth day.


The verse explicitly states everything God made was good.

Is that what the verse states, or not?

 

[brightfame52]

Relevance?

I thought the op was about whether or not the elect were ever being objects of wrath.

What you mean relevance ? Think through it

 

[brightfame52]

Well, let's take a look at what the verse explicitly states so this disagreement can be resolved.

Okay, everything was very good, relevance

 

[Josheb]

What you mean relevance ? Think through it

No. You think it through. If "the Elect will experience another nature via the New Birth," that means they had a different nature prior to the new birth. The only two options are 1) good nature, and 2) bad nature. If the new birth nature is good, then that means the pre-birth nature is not good. Either that or there are two types of good and if that is what you are asserting - if you are claiming there are two versions of good - then the onus is on you to prove that position.

Will you please address Post 25? Does Genesis 1:31 state everything God made was good, or not?

 

[brightfame52]

No. You think it through

I have already

 

[Josheb]

I have already

No, you have not. A position that contains multiple contradictions and multiple examples of misused scripture and multiple logical fallacies in its defense is not something that has been thought through.

Will you please answer the question asked in Post 25? Does Genesis 1:31 state everything God made was good, or not?

 

[brightfame52]

Sinners who Christ died for, His Sheep/Elect, before they believe, God by Christs death for them has been propitiated 1 Jn 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

That word propitiation hilasmos:

a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice. hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath,

removal of wrath from sinners. When God's wrath against a sinner is propitiated, it is removed from that sinner. And the result is that all God's power now flows in the service of his mercy, with the result that nothing can stop him from saving that sinner.nal

So therefore if we believe Christs death was truly a propitiation Godward, its impossible for anyone Christ died for, namely His Elect Chosen in Christ before the foundation, to ever be under His Wrath, for that outright contradicts Christs propitiating death for them ! Remember Gods wrath is the punishment for our sins Eph 5:6; Col 3:6 !

 

[brightfame52]

No, you have not. A position that contains multiple contradictions and multiple examples of misused scripture and multiple logical fallacies in its defense is not something that has been thought through.

Thats your opinion of my response

 

[Josheb]

Thats your opinion of my response

Does Genesis 1:31 state that which God made was good, or not?

 

[brightfame52]

Does Genesis 1:31 state that which God made was good, or not?

already answered

 

[brightfame52]

The Elect aren't under Gods wrath at anytime, not even while they are by nature children of wrath like others Eph 2:3 ! The reason being is because all what they are by nature as ungodly rebels and sinners, has already been laid upon Christ, and He has provided satisfaction to Gods Justice for what they are by nature. God needs no more satisfaction against their sins, He's appeased on their behalf.

 

[makesends]

The Elect aren't under Gods wrath at anytime, not even while they are by nature children of wrath like others Eph 2:3 ! The reason being is because all what they are by nature as ungodly rebels and sinners, has already been laid upon Christ, and He has provided satisfaction to Gods Justice for what they are by nature. God needs no more satisfaction against their sins, He's appeased on their behalf.

What does "UNDER God's wrath" mean there? This is playing with words. When you consider that God is not bound by time, it doesn't mean much to say that they are not under God's wrath "at any time". Does God see those he created for Heaven to be complete as soon as he spoke them into creation? Yes. Does he see them as not yet complete? Yes.

So why go on as though temporal considerations are the only valid considerations? You are mixing the temporal with the eternal—not reconciling them.

 

[Eleanor]

Eph 2:3
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Who are the we here Paul is referring to as by nature were being the children of wrath ? No doubt he included himself by employing the pronoun we.
He's meaning believers as himself, even the Chosen ones in Christ before the foundation of the world as characterize in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Now with this established as to whom Paul is writing of in Eph 2:3 as once being the children of wrath as others, does this designation mean that at one time believers, the Chosen of God were by nature under Gods wrath ? Absolutely not, by no means possible were the believers in Christ, the Chosen of God ever under Gods Wrath as others. Neither does it read in Eph 2:3 that any were under Gods wrath.

We all ( including the elect) are by (fallen) nature born under God's wrath according to (Eph 2:3), as well as Ro 1:18-20, 2:5, 9:22).

So what does Paul mean here by this designation " were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."?

Paul means precisely what he states in Eph 2:3, and in what he demonstrates in Ro 3:9-20; i.e., all mankind is born unrighteous by nature.
He does not mean some contrived explanation in contradiction of his own text.

 

[brightfame52]

What does "UNDER God's wrath" mean there?

Like when it says this Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[brightfame52]

All, including the elect, are by (fallen) nature born under God's wrath according to (Eph 2:3), as well as Ro 1:18-20, 2:5, 9:22).

False, except the elect have the same wrath wortthy nature, they are not under wrath. What for ? Their sins have been paid for by Christ

 

[Josheb]

already answered

Just checking because the answer posted is incorrect and that incorrect answer is one of the many critically fatal errors in the op. Everything God made was good. That is explicitly stated in the verse. That means no human God made was bad. God does not make bad stuff and call it good. Nor does he approve of those who so. No doctrine of scriptural anthropology can begin with God creating two different kinds of people, one good and one evil, because it contradicts scripture.

Next question: Did God make sin?