By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

[brightfame52]

Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Who are the we here Paul is referring to as by nature were being the children of wrath ? No doubt he included himself by employing the pronoun we.

He's meaning believers as himself, even the Chosen ones in Christ before the foundation of the world as characterize in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Now with this established as to whom Paul is writing of in Eph 2:3 as once being the children of wrath as others, does this designation mean that at one time believers, the Chosen of God were by nature under Gods wrath ? Absolutely not, by no means possible were the believers in Christ, the Chosen of God ever under Gods Wrath as others. Neither does it read in Eph 2:3 that any were under Gods wrath.

So what does Paul mean here by this designation " were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."?

Here are a few things Paul may mean. There are men and women that are definitely under Gods wrath, these would be the vessels of wrath, who are destined for wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now by nature the Chosen of God when unbelievers do visibly appear as vessels of wrath fitted for destruction simply because they sinners naturally like they are.

And being sinners as the vessels of wrath are, they are also most deserving of Gods wrath and destruction as all men are by nature.

And also, by nature the Chosen are wrathful children towards God as other sinners are, meaning their disposition towards the True God is one of wrathful, enmity against Him as in Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

The word for enemies here in the above is the word echthros :

From a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile)

1. hated, odious, hateful
2. hostile, hating, and opposing another
   1. used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
      1. opposing (God) in the mind

And the word hateful means resentful, even wrathful !

The elect/chosen by nature as in common with all other men are carnal in the flesh, and heres what Paul writes about them in the flesh Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity[hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Yet with all this foul disposition we naturally have against the True God, as the Chosen of God, they're never under Gods wrath . They are never vessels of wrath God is fitting for destruction, Gods disposition towards them, even when they are enemies towards Himself, is one of Love, Mercy, and Reconciliation, and Peace through the death of Christ for them. Rom 5:8,10;Eph 2:4; 1 Jn 2:2

So believers, the Chosen in Christ are never under Gods Wrath and scripture doesnt anywhere teach that, not even Eph 2:3 !

 

[Josheb]

Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Who are the we here Paul is referring to as by nature were being the children of wrath ? No doubt he included himself by employing the pronoun we.

He's meaning believers as himself, even the Chosen ones in Christ before the foundation of the world as characterize in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Now with this established as to whom Paul is writing of in Eph 2:3 as once being the children of wrath as others, does this designation mean that at one time believers, the Chosen of God were by nature under Gods wrath ? Absolutely not, by no means possible were the believers in Christ, the Chosen of God ever under Gods Wrath as others. Neither does it read in Eph 2:3 that any were under Gods wrath.

So what does Paul mean here by this designation " were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."?

Here are a few things Paul may mean. There are men and women that are definitely under Gods wrath, these would be the vessels of wrath, who are destined for wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now by nature the Chosen of God when unbelievers do visibly appear as vessels of wrath fitted for destruction simply because they sinners naturally like they are.

And being sinners as the vessels of wrath are, they are also most deserving of Gods wrath and destruction as all men are by nature.

And also, by nature the Chosen are wrathful children towards God as other sinners are, meaning their disposition towards the True God is one of wrathful, enmity against Him as in Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

The word for enemies here in the above is the word echthros :

From a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile)

1. hated, odious, hateful
2. hostile, hating, and opposing another
   1. used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
      1. opposing (God) in the mind

And the word hateful means resentful, even wrathful !

The elect/chosen by nature as in common with all other men are carnal in the flesh, and heres what Paul writes about them in the flesh Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity[hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Yet with all this foul disposition we naturally have against the True God, as the Chosen of God, they're never under Gods wrath . They are never vessels of wrath God is fitting for destruction, Gods disposition towards them, even when they are enemies towards Himself, is one of Love, Mercy, and Reconciliation, and Peace through the death of Christ for them. Rom 5:8,10;Eph 2:4; 1 Jn 2:2

So believers, the Chosen in Christ are never under Gods Wrath and scripture doesnt anywhere teach that, not even Eph 2:3 !

Point of clarification: Do you mean to say "we," those chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, were once objects of wrath but now, having come to salvation by grace through faith in Christ, are no longer and will never again be objects of wrath? Or do you mean to say the "we" Ephesians 2:3 does not apply to the elect and, therefore, the elect were never objects of wrath?

 

[brightfame52]

Point of clarification: Do you mean to say "we," those chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, were once objects of wrath but now, having come to salvation by grace through faith in Christ, are no longer and will never again be objects of wrath? Or do you mean to say the "we" Ephesians 2:3 does not apply to the elect and, therefore, the elect were never objects of wrath?

I just explained myself in the post

 

[Josheb]

I just explained myself in the post

And I have asked for clarification of a single point because the explanation provided is unclear. The last line states, "So believers, the Chosen in Christ are never under Gods Wrath and scripture doesn't anywhere teach that, not even Eph 2:3!" If that is true exactly as written, then the statements, "Who are the we here Paul is referring to as by nature were being the children of wrath ? No doubt he included himself by employing the pronoun we. He's meaning believers as himself, even the Chosen ones in Christ before the foundation of the world as characterize in Eph 1:4." is incorrect." Conversely, if the converted Paul is including himself among those previously considered objects of wrath, then the last statement of the op is incorrect. That needs to be clarified. If the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world and Paul was both among the elect and once an object of wrath, then it cannot be said, "... the Chosen in Christ are never under Gods Wrath..." Some qualifier appears to be needed. You may have made the case perfectly, but I may not be adequately understanding it. Help me do so.

"So believers, the Chosen in Christ are never [again] under Gods Wrath and scripture doesn't anywhere teach that, not even Eph 2:3!"​

OR​

"So believers, the Chosen in Christ [were] never under Gods Wrath and scripture doesnt anywhere teach that, not even Eph 2:3 !"​

So, could I please get some clarification on that matter so I know how to proceed with the op? I'll make it easy: An answer as simple as "1" or "2" will suffice. Is the op to be understood as saying,

1. "we," those chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, were once objects of wrath but now, having come to salvation by grace through faith in Christ, are no longer and will never again be objects of wrath?
2. the "we" in Ephesians 2:3 does not apply to the elect and, therefore, the elect never were, never are, and never will be objects of wrath?

See, I even clarified my own inquiry . I very much appreciate the opportunity to do so . Option 1 takes the conversation in one direction, and option 2 takes the conversation in another. I'd like to know which. Just tell me which number above is correct.

 

[makesends]

Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Who are the we here Paul is referring to as by nature were being the children of wrath ? No doubt he included himself by employing the pronoun we.

He's meaning believers as himself, even the Chosen ones in Christ before the foundation of the world as characterize in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Now with this established as to whom Paul is writing of in Eph 2:3 as once being the children of wrath as others, does this designation mean that at one time believers, the Chosen of God were by nature under Gods wrath ? Absolutely not, by no means possible were the believers in Christ, the Chosen of God ever under Gods Wrath as others. Neither does it read in Eph 2:3 that any were under Gods wrath.

So what does Paul mean here by this designation " were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."?

Here are a few things Paul may mean. There are men and women that are definitely under Gods wrath, these would be the vessels of wrath, who are destined for wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now by nature the Chosen of God when unbelievers do visibly appear as vessels of wrath fitted for destruction simply because they sinners naturally like they are.

And being sinners as the vessels of wrath are, they are also most deserving of Gods wrath and destruction as all men are by nature.

And also, by nature the Chosen are wrathful children towards God as other sinners are, meaning their disposition towards the True God is one of wrathful, enmity against Him as in Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

The word for enemies here in the above is the word echthros :

From a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile)

1. hated, odious, hateful
2. hostile, hating, and opposing another
   1. used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
      1. opposing (God) in the mind

And the word hateful means resentful, even wrathful !

The elect/chosen by nature as in common with all other men are carnal in the flesh, and heres what Paul writes about them in the flesh Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity[hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Yet with all this foul disposition we naturally have against the True God, as the Chosen of God, they're never under Gods wrath . They are never vessels of wrath God is fitting for destruction, Gods disposition towards them, even when they are enemies towards Himself, is one of Love, Mercy, and Reconciliation, and Peace through the death of Christ for them. Rom 5:8,10;Eph 2:4; 1 Jn 2:2

So believers, the Chosen in Christ are never under Gods Wrath and scripture doesnt anywhere teach that, not even Eph 2:3 !

You say:

​

Here are a few things Paul may mean. There are men and women that are definitely under Gods wrath, these would be the vessels of wrath, who are destined for wrath Rom 9:22​

​

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:​

​

Yet with all this foul disposition we naturally have against the True God, as the Chosen of God, they're never under Gods wrath . They are never vessels of wrath God is fitting for destruction, Gods disposition towards them, even when they are enemies towards Himself, is one of Love, Mercy, and Reconciliation, and Peace through the death of Christ for them. Rom 5:8,10;Eph 2:4; 1 Jn 2:2​

Notice the subtle difference here:

Before quoting Romans 9 you say, rightly under caveat that it is [only] one way to look at it —one of the "few things Paul may mean"— that these are "children destined for wrath."

But, as you quote it, he says, "vessels of wrath FITTED TO destruction". (Other versions show, variously, "prepared for" and "fitted for" and "fitted unto". The Greek translated "fitted" in the KJV, according to Strong's, literally is, "to complete thoroughly, i.e. to repair or adjust". (Note: This is not just the simply human view of God 'predestining' them to whatever end they choose, but God having determined and having caused them to be that.))

But then you add to the translation, for your own effect, that those who were Chosen of God were "never under God's wrath". You say, "...were never vessels of wrath God IS FITTING FOR destruction (my emphasis). Romans 9:22 does not say that. Sorry, but that is a purely human way to put it, a way that God does not put it —at least not in that verse. We see elsewhere that God did never INTEND that they were to be destroyed, but to say that they were not at any point under wrath is more than the verse says or even implies.

 

[brightfame52]

The Elect/Chosen are never under Gods Wrath because Christ has already been made sin for them 2 Cor 5:21, and God doesnt impute sin to them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So consequently where's there no sin imputed there's no wrath ! The wrath of God is upon imputed sin Rom 1:18


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

But this ungodliness and unrighteousness of sin isn't imputed to the Elect 2 Cor 5:19

Eph 5:5-6

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

But none of these things listed in Vs 5 are imputed to the elect so no wrath ! 2 Cor 5:19

Col 3:5-6

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

But none of these things in Vs 5 are imputed to the chosen, so no wrath

The reason for this blessedness is because all those sins when it comes to Gods chosen, have already came under the wrath of God as they were charged to Christ 2 Cor 5:21. And that was before the chosen ones were born !

 

[brightfame52]

So, could I please get some clarification on that matter so I know how to proceed with the op?

As I post, i will be clarifying

 

[brightfame52]

You say:

​

Here are a few things Paul may mean. There are men and women that are definitely under Gods wrath, these would be the vessels of wrath, who are destined for wrath Rom 9:22​

​

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:​

​

Yet with all this foul disposition we naturally have against the True God, as the Chosen of God, they're never under Gods wrath . They are never vessels of wrath God is fitting for destruction, Gods disposition towards them, even when they are enemies towards Himself, is one of Love, Mercy, and Reconciliation, and Peace through the death of Christ for them. Rom 5:8,10;Eph 2:4; 1 Jn 2:2​

Notice the subtle difference here:

Before quoting Romans 9 you say, rightly under caveat that it is [only] one way to look at it —one of the "few things Paul may mean"— that these are "children destined for wrath."

But, as you quote it, he says, "vessels of wrath FITTED TO destruction". (Other versions show, variously, "prepared for" and "fitted for" and "fitted unto". The Greek translated "fitted" in the KJV, according to Strong's, literally is, "to complete thoroughly, i.e. to repair or adjust". (Note: This is not just the simply human view of God 'predestining' them to whatever end they choose, but God having determined and having caused them to be that.))

But then you add to the translation, for your own effect, that those who were Chosen of God were "never under God's wrath". You say, "...were never vessels of wrath God IS FITTING FOR destruction (my emphasis). Romans 9:22 does not say that. Sorry, but that is a purely human way to put it, a way that God does not put it —at least not in that verse. We see elsewhere that God did never INTEND that they were to be destroyed, but to say that they were not at any point under wrath is more than the verse says or even implies.

I disagree with you

 

[Josheb]

As I post, i will be clarifying

Then I will proceed without your participation until the matter is clarified and hope other ambiguities do not ensue.


Ephesians 2:3 should be read exactly as written. Everyone (except Christ) who has ever lived was once, or still is, an object of wrath. That is one of the main points of salvation! There'd be no need for salvation from sin and wrath if there were no sin and no commensurate wrath coming to the sinner. Romans 9:22 does not change that fact, it affirms it. Paul had already made it explicitly clear all have sinned and fall short of God's glory, and he made just as explicitly clear the wage for sin is death. Those dead in transgression will die a death those dead in Christ do not, but every single person who is dead in Christ was previously dead in sin. It is from the state of being transgressionally dead that the elect are saved. The statement, "Now by nature the Chosen of God when unbelievers do visibly appear as vessels of wrath fitted for destruction simply because they sinners naturally like they are," cannot be made to say that elect not-yet-believing person is not an object of wrath is written from a completely different context than Ephesians 2:3. The fact the elect were once sinners deserving of destruction is indisputable. The fact the elect will necessarily and inevitably be saved is, likewise, indisputable. That does not change the fact the elect were once objects of wrath because it is only because God brought the elect from death to life the wrathful disposition has changed. The created disposition, the fallen (wrathful) disposition, the redeemed disposition, and the resurrected disposition are all distinct disposition, providential waypoints in the life of a believer. The non-believer has none of the latter waypoints.

Exegetically, Romans 9:22 is a rhetorical question, not a literal one. The fact is God does not make objects specifically for wrath. The answer to Paul's question is, "Thank God He did not make such objects! Praise Him that everything He made was good!" Humans God made were by nature good. They became not-good by their own devices and the moment that happened they became dead in sin and, thereby, objects of wrath. God, in his omni-attributed grace, had already made provision for that inevitability. Scripture calls that already-existing plan "salvation." Salvation entails being moved from being an object of wrath to being an object of acceptance, reconciliation, redemption, and affection.

This is why we have confidence those God elected for salvation from eternity will remain eternally saved once saved. He finishes His work and never fails to do so.

 

[brightfame52]

Ephesians 2:3 should be read exactly as written. Everyone (except Christ) who has ever lived was once, or still is, an object of wrath.

False, not the vessels of mercy Rom 9:23

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

They are clearly contrasted with the vessels of wrath in 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The fact is God does not make objects specifically for wrath.

Yes He did Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Jer 17:18

Let them be confounded that persecute me, but let not me be confounded: let them be dismayed, but let not me be dismayed: bring upon them the day of evil, and destroy them with double destruction.

 

[Josheb]

False, not the vessels of mercy Rom 9:23

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

They are clearly contrasted with the vessels of wrath in 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

You've taken a rhetorical text and treated it as if it's literal. That is a mistake in exegesis. You've also implicitly contradicted yourself. What mercy does someone who is not object of wrath need? By stating the elect are objects of mercy Paul has implied a need thereof. God preparing the objects of mercy "afore" does not mean they would never also be objects of wrath. The two are not mutually exclusive temporally.

All people are objects of wrath.
The elect are objects of wrath temporarily.
The non-elect are objects of wrath perpetually.
The elect who have sinned and thereby become objects of wrath are "prepared unto glory."

No preparation is needed for those who've never sinned. No mercy is needed for those who've never sinned. Everyone who is saved was/is selected from the group known as "sinners." The only non-sinner among the elect is Jesus. The only person among the elect who does not need mercy is Jesus. The only person among the elect who was/is not dead in transgression and sin is Jesus. The elect were ALL at some point sinners. The position claiming some were/are never objects of wrath contradicts Romans 6:23. The word "all" means all. Romans 6:23 does not state the wages of sin is death except for the elect. If the elect did not suffer transgressional death for sin then there'd be no need for mercy, and no need for the gift of eternal life. There'd be no need for Jesus' death on Calvary.

 

[Josheb]

They are clearly contrasted with the vessels of wrath in 9:22

No, the objects of mercy are clearly compared, not contrasted, with the objects of wrath. Do you know the difference between compare and contrast (Google it, if not). Keep in mind this is a hypothetical comparison. The words "what if..." designate what followed as a hypothetical. Ephesians 2:23 is not a hypothetical. Romans 9:22-23 is a hypothetical.

• Monkeys swing from branch to branch.
• What if monkeys sprang wings and flew?

That is the difference being made in Romans 9. What if God made some of the tree-swinging monkeys with wings afore? Well, God did not make any monkeys with wings!!! He gives some of the tree-swinging monkeys the ability to fly but those flying monkeys all came from the tree-swingers.

Yeah, but what if He did?

He didn't.

Paul was asserting a hypothetical.
You have mistakenly taken the hypothetical literally. You've taken it as a statement of fact when it is not a statement of fact. It is a hypothetical. It's a hypothetical used to make a completely different set of points: God has mercy on whom He chooses to have mercy and the creature has no basis for disputing or calling into question God's decision. God could make people any way He chooses. God did make all people one way and they then became something different. God made all humans good. Adam made all humans bad, and each human makes him/herself more bad. From the group of bad people God shows some mercy based on His decision at the founding of creation.

 

[Josheb]

Yes He did Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

That verse proves your argument wrong. You're just not seeing it because you're reading it with a confirmation bias.

God made ALL things.
God made ALL things for Himself.
God made ALL things, even the wicked for the day of evil, for Himself.

The words, "even the wicked" is an intermediate clause. God did not make wicked people. Genesis 1:31 absolutely precludes any and all such interpretations of scripture. Scripture explicitly states EVERYTHING God made was very good. The precludes any and all possibility there was anything God made that was not very good. This two-peoples position requires God to make bad people and then calling them good. That is a huge contradiction. The wicked became the wicked after God made what He made and what He made - ALL of it - was very good. Death came to ALL men as a consequence of Adam's disobedience. It came to them after Adam's disobedience, not because God made bad, evil people. It's not possible to have a good, righteous, holy God making bad stuff and it is definitely not possible to have Him making bad stuff and then calling it good. God abhors that conduct!

That verse could just as easily stated...

God made all things for Himself, even the righteous for the day of judgment.

What the verse does NOT state is God made wicked people. Nowhere in the Bible does such a statement ever occur. God made good people. People make bad people.

Jer. 17:18

Let them be confounded that persecute me, but let not me be confounded: let them be dismayed, but let not me be dismayed: bring upon them the day of evil, and destroy them with double destruction.

You do understand Jeremiah was a sinner who would have suffered the exact same fate as those he was talking about had he not been shown mercy by God? ALL have sinned and fall short of God's glory. ALL, including Jeremiah, have sinned and fall short of God's glory. ALL have sinner and fall short of God's glory AND are in need of God's salvific mercy. He has mercy on whom He has mercy and it does not depend on how the man walks or how the man wills. God's mercy depends solely on God's will and purpose, not that of the creature being shown mercy.

And there'd be no need of for mercy if a person hadn't sinned and become transgressionally dead.


In the opening post you did something very wise. You correctly identified Paul among the "we" in Eph. 2:3...... but then you went against that possibility. The "we" in that verse is identified in the previous chapter at the beginning of the epistle.

Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, to the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus.

That is to whom the "we" in Ephesians 2:3 refers. Ephesians 2:3 could read, "Among them we [the saints who are faithful in Christ Jesus] too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." Ephesians 2:1 explicitly states, "...you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world..." The saints in Ephesus who were faithful in Christ formerly walked according to the course of the world. They were at one point dead in sin. Completely dead in sin. Only after coming to Christ did they become dead to sin.

You have removed verse 3 from verses 1 and 2 and ignored verses 4 and following.

They were once dead in sin but had been made alive in Christ.

 

[Josheb]

@brightfame52,

Here is another way to think about this: being dead in sin is an act of wrath! God did not have to make creation that way. He did so because He hates sin. God could have said, "If you disobey me then I will reward you with a box of chocolates," or "If you disobey me then you won't be allowed to watch tv for a week." God's wrath for sin is so severe He made death the consequence for disobedience. By thinking the subsequent wrath faced in judgment is the only wrath relevant is a huge exegetical mistake.



So, now that some things have been clarified , we see there are multiple exegetical errors in the op and its defense. God did not make two groups of humans. God made one group of humans and that entire population became sinners, bringing upon themselves the wrath of death AND the subsequent wrath of eternal judgment. Blessedly, from that entire one, single, population of sinners God chose some for mercy. He chose some for salvation. ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's mercy. The saints in Ephesus "were dead in your transgressions and sins". They had followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air. They had followed the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. That is what the verse states and that is what the verse means. Romans 9:22 does not change that meaning. Proverbs 16:4 does not change that meaning. Jeremiah 17:18 does not change the meaning of Ephesians 2:3.

 

[brightfame52]

All people are objects of wrath.
The elect are objects of wrath temporarily.

False, they have always been vessels of mercy Rom 9:23 thats how God made them.


And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

The word “afore” carries with it the meaning of “before prepared.” God had written the names of those He planned to save in the Lamb’s Book of Life from the foundation of the world and finalized their salvation when the Lord Jesus Christ went to the cross and cried out “It is finished.” Now the only thing the believer looks forward to is the consummation of the age when God will give us our new spiritual bodies for eternity. Romans 9:23-33

They the vessels of mercy where never appointed to wrath but to obtain salvation 1 Thess 5 9-10

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

 

[brightfame52]

o, the objects of mercy are clearly compared, not contrasted, with the objects of wrath. Do you know the difference between compare and contrast (Google it, if not). Keep in mind this is a hypothetical comparison. The words "what if..." designate what followed as a hypothetical. Ephesians 2:23 is not a hypothetical. Romans 9:22-23 is a hypothetical.

False, God created two sets of people, one set for wrath and destruction for sin, the other set for mercy and Glory from sin

Ephesians 2:23 i

Says nothing about them being objects of Gods wrath, they had a nature like those who are destined for wrath, and by nature they were just as worthy of Gods wrath. Vs 4 reiterates they were objects of Great Love and Mercy 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

 

[brightfame52]

That verse proves your argument wrong.

It proves me correct and scriptural The Lord made the wicked for the day of evil or destruction complimenting Rom 9:22

 

[brightfame52]

Here is another way to think about this: being dead in sin is an act of wrath!

No its not an act of wrath, it was in order to show them mercy in fact

 

[Josheb]

False, they have always been vessels of mercy Rom 9:23 thats how God made them.

That is not what Romans 9:23 states and it is not what Romans 9:23 can be made to say.

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Yep. The riches were prepared beforehand. It was the riches, not the people receiving the riches which had been prepared beforehand. You have misread and misinterpreted the verse.

They the vessels of mercy where never appointed to wrath but to obtain salvation 1 Thess 5 9-10

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Again, the salvation is obtained. It is not something inherent. Those obtaining salvation were sinners and they were dead in transgression.

 

[Josheb]

@brightfame52,

Let's take this one point at a time. Here is a simple yes or no question that does not require any commentary whatsoever. The question can be answered directly and immediately without any obfuscation or delay. From that answer we can build a case, beginning with what is explicitly stated in scripture so that at the foundational level no interpretation is needed, only an agreement with what is plainly stated.


When God created the heavens and the earth was everything He made good?


.